GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #4

[Elley Mae]

I feel like I missed the boat, could someone or two tell me why sociopaths can not be diagnosed until the legal age of (18)? I don't understand that. TIA

 

[Cappuccino]

I feel like I missed the boat, could someone or two tell me why sociopaths can not be diagnosed until the legal age of (18)? I don't understand that. TIA

Sociopathy and psychopathy are irreversible diagnoses - they are incurable. That's why they're not diagnosed in people whose brains are not yet fully formed.

 

[Elainera]

Was Leila unconscious when her father arrived and before taken to the hospital?

 

[michmi]

I just noticed this tweet from IF's attorney from 8 hours ago

Mark J. Reichel ‏@reichellaw 8h
Valley Springs walking the murder scene, talking with witnesses. Justice doesn't get Saturdays off. With John Kennedy investigations.

Will he be tweeting when they take bathroom breaks also or does justice not allow for that either? This guy is scuzzy (and I haven't used that word in years)!

 

[tlcya]

sociopathy and many other mental health diagnosis such as bi-polar, schizophrenia, etc Dr.s are not comfortable diagnosing in those whose brains have not finished developing. People are loathe to diagnose minors with such serious issues because of the stigma and labeling that attaches once diagnosed.

I have a relative whose son has displayed serious aggression, rage, has physically assaulted adults, etc. This has gone on since he was 9. He has been kicked out of mainstream school because teachers fear him. His paternal grandfather is schizophrenic. There are other serious mental health issues in the immediate family.

He has thus far been labeled with the following issues ADHD ODE. None of which we think is correct. The terms Bi-polar and Schizophrenic have been bandied about but Docs refuse to consider them til he is older (he is 12 now).

Although undiagnosed, he is being medicated with drugs that have been helpful in those two diagnosis.

OT apologies but young children with serious mental health issues usually IME exhibit very clear signs that there is a problem. and Doctors are still unable or unwilling to diagnose for the reason stated by Cap above.

 

[michmi]

Sociopaths are never "cured". Although they are not diagnosed til after attaining legal age children do have this and other disturbing personality disorders. Forensic hospitals are full of them. There are children whose parents are afraid of them. From personal experience with a family member I know that the only "real" treatment for him (family member) is medication. Talk therapy is like a brag session for him. He cannot be taught empathy because something is missing or "broken" with him. He has been this way since around age five when he was discovered trying to burn his baby sister. JMO but some children are born this way. My family member had/has a very loving family who has sought help for him but I still would not be surprised if he became a serial killer. He has an exceptionally high IQ as well. JMO

I also believe the traits are certainly there long before they are allowed to be diagnosed - and the time between exhibiting such traits and being diagnosed is almost like an education period for these children--certainly the awareness they don't have feelings/emotions most other people do and learning how to create the facade of a "normal" person, learning how to manipulate others to achieve what they want, and learning how to cover for themselves if someone does happen to catch them in a negative act.

 

[The Cheese]

Here's the DSM 4 criteria for diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder (sociopath, psychopath)

http://www.psychnet-uk.com/x_new_si...criteria/criteria_personality_antisocial.html


Here's a comparison of the DSM 4 and 5 criteria for all personality disorders including antisocial

http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Perso...eria for the Personality Disorders 5-1-12.pdf

 

[tlcya]

<modsnip>

The point of this slightly OT is simply that diagnosing children is very difficult because often their symptoms have not fully appeared and without the full picture wrong diagnosis are very easy to arrive at.

Its like guessing the end of a movie within the first five minutes. Yeah you may be right, but the story is not yet developed and you don't have all the information yet to be sure your guess is correct. you still have to watch the movie to find out.

 

[Cappuccino]

Its like guessing the end of a movie within the first five minutes. Yeah you may be right, but the story is not yet developed and you don't have all the information yet to be sure your guess is correct. you still have to watch the movie to find out.

That's a very good way to put it.

 

[winterrose]

Was Leila unconscious when her father arrived and before taken to the hospital?

I know she was in shock from what they said and you can die from shock alone, but I'm sure it was the blood loss, no telling how long he let her lay there before making that call. I'm assuming he waited till they were coming home from the game.

Various signs and symptoms appear in a person experiencing shock:

The skin is cool and clammy. It may appear pale or gray.
The pulse is weak and rapid. Breathing may be slow and shallow, or hyperventilation (rapid or deep breathing) may occur. Blood pressure is below normal.
The person may be nauseated. He or she may vomit.
The eyes lack luster and may seem to stare. Sometimes the pupils are dilated.
The person may be conscious or unconscious. If conscious, the person may feel faint or be very weak or confused. Shock sometimes causes a person to become overly excited and anxious.

I'm assuming she was unconscious, because of the blood loss. I believe they found IF's hair and blood in the room, his hair would be in the house, his blood could have been from anytime. However since they made a point in putting that out there, I'm assuming the blood was from that day. I didn't see any scratches or anything to his face, maybe I'll look back at vigil photos to find any healing marks on face, hands, or arms.

 

[winterrose]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...clues-8-year-old-girl-death-article-1.1335984

In this video LE said they were searching the pond, on their hands searching the bottom. Does anyone know how far away it was from the house? They didn't find it, another neighbor said something about rocks and caves on thier property, wondering if there were any places like that with holes you could throw something down in and not retrieve. If there's questions about animal mutilations in the area and he roamed around there, I wonder if he had any place to bury things. A hiding place, in a tree trunk, under rocks, etc. I'll look for that article with the neighbor later today, I've noticed alot of the articles are disappearing.

Maybe she saw him doing something he wasn't suppose to be doing, something that upset him so bad he was afraid she was going to tell and he chased her to her room. A kid's place they might consider a safe spot is usually thier bed. This is why when they're afraid, like with a storm, they usually run to their bed and hide under the covers. LE took the tv, I think it could have started in that room and maybe there were blood spots on it. There was some kind of long black folding thing, a strip of some kind they took out, not sure what that was, it was in a video.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

This is not the tale of the mother of a classic psychopath, but does show what it is for a mother to carry the burden of a child that kills:

[video=youtube;EJXcJSxe2fY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJXcJSxe2fY[/video]

 

[Elainera]

This is not the tale of the mother of a classic psychopath, but does show what it is for a mother to carry the burden of a child that kills:

60 Minutes - A Mother's Burden (Martin Bryant Story) - YouTube

Wow that is quite a story!

Here is the Wikipedia article for Bryant, giving further interesting details. Very creepy.

Martin Bryant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[evelyn24]

I disagree. I provided some links up thread.

I couldn't disagree with you more. People do not "grow a conscience" at age 15-16.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I tend to agree. There is no credible study I've seen to show a conscience is only grown or developed past a certain age. Kids are impulsive and immature but murder is on another level. Most kids who do violence will keep doing it in some form throughout their lives unless there is some heavy duty intervention and even then it might not work. Then we have adults who can do a vicious crime like murder then go onto live a normal crime free life: SEE TIM HENNIS.
There are so many variables.
Another thing to remember is that the tendency to kill is a dark part of human nature, and not some special case. Most people don't act on it because the fear of punishment, and also we are socially conditioned not to kill. Religion, family, community all play a part in this conditioning but the capability is in all of us to some degree.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Dr Stone on how people who are not born evil can commit evil acts when young:

[video=youtube;Dnuqnd-kUao]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnuqnd-kUao[/video]

 

[Mrs G Norris]

As discussed by Dr Stone: Callous/Unemotional Youths ...

Callous and unemotional traits - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Angelonline]

:seeya:

Hey guys I just removed a ton of posts.. we are getting way, way, way off topic here.

Also please do not state anything as fact without links. If you can't link it should be clearly labeled as your opinion only.

PM a mod if you need further clarification.


:seeya:

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Some great links to articles about 'psychopathic' children, or I guess since they have their own classification 'Callous/Unemotional Youths' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callous_and_unemotional_traits#References

 

[katydid23]

I tried to imagine what could have made him so angry. I am wondering if it had to do with the pain of missing his mother. He would be closer to her than his little sister was, because she was still young. He may have missed his mom very much and been very hurt and angry. Maybe he felt abandoned and rejectedSo I wonder if his little sister might have said something derogatory about Priscilla, like " she is not our mom anymore , Crystal is." Maybe he became angry and lashed out at poor Leila because of that rage he had seething. JMO

 

[Cappuccino]

I tried to imagine what could have made him so angry. I am wondering if it had to do with the pain of missing his mother. He would be closer to her than his little sister was, because she was still young. He may have missed his mom very much and been very hurt and angry. Maybe he felt abandoned and rejectedSo I wonder if his little sister might have said something derogatory about Priscilla, like " she is not our mom anymore , Crystal is." Maybe he became angry and lashed out at poor Leila because of that rage he had seething. JMO

You never know what goes on behind closed doors. And I've read that sibling violence is one of the most common forms of domestic violence.