GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #3

[blue22]

Respectfully, this is a hormone raging 12 year old. His brain is barely fully formed enough to tell the difference between a video game and real life. He probably gave up on Santa just a year or two ago. He is a child. I guess I would completely expect overkill in a child because something very powerful was driving him-dont tell me you havent had a tween go off a cliff on you? There was no an adult present and who knows if he was on any kind of stimulant for any reason.

He may be very broken or he may be an impulsive tween who made a choice he cant take back. There is a lot more info that needs to come out before I am convinced he is a lost cause. Kids kill kids, absolutely. It remains to be seen if he was hard wired this way.

Respectfully, I sometimes think thinking like this is dangerous. Which crimes do we explain away with raging hormones? The reason why these crimes are SO incredibly rare (when you take into account how often they happen vs. the population of teens,) is because it's not normal. OK, lets say it's raging hormones. When does that stop, and something else very scary take over? The second stab? The third? The fourth? The fifth? The 21st? What about Jessica Ridgeway's killer? He was a teenager. Can him raping and killing be blamed on hormones? What about all the serial killers who confess to starting raping or killing in their teens? Was that hormones, too? What about teenagers who molest very young children? Is that hormones? Columbine...hormones? It's such a very slippery slope. I seriously hope raging hormones can never be used in any kind of defense. The crimes are outrageous and devastating, because they can't be explained by typical explanations. In my opinion, of course...and respectively so.

I can see impulse being hitting, yelling, throwing, etc. Stabbing 21 times? I just don't understand how that can be explained by hormones and impulse. I wish my mind would let it, to be very honest.

 

[TheDuchess]

:grouphug:

My brother, who is mentally ill, has extreme empathy for animals and almost none for humans. So that can be scary too.

 

[Starry Night]

Respectfully, this is a hormone raging 12 year old. His brain is barely fully formed enough to tell the difference between a video game and real life. He probably gave up on Santa just a year or two ago. He is a child. I guess I would completely expect overkill in a child because something very powerful was driving him-dont tell me you havent had a tween go off a cliff on you? There was no an adult present and who knows if he was on any kind of stimulant for any reason.

He may be very broken or he may be an impulsive tween who made a choice he cant take back. There is a lot more info that needs to come out before I am convinced he is a lost cause. Kids kill kids, absolutely. It remains to be seen if he was hard wired this way.

I love your post. And having 5 brothers while growing up.....well. For that boy to lose his mother and hear about the debate-a 12 year old is quick to take a hard stance. Fight brewing.
They are talking against my mom. They are favoring my sister. The love lost.

Of course I don't excuse this boy-but there are many factors to consider.

 

[Davereid]

Also, I think the "crazy eyes" thing you are talking about is really interesting, because it was definitely apparent in Adam Lanza as well as John Holmes, Charles Manson and Marshall Applewhite (Heaven's Gate Hale Bop Cult) all appear to have this condition often times referred to as Sanpaku eyes.

Sanpaku - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

FWIW-I do not see this condition in the brother.[/QUOTE]

Thank you so much. Adam Lanza and James Holmes do have yang sanpaku where the upper scelera is visible. Although it does say there is no association between psychopaths and yang sanpaku it does seem like there is a strong correlation between the two. The boy does not have that and even though he is not smiling and looks vacant, if I saw this picture and did not know he stabbed his sister 21 times, I would not suspect he is a sociopath or murderer.

 

[Melanie]

Respectfully, I sometimes think thinking like this is dangerous. Which crimes do we explain away with raging hormones? The reason why these crimes are SO incredibly rare (when you take into account how often they happen vs. the population of teens,) is because it's not normal. OK, lets say it's raging hormones. When does that stop, and something else very scary take over? The second stab? The third? The fourth? The fifth? The 21st? What about Jessica Ridgeway's killer? He was a teenager. Can him raping and killing be blamed on hormones? What about all the serial killers who confess to starting raping or killing in their teens? Was that hormones, too? What about teenagers who molest very young children? Is that hormones? Columbine...hormones? It's such a very slippery slope. I seriously hope raging hormones can never be used in any kind of defense. The crimes are outrageous and devastating, because they can't be explained by typical explanations. In my opinion, of course...and respectively so.

I can see impulse being hitting, yelling, throwing, etc. Stabbing 21 times? I just don't understand how that can be explained by hormones and impulse. I wish my mind would let it, to be very honest.

You're right - it is a slippery slope to blame hormones, or meds, etc. Otherwise there should also be a menopause defense (or is there). Stabbing someone 21 times is not normal teenage hormonal behaviour. Maybe we'll find out one day why he did it....

MOO

Mel

 

[TheDuchess]

Respectfully, I sometimes think thinking like this is dangerous. Which crimes do we explain away with raging hormones? The reason why these crimes are SO incredibly rare (when you take into account how often they happen vs. the population of teens,) is because it's not normal. OK, lets say it's raging hormones. When does that stop, and something else very scary take over? The second stab? The third? The fourth? The fifth? The 21st? What about Jessica Ridgeway's killer? He was a teenager. Can him raping and killing be blamed on hormones? What about all the serial killers who confess to starting raping or killing in their teens? Was that hormones, too? What about teenagers who molest very young children? Is that hormones? Columbine...hormones? It's such a very slippery slope. I seriously hope raging hormones can never be used in any kind of defense. The crimes are outrageous and devastating, because they can't be explained by typical explanations. In my opinion, of course...and respectively so.

I can see impulse being hitting, yelling, throwing, etc. Stabbing 21 times? I just don't understand how that can be explained by hormones and impulse. I wish my mind would let it, to be very honest.

ITA-however, I think the poster may have been meaning to say that when there are perhaps deep underlying things going on inside of a child, that the hormones can bring everything to a head, so to speak. Not so much that the hormones are the cause, but are the contributing factor-the straw that broke the camels back, for lack of a better term. Not sure if I am correct, but felt I'd jump in anyway.

 

[starry77]

I wonder if the dad and step mom had IF stay home to watch his little sister while they were at the ballpark? Was he being punished for something and did he feel left out a lot of times?
I think even though he might/probably loved his sister he may have perceived her getting more positive attention, along with all the other kids, and there is quite a few them. Did he feel lost and all alone? I'm really not sure that he was angry with his sister, but maybe angry at someone else, maybe for some time and acted out accordingly.
The biological parents not having a cordial relationship could have contributed to all that anger I think he has inside. So could many other things. I am left wondering if he was abused and if so, how. I'm actually left wondering a lot of things about his childhood.
I know he is accused of doing a horrible thing but I cannot get past the fact that he is twelve years old. Yes, he needs punished but saying to basically throw him away by putting him in with the adults in a prison setting is a bit much. Again, he's twelve. Every life is worth something.

MOO

BBM. He certainly didn't think so. After he is "rehabilitated" would you let him teach your children? Invite him to your house for dinner?

Abuse is not an excuse. Nor is age- he is TWELVE, not three.

The anger could have been redirected to his sister, I agree, but I think it's likely that he resented her as well.

 

[Helenstreet]

Respectfully, I sometimes think thinking like this is dangerous. Which crimes do we explain away with raging hormones? The reason why these crimes are SO incredibly rare (when you take into account how often they happen vs. the population of teens,) is because it's not normal. OK, lets say it's raging hormones. When does that stop, and something else very scary take over? The second stab? The third? The fourth? The fifth? The 21st? What about Jessica Ridgeway's killer? He was a teenager. Can him raping and killing be blamed on hormones? What about all the serial killers who confess to starting raping or killing in their teens? Was that hormones, too? What about teenagers who molest very young children? Is that hormones? Columbine...hormones? It's such a very slippery slope. I seriously hope raging hormones can never be used in any kind of defense. The crimes are outrageous and devastating, because they can't be explained by typical explanations. In my opinion, of course...and respectively so.

I can see impulse being hitting, yelling, throwing, etc. Stabbing 21 times? I just don't understand how that can be explained by hormones and impulse. I wish my mind would let it, to be very honest.

I agree with your entire post--especially the part I put in bold. I just cannot reconcile the concept of a twelve year old boy who stabbed his little, eight year old sister twenty-one times as anything but having a severe psychological disorder. I do understand that he will be released after a maximum of twenty-five years, but unfortunately the chances of the child being rehabilitated are highly unlikely. There is always that sliver of hope though.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I just keep thinking back to James Bulger's killers who were released and then one rearrested for downloading child *advertiser censored*: http://news.sky.com/story/1050348/james-bulger-killer-venables-still-a-danger even James' mother thinks he should be free if ever found stable, she just doesn't have faith that will ever happen.

 

[starry77]

I love your post. And having 5 brothers while growing up.....well. For that boy to lose his mother and hear about the debate-a 12 year old is quick to take a hard stance. Fight brewing.
They are talking against my mom. They are favoring my sister. The love lost.

Of course I don't excuse this boy-but there are many factors to consider.

I don't love the post, in fact I am feeling a little heated by this. If this was your child killed, you would NEVER, EVER condone "hormones" as a factor.

I've taught dozens of angry, abused, neglected, hormonal boys. To even imply that a child in those circumstances killing someone could be explained away so easily as divorce and favoring another child is an extreme disservice to that population, IMO.

What does having 5 brothers have to do with this?

On a side note, though I disagree with your opinion here, I do like your username- the derivation of mine is Starry Night.

 

[The Cheese]

Kevin Oliver ‏@KCRAKevin 19m
#Developing Fowler Relative told me the family doesn't believe Leila's brother is the killer, questioned Sheriff's investigation.

Kevin Oliver ‏@KCRAKevin 16m
Developing: Calaveras school district won't release disciplinary history of #leilafowler murder suspect.

 

[Linda7NJ]

BBM

To me the saddest part is that if he had called 911 right after, she likely would have lived. She hung on while he cleaned up, while they waited for parents and LE to show up, and while waiting for EMT's. If he had called 911 she may have lived.

We don't know she was alive. I read a statement sonewhere that said she was, I'm just not certain and I think we need a more accurate time line.


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[Linda7NJ]

I read all of the reports and the child specifically stated during his confession that there was abuse in the home and that abuse was the reason for the murders. So what part of his confession should one believe more?

I don't want to get into that case call over again, but followed it quite closely at the time. The child had a very awkward family dynamic at the time and a very strange living environment. There was also a bio mom in the picture that wasn't really around much-I won't get into her at this time other than to say that this particular child never had much of an adult support system before, during or after the fact.

I hope that this case is different. They seem like a very close family and I hope they don't turn their back on this boy. First, we do not know all of the facts yet. Second, he is still a minor and will thus be prosecuted as one. He WILL get out by the time he is 25-that is a fact. So the only chance we will have in this situation is for someone to follow him and watch him and do everything in their power to get him the help he needs desperately while they still can. I pray that they can make this work so that when he IS sent out into the real world again, he just might have a chance at being a peaceful member of society and won't hurt anyone else.

I followed it very closely as well. There was zero evidence found. The kid claimed he documented his "spankings" ... He didn't.
To state his relationship with his father and Tiffany wasn't supportive is a lie. We will have to take this to pm if you'd like to continue to discuss, I don't want to keep posting off topic.


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[Helenstreet]

I just keep thinking back to James Bulger's killers who were released and then one rearrested for downloading child *advertiser censored*: http://news.sky.com/story/1050348/james-bulger-killer-venables-still-a-danger even James' mother thinks he should be free if ever found stable, she just doesn't have faith that will ever happen.

I will never forget the image of little James on the railroad tracks gracing the cover of People magazine when that sickening crime occurred. I was completely disgusted and outraged when the two young sociopaths were released after only eight years, and even given new identities. Those two monsters lured that sweet, little baby, tortured him, and murdered him. What a travesty of justice! I feel so very badly for James' poor mother and father! Truly sickening!

 

[Linda7NJ]

Respectfully, this is a hormone raging 12 year old. His brain is barely fully formed enough to tell the difference between a video game and real life. He probably gave up on Santa just a year or two ago. He is a child. I guess I would completely expect overkill in a child because something very powerful was driving him-dont tell me you havent had a tween go off a cliff on you? There was no an adult present and who knows if he was on any kind of stimulant for any reason.

He may be very broken or he may be an impulsive tween who made a choice he cant take back. There is a lot more info that needs to come out before I am convinced he is a lost cause. Kids kill kids, absolutely. It remains to be seen if he was hard wired this way.

I might agree with you... If he didn't stab his very little sister over TWENTY times.


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[eileenhawkeye]

Kevin Oliver ‏@KCRAKevin 19m
#Developing Fowler Relative told me the family doesn't believe Leila's brother is the killer, questioned Sheriff's investigation.

Kevin Oliver ‏@KCRAKevin 16m
Developing: Calaveras school district won't release disciplinary history of #leilafowler murder suspect.

1. Crystal's post on FB (which was picked up by CNN) showed no indication at all that that she (they?) doubt his guilt...but "family" could be many different people.

2. That seems to me that he does have a disciplinary history. However, when I was in middle school, my school gave out detentions extremely easy so without knowing exactly what he did, I don't see this as a huge concern.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I will never forget the image of little James on the railroad tracks gracing the cover of People magazine when that sickening crime occurred. I was completely disgusted and outraged when the two young sociopaths were released after only eight years, and even given new identities. Those two monsters lured that sweet, little baby, tortured him, and murdered him. What a travesty of justice! I feel so very badly for James' poor mother and father! Truly sickening!

Thankfully murderers in the US are not given new identities after they get released from prison. (Although they can change their name on their own doing, I'm assuming).

 

[wwc02]

<modsnip>The presumption of innocence until proven guilty lies at the heart of our constitution. Other countries claim this principle, but it seems that few practice it. We fought wars, some of them world wars, ostensibly to preserve and protect the soul of our country. And to protect the freedoms of other countries who let their guard down and needed our help. Let us not let our guard down, there is no one to save our butt.

There is so much to this case that does not make sense. <modsnip>

Was this kid so darn smart that he eluded LE for 2 weeks but failed to notice that his victim was still alive? This alone casts doubt upon what most of you are writing. Did you notice the fishing boats in yard? He has seen gills move. If he is so brilliant, maybe he was smart enough to make LE believe that he did it. Maybe he was forced to take the fall under threat of more killing. I know these are long shots, but the fact is.... <modsnip>

 

[Linda7NJ]

<modsnip> The presumption of innocence until proven guilty lies at the heart of our constitution. Other countries claim this principle, but it seems that few practice it. We fought wars, some of them world wars, ostensibly to preserve and protect the soul of our country. And to protect the freedoms of other countries who let their guard down and needed our help. Let us not let our guard down, there is no one to save our butt.

There is so much to this case that does not make sense. <modsnip>

Was this kid so darn smart that he eluded LE for 2 weeks but failed to notice that his victim was still alive? This alone casts doubt upon what most of you are writing. Did you notice the fishing boats in yard? He has seen gills move. If he is so brilliant, maybe he was smart enough to make LE believe that he did it. Maybe he was forced to take the fall under threat of more killing. I know these are long shots, but the fact is.... <modsnip>.

The presumption of innocence is for the jury.

IMO he eluded no one. LE was simply building a case, ruling out every other possibility.


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[Mrs G Norris]

Legally innocent yes, actually innocent, now that's something else.

I don't think he eluded police at all, LE need to build a case that's good enough for court before they can bring someone in, sometimes it's almost instant, sometimes it takes years .. that does not mean they do not know who the killer is right from the early stages of an investigation.