GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #4

[mysteriew]

I've been lurking since this all began and finally joined yesterday. I grew up in the Valley Springs area, still live fairly close, and have lots of friends and family living in and around VS.

In regards to the timelines that are being created. I think it is possible that a wrong assumption is being made that LF "died" at 1:01 pm. We know that she was "pronounced" dead at that time. In CA EMS personnel cannot pronounce people dead. Under very specific criteria they can declare a person dead but it still takes a coroner or a MD to pronounce. I also think based on my familiarity with various EMS personnel that there is a HUGE possibility, that even if there was no pulse, etc when they arrived, that usually extraordinary measures are taken in regards to children and I think those would've been taken in an attempt to lessen what was most definitely an already chaotic scene.

Not sure if I'm getting my point across correctly, but basically, EMS rolls up to a stabbing scene with parents and children most likely freaking out, screaming etc and I don't think even if the subject was obviously dead that would declare them dead at that point. I think they would scoop them up and get out of there asap. I think being pronounced only 6 minutes after arrival tells a lot. IMO LF was very possibly already deceased when EMS arrived.

Excellent points MamaBear and I agree with you

Welcome to WS!

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

She was due in February 2012.
So that would make him about 15 months old.

Now see, I remember reading somewhere that she was due in February--but thought I read that in the context of a newly diagnosed pregnancy. Does anyone have a link for either a current pregnancy or the past Feb. 2012 delivery? (Or was that just Facebook chatter?)

This is confusing. (And if that littlest is 15 months old, he's pretty tiny. He doesn't even look like a walker, in that Record.net photo gallery. Though it's possible, I suppose...)

 

[mysteriew]

So wouldn't it be more accurate to say that it wasn't the "situation" then, but something else?

No lol. It would be more accurate to say we don't know enough about the situation or the child to say if it was the situation or something else. Which leaves it open for speculation.

 

[gitana1]

It doesn't prove there is a problem. However, it may suggest there is a problem. Further, assuming Leila was murdered by her sibling because of your suggested "household problems" under which you belive they lived, why aren't there countless other sibling murders through out the nation? Divorce -- and bitter ones at that -- are not uncommon. I don't think you can really point to anything in inter-parental relationships that would cause or even contribute one child to kill another without some serious mental gymnastics -- particularly with this case.

By making assumptions about how the parents relationships effected their children in a way that would contribute to one killing the other is just slightly better than suggesting that feeding the children to keeping them from starving to death contributed to one killing the other (because if they were dead of starvation, one couldn't kill the other, could they)?

What we know is that the children were with the bio father. That should at least suggest something positive about living in that home vs. the bio mom.

Oh honey, yes it does. People do not make public, negative statements about one another unless there is a problem. That problem can be that one or both parties are liars. Or it can be that they dislike each other. Or that there is indeed an ongoing legal battle. But clearly, there is a problem.

As to the rest of your post, you are making a lot of assumptions about what you think my posts are indicating. Your assumptions are incorrect.

 

[MsFacetious]

Now see, I remember reading somewhere that she was due in February--but thought I read that in the context of a newly diagnosed pregnancy. Does anyone have a link for either a current pregnancy or the past Feb. 2012 delivery? (Or was that just Facebook chatter?)

This is confusing. (And if that littlest is 15 months old, he's pretty tiny. He doesn't even look like a walker, in that Record.net photo gallery. Though it's possible, I suppose...)

I certainly cannot confirm that the pregnancy mentioned was the one that resulted in that child.
It's certainly possible she miscarried that pregnancy and then became pregnant again. :twocents:

I just know it was said she was due in February, it was discussed in the context of when they moved.
They were getting a house Summer 2011, after she discovered she was pregnant. :twocents:

Beyond that, I don't know.

 

[Gardenlady]

It doesn't prove there is a problem. However, it may suggest there is a problem. Further, assuming Leila was murdered by her sibling because of your suggested "household problems" under which you belive they lived, why aren't there countless other sibling murders through out the nation? Divorce -- and bitter ones at that -- are not uncommon. I don't think you can really point to anything in inter-parental relationships that would cause or even contribute one child to kill another without some serious mental gymnastics -- particularly with this case.

By making assumptions about how the parents relationships effected their children in a way that would contribute to one killing the other is just slightly better than suggesting that feeding the children to keeping them from starving to death contributed to one killing the other (because if they were dead of starvation, one couldn't kill the other, could they)?

What we know is that the children were with the bio father. That should at least suggest something positive about living in that home vs. the bio mom.

No one has said that for sure this is what caused it. Only that it is a *possibility*. Speaking personally, I was answering posts that seemed to say its completely impossible for a volatile family life to cause mental illness, and trying to show that the few facts we do have from MSM seem to indicate a certain level of discord/chaos/disharmony/volatility/instability/pickyourownadjective.

 

[Jhon]

Kids react differently.
Just because someone had custody doesn't mean they should have custody.

<modsnip>

There are a lot of WAGs with regards to how the parents were raising their children and what it must have been like for the children.

 

[Davereid]

Any thoughts on the mothers who are not raising their children and are having to pay support for them but who have gone on to have others children? that knife IMO cuts both ways.

Agreed. I think it is being a responsible parent to consider the kids you do have either custodial or noncustodial before having more children. I mean accidents happen but no one can argue there are not people out there who seemingly have child after child they cannot afford or have time to devote to each. It ultimately is a disservice to your kids. My husband as an LEO always had to arrest this guy who had 12 kids at 22 years old with multiple women. He worked a minimum wage job and could not afford child support so he regularly spent time in jail. It is the both parties responsibility to use birth control. My point with IF and Leila all along is the more kids you have the less resources and time you have for them. IF could have been having some issues and no one realized until the worst thing happened. I am not blaming his parents or any parent(s) with multiple kids (I have three); but realistically this could have been a contributing factor to this case

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[PoirotryInMotion]

I've been lurking since this all began and finally joined yesterday. I grew up in the Valley Springs area, still live fairly close, and have lots of friends and family living in and around VS.

In regards to the timelines that are being created. I think it is possible that a wrong assumption is being made that LF "died" at 1:01 pm. We know that she was "pronounced" dead at that time. In CA EMS personnel cannot pronounce people dead. Under very specific criteria they can declare a person dead but it still takes a coroner or a MD to pronounce. I also think based on my familiarity with various EMS personnel that there is a HUGE possibility, that even if there was no pulse, etc when they arrived, that usually extraordinary measures are taken in regards to children and I think those would've been taken in an attempt to lessen what was most definitely an already chaotic scene.

Not sure if I'm getting my point across correctly, but basically, EMS rolls up to a stabbing scene with parents and children most likely freaking out, screaming etc and I don't think even if the subject was obviously dead that would declare them dead at that point. I think they would scoop them up and get out of there asap. I think being pronounced only 6 minutes after arrival tells a lot. IMO LF was very possibly already deceased when EMS arrived.

Of course, we're only able to go by what MSM has reported (which may be in error), but it has said that she died after arriving at the hospital:

&#8226; Per VIDEO, the little girl was still alive when police arrived:
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/n...old-girl-stabb

&#8226; Leila &#8220;rushed&#8221; to hospital (to me this implies she's still clinging to life--they don't rush a corpse to the hospital)
http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_135af3fe-af98-11e2-a554-0019bb2963f4.html

&#8226; 12:55 Leila arrives at hospital - &#8220;DIES MINUTES AFTER ARRIVAL&#8221; (CNN)
http://www.modbee.com/2013/04/28/2691097/calaveras-county-manhunt-continues.html#storylink=cpy

Leila died minutes after arriving at the hospital, authorities said. She died of shock and hemorrhages from her wounds, the Calaveras County Coroner's office said.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/14/justice/california-stabbing-death/

&#8226; Arrived at hospital at 12:55 and pronounced dead at 1:01:

http://www.uniondemocrat.com/News/Local-News/Suspects-ruled-out-in-slaying

http://www.modbee.com/2013/04/28/2691097/calaveras-county-manhunt-continues.html

ETA: Welcome to WS and the discussion!

 

[MsFacetious]

Now see, I remember reading somewhere that she was due in February--but thought I read that in the context of a newly diagnosed pregnancy. Does anyone have a link for either a current pregnancy or the past Feb. 2012 delivery? (Or was that just Facebook chatter?)

This is confusing. (And if that littlest is 15 months old, he's pretty tiny. He doesn't even look like a walker, in that Record.net photo gallery. Though it's possible, I suppose...)

Not sure which one you are talking about... I assumed that this picture was pretty much the family.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/crime-law/calaveras-vigil/nXcyh/

So I was assuming the kid Barney is holding is the youngest. :twocents:

 

[Jhon]

Oh honey, yes it does.

Oh deary, no it doesn't. Not a problem for the children, anyway.

People do not make public, negative statements about one another unless there is a problem. That problem can be that one or both parties are liars. Or it can be that they dislike each other. Or that there is indeed an ongoing legal battle. But clearly, there is a problem.

And none of that suggests (or actually represents) how the parents (step and otherwise) conducted themselves in front of their respective children. Parents can have SERIOUS issues with each other and not let that spill over to their respective home lives.

As to the rest of your post, you are making a lot of assumptions about what you think my posts are indicating. Your assumptions are incorrect.

Please expand on what you believe my assumptions are and provide me examples of how they are incorrect. If I am, I will apologize. If not, I will clarify.

Thank you.

 

[mysteriew]

Of course, we're only able to go by what MSM has reported (which may be in error), but it has said that she died after arriving at the hospital:

• Per VIDEO, the little girl was still alive when police arrived:
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/n...old-girl-stabb

• Leila “rushed” to hospital (to me this implies she's still clinging to life--they don't rush a corpse to the hospital)
http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_135af3fe-af98-11e2-a554-0019bb2963f4.html

• 12:55 Leila arrives at hospital - “DIES MINUTES AFTER ARRIVAL” (CNN)
http://www.modbee.com/2013/04/28/2691097/calaveras-county-manhunt-continues.html#storylink=cpy

Leila died minutes after arriving at the hospital, authorities said. She died of shock and hemorrhages from her wounds, the Calaveras County Coroner's office said.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/14/justice/california-stabbing-death/

• Arrived at hospital at 12:55 and pronounced dead at 1:01:

http://www.uniondemocrat.com/News/Local-News/Suspects-ruled-out-in-slaying

http://www.modbee.com/2013/04/28/2691097/calaveras-county-manhunt-continues.html

I used to be an EMT in Ohio. MamaBear is correct. An EMT arrives on the scene cannot declare death. That person is considered alive. Even if no pulse or respiration. It is a judgement call whether you load and go or try to give lifesaving measures. But for a child, even if the child is a little cold EMS will usually still go all out.
Death is pronounced at the hospital. The EMT may have known the situation was lost and the child was dead. But for official purposes death is announced by the doctor.

 

[Jhon]

No lol. It would be more accurate to say we don't know enough about the situation or the child to say if it was the situation or something else. Which leaves it open for speculation.

You are absolutely correct! I'm glad you see that! But I would ask "speculation" or "WAG"? What I'm strongly trying to display is that guessing about this family will do no service to this family or Leila.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Of course, we're only able to go by what MSM has reported (which may be in error), but it has said that she died after arriving at the hospital:

&#8226; Per VIDEO, the little girl was still alive when police arrived:
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/n...old-girl-stabb

&#8226; Leila &#8220;rushed&#8221; to hospital (to me this implies she's still clinging to life--they don't rush a corpse to the hospital)
http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_135af3fe-af98-11e2-a554-0019bb2963f4.html

&#8226; 12:55 Leila arrives at hospital - &#8220;DIES MINUTES AFTER ARRIVAL&#8221; (CNN)
http://www.modbee.com/2013/04/28/2691097/calaveras-county-manhunt-continues.html#storylink=cpy

Leila died minutes after arriving at the hospital, authorities said. She died of shock and hemorrhages from her wounds, the Calaveras County Coroner's office said.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/14/justice/california-stabbing-death/

&#8226; Arrived at hospital at 12:55 and pronounced dead at 1:01:

http://www.uniondemocrat.com/News/Local-News/Suspects-ruled-out-in-slaying

http://www.modbee.com/2013/04/28/2691097/calaveras-county-manhunt-continues.html

IMO, she was probably already dead. I say that because in many of the cases I've followed it's been reported wrongly. Considering shes a minor child ...they would want a doctor to pronounce. IMO


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[MsFacetious]

IMO, she was probably already dead. I say that because in many of the cases I've followed it's been reported wrongly. Considering shes a minor child ...they would want a doctor to pronounce. IMO

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I also don't think any EMT wants to tell them, in their own house, that their child is dead and they are not going to transport them to the hospital.
That could get ugly fast and I'd probably transport just to avoid that. :twocents:

 

[Linda7NJ]

No one has said that for sure this is what caused it. Only that it is a *possibility*. Speaking personally, I was answering posts that seemed to say its completely impossible for a volatile family life to cause mental illness, and trying to show that the few facts we do have from MSM seem to indicate a certain level of discord/chaos/disharmony/volatility/instability/pickyourownadjective.

I never said anything was impossible.

I stated a contentious divorce and child support issues do not equal mental illness nor would it explain a murder by one child of another.




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[blue22]

Does anyone have (I can't find them online) statistics of how rare teenagers committing violent homicide is? More importantly, how rare it is to murder a sibling? Not just murder them, but by stabbing multiple times and lying about it? The fact that I can't seem to find any statistics, says to me it could exceedingly rare.

What is not uncommon is divorce, broken homes, putting down of step or bio parents, not knowing a bio parent, having a mixed family, financial strife, abuse, neglect. Out of all the millions of children and teenagers who go through this, a tiny fraction of them might go on to murder as a teen. An even smaller fraction by stabbing many times. An even smaller fraction, by leading on a wild goose chase and lying about it. If that were a reaction, that could leap from turbulence in the home, to murdering a sibling and lying...wouldn't it happen more often? Wouldn't MORE teenagers break and do the same thing? Yes, everyone reacts differently. If a traumatic home life was causation for murder, why is this still rare? But, when you have millions of children going through the same and worse, and only a handful react THAT kind of different...can't we deduct there is likely serious mental illness going on?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Does anyone have (I cna't find them online) statistics of how rare teenagers committing violent homicide is? More importantly, how rare it is to murder a sibling? Not just murder them, but by stabbing multiple times and lying about it? The fact that I can't seem to find any statistics, says to me it could exceedingly rare.

What is not uncommon is divorce, broken homes, putting down of step or bio parents, not knowing a bio parent, having a mixed family, financial strife, abuse, neglect. Out of all the millions of children and teenagers who go through this, a tiny fraction of them might go on to murder as a teen. An even smaller fraction by stabbing many times. An even smaller fraction, by leading on a wild goose chase and lying about it. If that were a reaction, that could leap from turbulence in the home, to murdering a sibling and lying...wouldn't it happen more often? Wouldn't MORE teenagers break and do the same thing? Yes, everyone reacts differently. If a traumatic home life was causation for murder, why is this still rare? But, when you have millions of children going through the same and worse, and only a handful react THAT kind of different...can't we deduct there is likely serious mental illness going on?

Check the FBI database. They keep track


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[Linda7NJ]

Does anyone have (I can't find them online) statistics of how rare teenagers committing violent homicide is? More importantly, how rare it is to murder a sibling? Not just murder them, but by stabbing multiple times and lying about it? The fact that I can't seem to find any statistics, says to me it could exceedingly rare.

What is not uncommon is divorce, broken homes, putting down of step or bio parents, not knowing a bio parent, having a mixed family, financial strife, abuse, neglect. Out of all the millions of children and teenagers who go through this, a tiny fraction of them might go on to murder as a teen. An even smaller fraction by stabbing many times. An even smaller fraction, by leading on a wild goose chase and lying about it. If that were a reaction, that could leap from turbulence in the home, to murdering a sibling and lying...wouldn't it happen more often? Wouldn't MORE teenagers break and do the same thing? Yes, everyone reacts differently. If a traumatic home life was causation for murder, why is this still rare? But, when you have millions of children going through the same and worse, and only a handful react THAT kind of different...can't we deduct there is likely serious mental illness going on?

IMO it makes it more likely they were born a psychopath.


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[Jhon]

If that were a reaction, that could leap from turbulence in the home, to murdering a sibling and lying...wouldn't it happen more often? Wouldn't MORE teenagers break and do the same thing? Yes, everyone reacts differently. If a traumatic home life was causation for murder, why is this still rare? But, when you have millions of children going through the same and worse, and only a handful react THAT kind of different...can't we deduct there is likely serious mental illness going on?

How dare you bring reason in to this discussion! Turn in your decoder ring at once! (heh).

YES! Thank you! You get it!