GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #4

[Elley Mae]

1988 stats

Among murder victims 6.5% were killed
by their spouses, 3.5% by their parents,
1.9% by their own children, 1.5% by their
siblings, and 2.6% by some other family
member.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/mf.pdf

 

[gitana1]

Who's arguing that? What blows my mind are all these posts of speculation based on zero information about how the children were ACTUALLY being raised. Respectfully, when I point out what we DO know, you respond with the above. Don't you see the problem? Ignore what we know and come up with custom made scenarios based on guesses. <boggles>my mind</boggles>

There are a lot of WAGs with regards to how the parents were raising their children and what it must have been like for the children.

Speculation is okay as long as it's not against the TOS. People are speuclating that the home life was turbulent based on factors I outlined in an early post. It's a logical assumption. And as I stated before, we know there was some sort of problem in the family, between the parents or with one or more parents.

But regarding speculation, people are speculating that intense parental conflict and separation from a parent can cause or exacerbate mental illness in a child. There is more than a little evidence that there is parental conflict and parental separation in this case. It's documented in media articles, facebook posts, other public statements and court records.

And people are speculating that mental health issues may be a contributing factor to the murder of little Leila. If you think that's a stretch, I can't help you.

If you think that's being offered as an excuse, it's not. Personality disorders like psychopathy/sociopathy or borderline personality disorder, can develop from extremely fractured home lives or intense parental conflict/discord, among other things, in susceptible people. But none of it excuses the murder unless the killer was legally insane at the time of the killing - and covering up the crime pretty much negates that possibility IMO.

If you think that people are using that to say that mom was good person and dad should not have had custody, well, I can tell you I'm not. As I stated early on, there are usually good reasons why one parent has no contact. That is not something that occurs easily.

And lack of resources for an attorney or whatever is no excuse not to fight for your kids, IMO and in my experience. So I don't want to hear that excuse from Priscilla. I read a sentence quoted from her court documents and it was straight forward and well said. That woman has no problems communicating so she can fill out a declaration and file paperwork to maintain contact or to see her kids or have the father held in contempt if he prevents contact. There is a TON of information available on the internet as to how to do that. A persistent and committed parent would do whatever it takes, no matter what and never stop fighting for the right to be involved. So if one parent is uninvolved, there is likely a good reason the children have been placed with the other parent.

But comments about parental conflict in the context of the step-mother or dad's house were made because that's where the kids live and that's who they have contact with. So what mom may now be saying publicly about family discord is not as revealing when it comes to anger the children might have been exposed to in the home, as what dad or step-mom might say. And intense anger and parental conflict can cause intense emotional problems with children and intense emotional problems in children can contribute to their propensity to commit bad/evil/criminal acts.

I sure hope that's clear.

 

[TheDuchess]

Where has anyone excused the murder for any reason? Mental illness due to intense family discord can be an explanation. But not an excuse.

I believe the legal definition of this is "mitigating circumstances." I am not sure how much they are allowable in court to determine guilt or innocence, but I do know they are used quite frequently for the sentencing phase. i.e. a person who has everything and is of normal upbringing, financial status, intelligence, etc..or has a record a mile long may serve the maximum, whereas someone who has been abused, has had a difficult childhood, is of lower than normal intelligence, has mental illness, or perhaps a perfectly clean record may get the minimum sentence.

 

[Kimster]

Do not criticize each other for posting what others think. Have a healthy debate by pulling out the precise issue you disagree with and discussing it. No reason for the "shouldas" at all.

If you just don't agree, you can "agree to disagree", scroll on by, or put the poster on ignore.

If things don't cool down in here, my ray gun is going to get fired up real soon. :saber:

 

[TheDuchess]

IMO it makes it more likely they were born a psychopath.


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If only there was some kind of psychopath test we could give to an infant at birth, we can take care of the situation even earlier and prevent any violence from happening in the first place! Early intervention, right??? By your standards, there is no cure for a psychopath and they are born with it-so let's nip the problem in the bud before it's too late. The earlier the better right?

:facepalm:

 

[Elainera]

I believe that, based on my experience and the ability of the step mom to criticize the mother publicly, on the day her stepson was arrested for murder, there was a boat load of discord these kids were exposed to


Poverty is not a reason to deny custody. That is resolved through a child support order. So if mom was granted custody but was poor, she would be granted child support from the wealthier parent.


Based on the fb post, I believe these kids were exposed.


I can guarantee you that mental illness In Children dealing with turbulent divorce situations is far from rare.


I did. It was the day the boy was arrested. The step mom was criticizing the mom publicly for her media interview in which she expressed disbelief about the situation and love for the kids. The step mom called her an actress and was basically inferring in posts that the woman had nothing to do with the kids.

My point is I couldn't even walk, let alone expense the energy to criticize the mother of my murdered step daughter and the step son just arrested for her murder. The fact that CW was able to reveals a lot to me.

This is an interesting point you make. I wonder whether CW was somewhat emotionally distant to Leila and IF. jmo

 

[gitana1]

Does anyone have (I can't find them online) statistics of how rare teenagers committing violent homicide is? More importantly, how rare it is to murder a sibling? Not just murder them, but by stabbing multiple times and lying about it? The fact that I can't seem to find any statistics, says to me it could exceedingly rare.

What is not uncommon is divorce, broken homes, putting down of step or bio parents, not knowing a bio parent, having a mixed family, financial strife, abuse, neglect. Out of all the millions of children and teenagers who go through this, a tiny fraction of them might go on to murder as a teen. An even smaller fraction by stabbing many times. An even smaller fraction, by leading on a wild goose chase and lying about it. If that were a reaction, that could leap from turbulence in the home, to murdering a sibling and lying...wouldn't it happen more often? Wouldn't MORE teenagers break and do the same thing? Yes, everyone reacts differently. If a traumatic home life was causation for murder, why is this still rare? But, when you have millions of children going through the same and worse, and only a handful react THAT kind of different...can't we deduct there is likely serious mental illness going on?

When you look at who is in our prisons, a significant portion are people with drug or alcohol addictions and/or mental illness of some sort. About 20% are psychopaths.

I think when you look at kids who kill, the vast majority come from homes where there has been a lot of exposure to violence. They are also two main types of child killers: Those who appear to be sociopathic or have such tendencies and those who have sexual conflict of some sort, apparently: http://www.nytimes.com/1983/10/11/science/children-who-kill-personality-patterns-are-identified.html

I think it IS very rare for kids to kill and thus, while a turbulent back ground, parental divorce and separation may impact the development of the child, that alone is certainly not enough to cause a child to murder, or, you are right, there would be many more.

However, such turbulence and conflict can be one of the factors that cause personality disorders such as those which result in a lack of empathy. So a connection between parental conflict/separation, mental issues and children who murder is no stretch at all. But again, I think some are confusing "connection" with "excuse" or "sole reason". We are just discussing various factors.

 

[Gardenlady]

I never said anything was impossible.

I stated a contentious divorce and child support issues do not equal mental illness nor would it explain a murder by one child of another.




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But there is plenty of evidence that divorce and contentious family court cases CAN give rise to mental illness. So what you said is your opinion, but has no factual basis at all.

 

[gitana1]

This is an interesting point you make. I wonder whether CW was somewhat emotionally distant to Leila and IF. jmo

I can't make that leap. Apparently she called herself their mother. I just think, based on her statements, he timing of them and the field I work in, that she was very angry or negative about the bio-mom and that her level of anger or dislike would make it highly unlikely that the children were protected from her feelings.

 

[gitana1]

I believe the legal definition of this is "mitigating circumstances." I am not sure how much they are allowable in court to determine guilt or innocence, but I do know they are used quite frequently for the sentencing phase. i.e. a person who has everything and is of normal upbringing, financial status, intelligence, etc..or has a record a mile long may serve the maximum, whereas someone who has been abused, has had a difficult childhood, is of lower than normal intelligence, has mental illness, or perhaps a perfectly clean record may get the minimum sentence.

That's right. They are mitigators for a reason. They explain motivation and sometimes can mitigate the sentence handed down. But they don't excuse the crime.

Do not criticize each other for posting what others think. Have a healthy debate by pulling out the precise issue you disagree with and discussing it. No reason for the "shouldas" at all.

If you just don't agree, you can "agree to disagree", scroll on by, or put the poster on ignore.

If things don't cool down in here, my ray gun is going to get fired up real soon. :saber:

Okay Kimster. No ray guns, please! You are right. I have heard and will follow your instructions.

 

[Jhon]

Speculation is okay as long as it's not against the TOS. People are speuclating that the home life was turbulent based on factors I outlined in an early post. It's a logical assumption. And as I stated before, we know there was some sort of problem in the family, between the parents or with one or more parents.

I disagree that it's a "logical assumption". There is nothing to suggest the parents brought any of their conflict with each other to the home -- never mind to what DEGREE any "turbulence" might have been experienced if there WERE any "turbulence".

But regarding speculation, people are speculating that intense parental conflict and separation from a parent can cause or exacerbate mental illness in a child. There is more than a little evidence that there is parental conflict and parental separation in this case. It's documented in media articles, facebook posts, other public statements and court records.

Where is it documented that there was intense parental conflict? There was conflict between the parents -- I've seen nothing to say it spilled over to their home life or that it was actively discussed under their roof.

And people are speculating that mental health issues may be a contributing factor to the murder of little Leila. If you think that's a stretch, I can't help you.

That's less of a stretch. *IF* you assume that the brother killed the sister, mental health could have been a contributing factor.

If you think that's being offered as an excuse, it's not. Personality disorders like psychopathy/sociopathy or borderline personality disorder, can develop from extremely fractured home lives or intense parental conflict/discord, among other things, in susceptible people. But none of it excuses the murder unless the killer was legally insane at the time of the killing - and covering up the crime pretty much negates that possibility IMO.

I don't think it's being offered as an excuse -- not from you or pretty much anyone else. I see it more as a rhetorical device to wedge in WAGs rather than any factually based discussion. And I think it's been made clear hear already that there should be an effort on OUR parts to realize everything posted here will be available and searchable to all the surviving victims. They don't need the additional pain of seeing people make uninformed guesses about their home life or discuss their private dirt (I speak from experience here).

If you think that people are using that to say that mom was good person and dad should not have had custody, well, I can tell you I'm not. As I stated early on, there are usually good reasons why one parent has no contact. That is not something that occurs easily.

Agreed. Which is why I question if there was any real serious conflict in front of the kids. There's nothing to suggest that at all.

And lack of resources for an attorney or whatever is no excuse not to fight for your kids, IMO and in my experience. So I don't want to hear that excuse from Priscilla. I read a sentence quoted from her court documents and it was straight forward and well said. That woman has no problems communicating so she can fill out a declaration and file paperwork to maintain contact or to see her kids or have the father held in contempt if he prevents contact. There is a TON of information available on the internet as to how to do that. A persistent and committed parent would do whatever it takes, no matter what and never stop fighting for the right to be involved. So if one parent is uninvolved, there is likely a good reason the children have been placed with the other parent.

Amen.

But comments about parental conflict in the context of the step-mother or dad's house were made because that's where the kids live and that's who they have contact with. So what mom may now be saying publicly about family discord is not as revealing when it comes to anger the children might have been exposed to in the home, as what dad or step-mom might say. And intense anger and parental conflict can cause intense emotional problems with children and intense emotional problems in children can contribute to their propensity to commit bad/evil/criminal acts.

"might" have been exposed... I'm saying this type of "speculation" is unhealthy for that family and does a disservice to them and Leila.

 

[Linda7NJ]

But there is plenty of evidence that divorce and contentious family court cases CAN give rise to mental illness. So what you said is your opinion, but has no factual basis at all.

I disagree.

I'll point to the lack of mountains of dead people as my basis....that contentious divorce and child support issues doesn't a Murderer make.

I would think family environment filled with abuse, neglect and CPS involvement ....could absolutely contribute to mental illness. and even cultivate a murderer... So far we have zero evidence of that.


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[winterrose]

I can't make that leap. Apparently she called herself their mother. I just think, based on her statements, he timing of them and the field I work in, that she was very angry or negative about the bio-mom and that her level of anger or dislike would make it highly unlikely that the children were protected from her feelings.

True, esp if any of the kids were on the friend's list.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Not sure which one you are talking about... I assumed that this picture was pretty much the family.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/crime-law/calaveras-vigil/nXcyh/

So I was assuming the kid Barney is holding is the youngest. :twocents:

It was in the Record.net link I supplied a few posts earlier--but your photo is similar enough.

But, I did have a new question, based on your photo:

How did the family get those matching Leila t-shirts within 2 business days after her murder (for the vigil)? I've ordered specialty tees and it takes me a week, minimum. Did they have a special tee shirt service in town that would process those quickly?

Don't take offense...nothing implied, here. Just curious how that worked--if it was another contribution by a local business or something.

 

[Jhon]

I can't make that leap. Apparently she called herself their mother. I just think, based on her statements, he timing of them and the field I work in, that she was very angry or negative about the bio-mom and that her level of anger or dislike would make it highly unlikely that the children were protected from her feelings.

Or perhaps the "timing" of their respective displays of public anger had more to do with the fact there was a dead girl they both cared about and they were extremely short fused. It's easy for someone to see another as 'nosing in' on their pain. The TIMING is why it's not "highly unlikely that the children were protected from her feelings".

You speak with the experience your job brings you. I speak from the experience my family being the victim of a violent crime brings me.

 

[mamabear5]

True, esp if any of the kids were on the friend's list.

JF and AF were on the friends list. I do not think any of the other children had a FB. To my knowledge JF and AF no longer have one.

 

[Jhon]

How did the family get those matching Leila t-shirts within 2 business days after her murder (for the vigil)? I've ordered specialty tees and it takes me a week, minimum. Did they have a special tee shirt service in town that would process those quickly?

Don't take offense...nothing implied, here. Just curious how that worked--if it was another contribution by a local business or something.

You basically answered your own question. I can't say if it was a local business, but you've no idea how many 'angels' are out there when strangers are in crisis -- or maybe a family member/friend runs a print shop.

 

[winterrose]

JF and AF were on the friends list. I do not think any of the other children had a FB. To my knowledge JF and AF no longer have one.

Yep, they deleted when she did, probably at the advice of the lawyer.

 

[mamabear5]

How did the family get those matching Leila t-shirts within 2 business days after her murder (for the vigil)? I've ordered specialty tees and it takes me a week, minimum. Did they have a special tee shirt service in town that would process those quickly?

Yes, there is a sign and screen-printing company in VS, I don't know if that is where the shirts were done.

 

[mysteriew]

Or perhaps the "timing" of their respective displays of public anger had more to do with the fact there was a dead girl they both cared about and they were extremely short fused. It's easy for someone to see another as 'nosing in' on their pain. The TIMING is why it's not "highly unlikely that the children were protected from her feelings".

You speak with the experience your job brings you. I speak from the experience my family being the victim of a violent crime brings me.

When one is posting it on a public webpage, it is likely that the kids were aware of her feelings. The other hinted in a news media article, but kept it very general.