GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #4

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When one is posting it on a public webpage, it is likely that the kids were aware of her feelings. The other hinted in a news media article, but kept it very general.

Aren't we talking about POST murder postings? Or do you have any links to PRE murder postings?

gitana1 cited the TIMING of the postings to suggest that the kids weren't shielded from her feelings -- I stated the TIMING suggests no such thing and why.
 
I disagree.

I'll point to the lack of mountains of dead people as my basis....that contentious divorce and child support issues doesn't a Murderer make.

I would think family environment filled with abuse, neglect and CPS involvement ....could absolutely contribute to mental illness. and even cultivate a murderer... So far we have zero evidence of that.


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BBM

It sure does increase the chances though!

If you see a report of a local murdered person, then learn the person was in the midst of a child support dispute or divorce, who do you automatically look at first?
 
Yep, the parents in that case remain in denial. Iirc the evidence was overwhelming! Footprint lead right to where, in the backyard, he buried evidence.


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Yes, thats the case. The parents are still fighting to get his conviction overturned.
 
Aren't we talking about POST murder postings? Or do you have any links to PRE murder postings?

gitana1 cited the TIMING of the postings to suggest that the kids weren't shielded from her feelings -- I stated the TIMING suggests no such thing and why.

Does it really matter? You would think after the murder that their professed mother would want to make sure that the kids didn't get upset by any discord between the parents at this time esp. Thus would keep any of her discussions about the situation private.
 
BBM
It sure does increase the chances though!

Does it? You may want to re-read the post you referenced... Or maybe I missed something.

If you see a report of a local murdered person, then learn the person was in the midst of a child support dispute or divorce, who do you automatically look at first?

The spouse. I'm not sure what you are suggesting here or what relevance it has with a 12 y/o murder suspect and a 10 y/o victim.
 
Does it really matter?

If the suggestion is that a post murder post leads us to believe the children in that house were subject to anger BEFORE the murder, then yes -- it REALLY matters.

You would think after the murder that their professed mother would want to make sure that the kids didn't get upset by any discord between the parents at this time esp. Thus would keep any of her discussions about the situation private.

That would be a rational view, wouldn't it? However, the reality of it AFTER the emotional upheavals of losing a child kind of toss that out the window for the short term. Think "emotional roller coaster". Think starting to cry at a smell, sound or picture. Think lashing out at a mild irritation.

So yes -- it REALLY REALLY matters. Really.

(edited for clarity)
 
Does it really matter? You would think after the murder that their professed mother would want to make sure that the kids didn't get upset by any discord between the parents at this time esp. Thus would keep any of her discussions about the situation private.

It doesn't seem right to me that someone takes over being the mother just because the real mom can't or isn't paying child support. I think it's great when someone steps up and takes the role of a mother or father, so that's not what I am saying. I can't imagine the pain the real mom must feel at having the news call the husbands fiance/girlfriend her real mom, being kept from her funeral, and being bashed in public. At the very least that feels extremely mean hearted.
 
Does anyone really doubt that mental illness can lead to murder? And/or that contentious home lives can give rise to metal illness?

I'm not sure why folks are so invested in the idea of this kid being a psychopath, period, end of story. It's possible, sure, but it's no more or less possible than a scenario whereby he is mentally for whatever reason and that's why it happened.
 
I never said anything was impossible.

I stated a contentious divorce and child support issues do not equal mental illness nor would it explain a murder by one child of another.




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I agree. I don't think I can think of one case where custody issues caused a kid to brutally murder their sibling unless there was abuse of the kids as well.
 
I agree. I don't think I can think of one case where custody issues caused a kid to brutally murder their sibling unless there was abuse of the kids as well.

The suggestion was not that custody disputes cause murder.

My suggestion is simply that custody issues, upheaval of not seeing their mother, and all things previously listed, can cause mental illness.

It is that mental illness, in turn, that might possibly explain the murder.
 
Does it? You may want to re-read the post you referenced... Or maybe I missed something.



The spouse
. I'm not sure what you are suggesting here or what relevance it has with a 12 y/o murder suspect and a 10 y/o victim.

Right? I certainly do.
 
The suggestion was not that custody disputes cause murder.

My suggestion is simply that custody issues, upheaval of not seeing their mother, and all things previously listed, can cause mental illness.

It is that mental illness, in turn, that might possibly explain the murder.

I don't think there is enough concrete research on mental illness to know whether outside factors cause it or whether it's a neurological condition that starts at certain points in development regardless of the environment, or both.
TBH I've never heard of mental illness in a 12 year old or a doctor who is legit willing to diagnose a person that age with a mental illness.

I think it is definitely fair to say that if a child is raised in turmoil or around abuse/violence, they will feel detachment and anger. These are emotions and feelings that can get to a boiling point and they'll lash out as a way to cope.
 
Well I will not judge his number of kids but will offer my opinion. If you are having trouble paying for the kids you have and you have to spend money in court to try and get more money for them; maybe you should consider not having anymore. I think the possibility one might have murdered another also should make you pause before having anymore. IMO

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Yup. :rockon:
 
got it. Bio mom going on national tv to reveal family dispute. Okey dokey. CW being on FB doing so, not allowed and speaks volumes about her.

Yeah, you're right .. double standard because CW was in the home so more blame going to her, which isn't fair .. it's the boy's fault, blame lies with him. How long have CW and BF been together, if he has a two year old to another woman it seems to me that means some overlap with that relationship and CW does it not? CW would surely have been having a hard time herself dealing with the fact that he has another child as the result of that!
 
TBH I've never heard of mental illness in a 12 year old or a doctor who is legit willing to diagnose a person that age with a mental illness.

Well, I think the true statement, is doctors aren't willing to diagnose. Some 12 year olds have anger and violence issues, but are not mentally ill. As their brain, emotions, and reasoning matures...they can deal with life in a healthy way. Some, never get better. Every mentally ill adult, was a 12 year old once. I don't think for a second, that any serial killer was a fine and dandy 12 year old. The fact is, there ARE mentally ill 12 year olds. I have a sister who was one. We all knew it, everyone knew it. She still is mentally ill.

I'm not sure stabbing 21 times and lying about it causing a manhunt, falls under mentally healthy. BUT, I'm not an expert. Just a regular person with an opinion!!
 
I disagree.

I'll point to the lack of mountains of dead people as my basis....that contentious divorce and child support issues doesn't a Murderer make.

I would think family environment filled with abuse, neglect and CPS involvement ....could absolutely contribute to mental illness. and even cultivate a murderer... So far we have zero evidence of that.


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No one is saying that contentious divorce or custody cases cause people to murder. No one has said that. You stated you felt one would be hard pressed to cite any research showing that custody squabbles or cases can cause mental issues in children. I posted several links showing that there is a flood of research to support just that.

I'm not sure why some are making the leap from parental conflict causing mental issues to parental conflict causing murder. Again, no one has said that and there is a serious logical fallacy in the argument that because there are not mountains of people dead at the hands of children from broken homes with parental conflict present, then parental conflict cannot cause mental issues. We are talking about two different things here, guys.

Does anyone really doubt that mental illness can lead to murder? And/or that contentious home lives can give rise to metal illness?

I'm not sure why folks are so invested in the idea of this kid being a psychopath, period, end of story. It's possible, sure, but it's no more or less possible than a scenario whereby he is mentally for whatever reason and that's why it happened.

I think mental illness can lead to murder but in most cases it's probably only a factor, I think, instead of the leading cause. Most murders are for a specific reasons like jealousy, money, gang fights, retaliation. But I can't back that up with research. It's purely my opinion.

I will say this though: While I don;t immediately assume this boy is a psychopath or has such tendencies, I think research does show that, different from adults who kill, kids who kill are overwhelmingly either of the type who lack empathy or have sexual conflict issues. So the chances of IF being a sociopathic type are pretty darn high.

However, personality disorders (such as anti-social personality disorder which psychopathy and sociopathy would fall under), can develop from homes with intense parental conflict.

That's my point, anyway.

I agree. I don't think I can think of one case where custody issues caused a kid to brutally murder their sibling unless there was abuse of the kids as well.

Wow. Not one person has said custody issues caused this kid to murder his little sister. I;m so confused as to why this keeps being stated.

The suggestion was not that custody disputes cause murder.

My suggestion is simply that custody issues, upheaval of not seeing their mother, and all things previously listed, can cause mental illness.

It is that mental illness, in turn, that might possibly explain the murder.

Bingo! Finally! Explaining one of the factors that may have led to the mental issues that may have contributed to the crime is vastly different from saying that one factor was the sole reason for the crime or caused it to happen. A lot of posters seem to be making a huge jump from A to F, without showing the intervening links.
 
Does anyone really doubt that mental illness can lead to murder? And/or that contentious home lives can give rise to metal illness?

I'm not sure why folks are so invested in the idea of this kid being a psychopath, period, end of story. It's possible, sure, but it's no more or less possible than a scenario whereby he is mentally for whatever reason and that's why it happened.

I'm not invested in anything. It's the direction in leaning with the minuscule amount of information we have. Twenty One Stab wounds to a little defenseless girl.


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IMO if the courts gave him full custody the court believed for whatever reason he was the best suited for the job.

Of course Priscilla should pay child support! Geeesh.
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With all due respect, we don't know that Priscilla even had the financial means to try and get custody. Besides the fact that regardless of what people might think of our judicial system the Judges aren't always on the up and up and do the right things by the children.

MOO
 
Does anyone have (I can't find them online) statistics of how rare teenagers committing violent homicide is? More importantly, how rare it is to murder a sibling? Not just murder them, but by stabbing multiple times and lying about it? The fact that I can't seem to find any statistics, says to me it could exceedingly rare.''

snipped by me for space

Rare yes, but not unheard of.


From BJS, Bureau of Justice Statistics:

Family violence

Family violence accounted for 11% of all reported and unreported violence between 1998 and 2002.
About 22% of murders in 2002 were family murders.

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=94


In this pdf file, also from BJS, are tables that show more about the age of young murderers:

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/jvo03.pdf

Table 23 shows that in 2001-2003, 161 youths aged 12-14 committed murder.

58% of victims under the age of 11 are killed by a family member.

In this pdf file (Homicide Trends in the United States, 1980-2008) murder by a sibling is addressed:

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

Table 1 shows that 0.5% of murderers are under 14 years old.

The section Family Homicide starts on page 21. Table 33b on page 22 is interesting: Sisters killed by sibling, by sex and age of offender, 1980–2008

Sisters killed by a sibling were more likely to be murdered by a brother than a sister. A quarter of all murders of sisters by a sibling were committed by a teenage sibling between 13 and 18 years-old.

A sibling killing a sibling is however the rarest type of family homicide (Table 30).


Lots more interesting data in this file. Bookmark it for future reference!
 
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