GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #4

[Linda7NJ]

Tried to bring post over from last thread, failed
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[Cappuccino]

Sometimes, they're so diabolical they start at a very young age and LE catches them early.


Does age really matter if the perpetrator is a psychopath? There is NO fixing that.

At what age do we recognize the depraved mind for exactly what it is? 14? 16? 18? 21? 25?

I don't know if this kid is salvageable or not. We don't have enough information. But I strongly suspect he isn't.

Twenty one times is twenty times too many to be an "accident"


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You can't diagnose psychopathy in someone as young as 12. The human brain isn't fully formed at that age, and parts which control factors like empathy and conscience don't form properly until a person passes into adolescence. Children can do terrible things at the age of 11 or 12, and by the time they're 15 or 16 start to feel horribly guilty about them.

Whether or not that will be the case here its far too soon to tell, regardless of how "psychopathic" his behaviour may look now.

 

[writer7]

In the last thread, folks were wondering about how the cops could know they had DNA so early without the foul first reason that jumps to mind. Imho, it could have been from hair evidence if they had a fresh root. Maybe it was hair in the victim's hand, or hair that was stuck in the blood evidence so it indicated it was from the perp. If they noticed a good root, they'd probably think that DNA would come back nicely, I think. And/or fingernail scraping is my guess.

On psychopathy/sociopathy (not so much ASPD due to its specific diagnostic features): I do wonder about IF's demeanor after the crime, when police were on the manhunt. What 12-year-old has the composure to fool his family and friends at school in the wake of such a traumatic experience? It made me go hmmmm. So he told his intruder story convincingly for that long? Clearly the evidence must have given him away to get arrested (imho), but it sounds as if his demeanor didn't raise red flags to those close to him. That's a very talented liar/actor then if he's guilty, yes? And he wasn't a mess at all in court. He was described, frankly, the way psychopaths act when accused of something. That's just my opinion, and I know very little about the boy! But it makes me wonder/speculate wildly

Full disclosure: I knew a psychopath for many years, and we were around IF's age when we became very close. I do think psychopathy can be seen in children, but OTOH, they already know to be very sneaky about it by IF's age. My friend's parents didn't know the half of it. It was very covert. She wanted to be seen as a very good kid (over the top good, really).

By that age (by 9, actually), she had already gotten her older brother kicked out of the house and disowned --almost arrested for child abuse-- because she resented having to deal with him sucking up any attention in the household. Her words! The poor 18-year-old brother lived on the streets after she got him kicked out She told her parents he kept trying to get her to do heroin. They believed her over the older, usually more experienced, sibling. The skills she had for that were amazing.

So it's theoretically possible, imho, that a kid could be a psychopathic murderer and be from a good family who would never expect it of him. It would be very rare, but not unheard of. Read up on Mary Bell for a very young serial killer, no less! It's crazy.

I don't think there is any 'official' diagnosis for psychopathy for young kids, but I think they exist. It's rare that they are so bad that even murder is OK, but we've seen it before I'm curious about what happened here, and I don't see how to rule out psychopathy at this point. It could be a random case of it like crops up every once in a while, imho.

ETA: after seeing Cappuccino's post, I should add that my friend did end up growing up a violent psychopath. That is important to mention, lol. I agree that kids can have problems that are due to brain maturity too, absolutely. Murder is pushing that, though, imho, if it's premeditated. Kids generally are very aware that murder is the ultimate wrong.

 

[Linda7NJ]

You can't diagnose psychopathy in someone as young as 12. The human brain isn't fully formed at that age, and parts which control factors like empathy and conscience don't form properly until a person passes into adolescence. Children can do terrible things at the age of 11 or 12, and by the time they're 15 or 16 start to feel horribly guilty about them.

Whether or not that will be the case here its far too soon to tell, regardless of how "psychopathic" his behaviour may look now.

I disagree. I provided some links up thread.

I couldn't disagree with you more. People do not "grow a conscience" at age 15-16.


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[Cappuccino]

Read up on Mary Bell for a very young serial killer, no less!

With all due respect I disagree with you, and Mary Bell is one of the reasons why. Psychopathy cannot be cured, and yet she has been cured, and has gone on to be a law abiding and productive member of society as an adult. And that's despite the fact that she was basically already a serial killer by the age of 11!

 

[danzn16]

In the last thread, folks were wondering about how the cops could know they had DNA so early without the foul first reason that jumps to mind. Imho, it could have been from hair evidence if they had a fresh root. Maybe it was hair in the victim's hand, or hair that was stuck in the blood evidence so it indicated it was from the perp. If they noticed a good root, they'd probably think that DNA would come back nicely, I think. And/or fingernail scraping is my guess.

On psychopathy/sociopathy (not so much ASPD due to its specific diagnostic features): I do wonder about IF's demeanor after the crime, when police were on the manhunt. What 12-year-old has the composure to fool his family and friends at school in the wake of such a traumatic experience? It made me go hmmmm. So he told his intruder story convincingly for that long? Clearly the evidence must have given him away to get arrested (imho), but it sounds as if his demeanor didn't raise red flags to those close to him. That's a very talented liar/actor then if he's guilty, yes? And he wasn't a mess at all in court. He was described, frankly, the way psychopaths act when accused of something. That's just my opinion, and I know very little about the boy! But it makes me wonder/speculate wildly

Full disclosure: I knew a psychopath for many years, and we were around IF's age when we became very close. I do think psychopathy can be seen in children, but OTOH, they already know to be very sneaky about it by IF's age. My friend's parents didn't know the half of it. It was very covert. She wanted to be seen as a very good kid (over the top good, really).

By that age (by 9, actually), she had already gotten her older brother kicked out of the house and disowned --almost arrested for child abuse-- because she resented having to deal with him sucking up any attention in the household. Her words! The poor 18-year-old brother lived on the streets after she got him kicked out She told her parents he kept trying to get her to do heroin. They believed her over the older, usually more experienced, sibling. The skills she had for that were amazing.

So it's theoretically possible, imho, that a kid could be a psychopathic murderer and be from a good family who would never expect it of him. It would be very rare, but not unheard of. Read up on Mary Bell for a very young serial killer, no less! It's crazy.

I don't think there is any 'official' diagnosis for psychopathy for young kids, but I think they exist. It's rare that they are so bad that even murder is OK, but we've seen it before I'm curious about what happened here, and I don't see how to rule out psychopathy at this point. It could be a random case of it like crops up every once in a while, imho.

ETA: after seeing Cappuccino's post, I should add that my friend did end up growing up a violent psychopath. That is important to mention, lol. I agree that kids can have problems that are due to brain maturity too, absolutely. Murder is pushing that, though, imho, if it's premeditated. Kids generally are very aware that murder is the ultimate wrong.

The psychiatrist that teaches us in medical school says there definitely are children that you know are antisocial and know are psychopaths or sociopaths at a young age, before they can be diagnosed since that comes at 18.

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[Cappuccino]

I disagree. I provided some links up thread.

I couldn't disagree with you more. People do not "grow a conscience" at age 15-16.


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People's brains are not fully formed until after they pass through adolescence, and that includes parts which control empathy, conscience and the various internal breaks that adults have.

There are good reasons why no reputable psychiatrist would ever diagnose psychopathy in someone as young as 12, no matter how disturbed their behaviour.

 

[writer7]

With all due respect I disagree with you, and Mary Bell is one of the reasons why. Psychopathy cannot be cured, and yet she has been cured, and has gone on to be a law abiding and productive member of society as an adult. And that's despite the fact that she was basically already a serial killer by the age of 11!

Cured, or just doesn't want to be locked up? There are tons of psychopaths who just don't like the idea of prison, imho.

But I bet some of the young ones could be cured(ish) if from a background like Mary's. It's the ones who had a good background that scare the bajeezus out of me (like my friend)!

 

[Cappuccino]

Cured, or just doesn't want to be locked up? There are tons of psychopaths who just don't like the idea of prison, imho.

But I bet some of the young ones could be cured(ish) if from a background like Mary's. It's the ones who had a good background that scare the bajeezus out of me (like my friend)!

Re: your first point, the absolute opposite is true. Mary Bell went shoplifting and turned herself in after she was released because she wanted to be put back in prison. She was also found by her parole officer on various occassions locked in public restrooms panicking because she needed the comfort of a locked door between her and the outside world. That's what happens I suppose when someone is locked up as young as 11, prison feels like home.

Your friend doesn't seem to be have been dealt with as a child. In that type of case, I would agree that psychopathy would be strongly indicated in the child's future. But the children who do something terrible, and get caught and dealt with at that age, make good candidates for rehabilitation.

 

[Linda7NJ]

The psychiatrist that teaches us in medical school says there definitely are children that you know are antisocial and know are psychopaths or sociopaths at a young age, before they can be diagnosed since that comes at 18.

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Exactly.

Having an "official" diagnoses doesn't change the fact they exist and are capable of murder at a very young age.



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[Elainera]

I had this thought today, just want to throw it out here and see what you think:

wouldn't it have been easier and safer for IF to attack the little sibling, the toddler? If this was a thrill kill or "because I can" or "I show y'all what I can do", an 8 year old is much more risky - surely she would fight back, run away etc? And if unsuccessful she woud talk! In fact she wasn't yet dead when help arrived, had they been there just a little bit earlier she might have been able to tell them who attacked her.

A toddler would have put up much less resistance and posed a much lesser risk of exposure if the attack wasn't deadly. For an unexperienced first time killer somehow I'm surprised that he went after the younger sibling that was closest to his own age instead of the weaker ones.

That's why I believe he targeted her specifically. This was about her. Maybe she provoked him or threatened him in some way. Something had happened between the two that led to this. I wonder where he stabbed her, I mean where in her body. The location of stab wounds often is a clue as to motive.

 

[writer7]

Re: your first point, the absolute opposite is true. Mary Bell went shoplifting and turned herself in after she was released because she wanted to be put back in prison. She was also found by her parole officer on various occassions locked in public restrooms panicking because she needed the comfort of a locked door between her and the outside world. That's what happens I suppose when someone is locked up as young as 11, prison feels like home.

Your friend doesn't seem to be have been dealt with as a child. In that type of case, I would agree that psychopathy would be strongly indicated in the child's future. But the children who do something terrible, and get caught and dealt with at that age, make good candidates for rehabilitation.

Oh, that's interesting! I didn't know that about Mary. I don't know how I feel about rehabilitation chances. I don't know enough about it. I trust that my friend would have scammed anything half-hearted or superficial. If we're talking intense therapy, that might be different.

Yeah, the biggest problem with my friend's type was how many folks believed her about herself and championed her. She was actually a spoiled child. I think that is a very bad combination. I love unconditional love, but the lack of limits is a huge problem if there is a kid leaning toward psychopathy, I think.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm not labeling him anything. We know so very little.

Here's some interesting studies on juveniles and psychopathy.

http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/0022-006X.72.4.636

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q...a=X&ei=C6CWUfKKNoPC4AOCx4CYCA&ved=0CCgQgQMwAA


IMO links worth repeating.



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[Cappuccino]

Oh, that's interesting! I didn't know that about Mary. I don't know how I feel about rehabilitation chances. I don't know enough about it. I trust that my friend would have scammed anything half-hearted or superficial. If we're talking intense therapy, that might be different.

Yeah, the biggest problem with my friend's type was how many folks believed her about herself and championed her. She was actually a spoiled child. I think that is a very bad combination. I love unconditional love, but the lack of limits is a huge problem if there is a kid leaning toward psychopathy, I think.

A spoiled child and propensity for psychopathy is a very dangerous combination, I agree. Its a very different thing, I think, to a child like Mary Bell who turned violent after a disturbed childhood.

I'd give the latter type a better chance of being cured, but I still think 12 is too young to call it either way.

 

[Linda7NJ]

A spoiled child and propensity for psychopathy is a very dangerous combination, I agree. Its a very different thing, I think, to a child like Mary Bell who turned violent after a disturbed childhood.

I'd give the latter type a better chance of being cured, but I still think 12 is too young to call it either way.

Cured and learning to mimic appropriate empathic verbal responses are two different things. Modifying behavior isn't a cure for psychopathy IMO. It may curb the murdering though.

Psychopaths are always focused on their goal and reaching it by any means necessary. If the goal changes, it makes them no less a psychopath. The danger is... No one really knows if the goal changed or they simply convinced others it did.




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[MissJ]

Sociopaths are never "cured". Although they are not diagnosed til after attaining legal age children do have this and other disturbing personality disorders. Forensic hospitals are full of them. There are children whose parents are afraid of them. From personal experience with a family member I know that the only "real" treatment for him (family member) is medication. Talk therapy is like a brag session for him. He cannot be taught empathy because something is missing or "broken" with him. He has been this way since around age five when he was discovered trying to burn his baby sister. JMO but some children are born this way. My family member had/has a very loving family who has sought help for him but I still would not be surprised if he became a serial killer. He has an exceptionally high IQ as well. JMO

 

[Noniegrace]

That's why I believe he targeted her specifically. This was about her. Maybe she provoked him or threatened him in some way. Something had happened between the two that led to this. I wonder where he stabbed her, I mean where in her body. The location of stab wounds often is a clue as to motive.

The early reports I read talked about stab wounds to her face. Stabbing is so personal, I doubted the random stranger intruder story from the beginning. I totally agree this had to do with the dynamic between them. They were a pair bond, the two who had been together through all the changing dynamics of their family life.

I am fairly confused by all the changes and additions and subtractions in this family. I have a girl in my girl scout troop with a confusing family life, but about 1/10th of this degree and her views and thoughts on family are pretty askew. So I can only imagine the kids in this situation have a lot of side effects from the turmoil.

 

[jane_tennison]

Little and not so little kids understand more about life and death than we give credit for... we just 'baby' ppl in our society...that why 'adolescence' extends into adulthood, cultural practices and expectations ar not an indicator of senses of personal responsibilty, moral understanding or acountability

 

[mom2four717]

Do we know anything about the oldest brothers activities on THE Saturday?

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

I have tried to do some timeline estimates. It's difficult though because we don't know how long the ambulance took to drive from the Fowler home to the hospital, how long the paramedics were at the house, how long did the ambulance take to reach the house (so where did it come from), how long until LE arrived at the home, etc.

If I just assume that the ambulance was able to make the 25-minute drive in 15-minutes, that the ambulance came from the hospital, and that LE arrived at the house in 10 minutes, here is just a complete estimate:

I worked backwards from the one time we do know: 12:55.

12:55: Ambulance arrives at the hospital
12:40 Ambulance leaves the Fowler home
12:35: Ambulance arrives at the Fowler home
12:23: LE arrives at the home
12:20: Ambulance is notified of the stabbing, leaves hospital
12:20: Barney arrives home? (If he left as soon as they got word of the break-in)
12:15: Dispatcher calls IF
12:13: Crystal calls 911
12:10: The sister and boyfriend call or tell Crystal and Barney about the break-in

On the prev.thread someone mentioned that Little League matches start at 10:30.. and I googled a bit and met some matches dd 27 April starting at 10:30 also sweet Leila was said to be died approx 6 minutes after arrival to the hospital.

13.01 Leila was declared dead ...
12:55: Ambulance arrives at the hospital
12:40 Ambulance leaves the Fowler home
12:35: Ambulance arrives at the Fowler home
12:23: LE arrives at the home
12:20: Ambulance is notified of the stabbing, leaves hospital
12:20: Barney arrives home? (If he left as soon as they got word of the break-in)
12:15: Dispatcher calls IF
12:13: Crystal calls 911 ( said Leila was freaking out )
12:10: The sister and boyfriend call or tell Crystal and Barney about the break-in
10.30 Match started.( not for sure)
10.00 They left home prob latest..

I also wonder why BF didn't take her to the hospital with his car asap he arrived home and instead called and waited the ambulance..Seems they arrived 20 minutes late to the hospital...