GUILTY CA - Manuel Ortega & others for gang rape of 15yo girl, Richmond, 2009

[jjenny]

All I'm saying is no one deserves to learn that lesson the way this poor girl did. No one.

Whether or not anyone thinks she made a wise choice, the person who didn't realize that not all boys are nice and respectful towards women should never have to discover the truth through two plus hours of gang rape. As I said, naivete is not illegal. Gang rape is. And it is not something we should assume all young men are capable of. We should assume that they have the decency to behave like human beings and not animals.

I don't think anyone should assume all young men are capable of this. But we know some are. I sure wouldn't be teaching my daughter that all young men are nice and respectful towards women.

 

[songline]

It is NOT blaming the victim to ask "what in the hell were you doing THERE with those people in the first place???"

A person SHOULD be able to walk through a crowd of rapists without being raped, or down an alley and not get beat up and mugged.

But there IS a shred of responsibility for putting YOURSELF in the line of fire.

I am speaking AS a victim of violence (domestic) who is hidden from her perp. There is NO HOPE for people like me unless we accept that OUR behavior has a relationship to the violence we experienced. Our behavior is not to BLAME for our injuries. Merely our proximity to the violent person. The power in accepting this "responsibility" is that we can get AWAY and STAY AWAY, keep ourselves safe with our own smarts.

It is a very delicate distinction for a victim of violence to separate our his/her "responsibility" and NO WHERE in there lies BLAME for the violence itself. That is entirely the perp's fault. But we got ourselves CLOSE to the perp, and in my case, I stayed around for more. My decision, entirely. I have no hope if I see myself as entirely victimized, because I want to do something in the FUTURE to prevent such a circumstance again. And that solution is seeing that I placed myself in danger. Though I deserved nothing of the abuse that happened, not one bit, and am not to blame, I stayed and took it for seven years. How to undo that? Take responsibility for MY part. Staying. Being there in the first place . It is freedom and power for the victim to accept his/her part, not BLAME.

ITA
but sometimes a 15 year old who is raised in a cocoon may not be able to decipher the difference.

from what I gather she was a good student, went to church; and at this age was starting to have interest in boys....

Maybe she was overprotected and did not have the understanding you speak of. And based on the fact that she wanted to be nice to the bad boys in school, I gather she had very poor self esteem.

At her age I went the other way when I had seen the bad boys, I too lived in a very funky area at that age. As a teen it was the bad boys who did protect me - nobody dared to mess with me...because the bad boys liked me. I did not shun them, I did say hi to them, I did give them the Homework assignment if asked, I did help them in class,
but I always went the other way not wanting to mix with them.
I was more afraid of my MOM then I was of them...LOL
she would have killed me if I hung out with any of them for 1 minute. So I was in NO cocoon, I knew it was not good to do.

I gather she was only 15 and lived a very clean cut life, but did not know any better.

 

[Texas Mist]

<snip>

RICHMOND, Calif. -- A seventh suspect has been arrested in connection with the gang rape of a 15-year-old girl outside a California high school homecoming dance.

Richmond Police Lt. Mark Gagan says a 21-year-old man from Richmond was arrested Tuesday morning on suspicion of rape, rape in concert with force and other charges that could lead to life in prison if convicted.

more here

http://www.sacbee.com/827/story/2302360.html

 

[gxm]

I don't think anyone should assume all young men are capable of this. But we know some are. I sure wouldn't be teaching my daughter that all young men are nice and respectful towards women.

Unfortunately, when young girls are raised around respectful men (fathers, uncles, brothers) it's all they know and they really don't have the experience that imbues caution. It's like my grandson and the stove. He's fearless because he doesn't have the knowledge wrought from experience to recognize the danger.

 

[PeteyGirl]

ITA
but sometimes a 15 year old who is raised in a cocoon may not be able to decipher the difference.

from what I gather she was a good student, went to church; and at this age was starting to have interest in boys....

Maybe she was overprotected and did not have the understanding you speak of. And based on the fact that she wanted to be nice to the bad boys in school, I gather she had very poor self esteem.

(snipped)

I know what it's like to encounter someone dangerous and literally NOT KNOW IT. I am still a very "face value" kind of person, and have only learned from my experience with my abuser to temper that simplicity with hard earned caution.

It's not so important that "she should have known" because most of the time, we need the direct experience to really BELIEVE the cautionary tales. A girl raised in a cocoon would have HEARD the cautionary tales but had no frame of reference to make them "real".

Now, sadly, she does

She is not to blame for her rape because she didn't listen to the cautionary tales. The rape is a consequence of her incaution and naivete, but she did not CAUSE herself to be raped. Again, that "fine" distinction which looks like the Gulf of Mexico from my perspective, anyway.

 

[Columbo]

I'm wondering why she was so anxious to please the bad boys (this was before the rape, and it must have been the ones who attended school with her)...per her counselor at school. Maybe they were the only boys who paid attention to her, and at her age, she was interested in exploring friendships with boys? That would be normal, I think--even though apparently the attention those creeps gave her (even before the rape) was rather ugly and mean. But she was too naive to realize that bad boys really can be evil ? It's all just such a pity. Because she was too compliant with them before, they saw her as a target on homecoming night. :furious:

 

[joga]

victim speaks for first time in a written statement read at vigil...

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/03/crimesider/entry5206544.shtml

 

[ebbie]

ITA
but sometimes a 15 year old who is raised in a cocoon may not be able to decipher the difference.

from what I gather she was a good student, went to church; and at this age was starting to have interest in boys....

Maybe she was overprotected and did not have the understanding you speak of. And based on the fact that she wanted to be nice to the bad boys in school, I gather she had very poor self esteem.

At her age I went the other way when I had seen the bad boys, I too lived in a very funky area at that age. As a teen it was the bad boys who did protect me - nobody dared to mess with me...because the bad boys liked me. I did not shun them, I did say hi to them, I did give them the Homework assignment if asked, I did help them in class,
but I always went the other way not wanting to mix with them.
I was more afraid of my MOM then I was of them...LOL
she would have killed me if I hung out with any of them for 1 minute. So I was in NO cocoon, I knew it was not good to do.

I gather she was only 15 and lived a very clean cut life, but did not know any better.

There is obviously something wrong when a large group of boys (I won't call them men) don't know right from wrong. One or two, maybe but dozens ready and willing to rape??:waitasec: Thats telling in itself.

I just don't find it respectful to blame the victim for being naive and trusting and well....a 15 year old girl!

Do we want 15 year old girls to have to grow up seasoned and hardened to all potential crimes? Carrying weapons, knowing all about sex, hanging with gangs for protection?

That is drawing focus away from the fact that rape is a crime.

 

[PeteyGirl]

I'm wondering why she was so anxious to please the bad boys (this was before the rape, and it must have been the ones who attended school with her)...per her counselor at school. Maybe they were the only boys who paid attention to her, and at her age, she was interested in exploring friendships with boys? That would be normal, I think--even though apparently the attention those creeps gave her (even before the rape) was rather ugly and mean. But she was too naive to realize that bad boys really can be evil ? It's all just such a pity. Because she was too compliant with them before, they saw her as a target on homecoming night. :furious:

It's as if the innocent, naive girls are the perfect compliment to the "bad boys". The naivety glosses over the outrageous behavior . . . it sees the behavior as "wrong" but doesn't register it as a potential danger. Mainly because no such danger has ever been experienced. No frame of reference. They are the perfect targets and they sort of "draw" each other together. A sweet, overly pleasing and compliant girl who overlooks bad behavior for the sake of some attention is a sitting duck.

I was so naive and needy (at the age of 33) that I justified my ex's bizarre behavior as "flukes" because he was so attentive and "loving". I was so naive that it never occurred to me I was witnessing the behavior of a "bad" person capable of evil acts. Bad people were always "out there somewhere" bothering other people lol. Not me. That's how sheltered *I* was, and what made me a perfect target.

 

[songline]

There is obviously something wrong when a large group of boys (I won't call them men) don't know right from wrong. One or two, maybe but dozens ready and willing to rape??:waitasec: Thats telling in itself.

I just don't find it respectful to blame the victim for being naive and trusting and well....a 15 year old girl!

Do we want 15 year old girls to have to grow up seasoned and hardened to all potential crimes? Carrying weapons, knowing all about sex, hanging with gangs for protection?

That is drawing focus away from the fact that rape is a crime.

Nobody was blaming a 15 year old...
Since you are quoting my post I will have to say - Don't stand on a soap box about that to me please.
YES there is something really wrong with that entire area...CC County is also where Jaycee Dugard was able to be hidden for 18 years...What is with LE there? what is with the moral code there? and WHY?

 

[songline]

victim speaks for first time in a written statement read at vigil...

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/03/crimesider/entry5206544.shtml

This is a very special beautiful family....In the face of evil they still take the high road :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

:rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose:

CONTRA COSTA COUNTY - now that is another story;
They do not deserve our claps or flowers, but sever reticule for being one of the worst LE in the Country. JMO

 

[songline]

I'm wondering why she was so anxious to please the bad boys (this was before the rape, and it must have been the ones who attended school with her)...per her counselor at school. Maybe they were the only boys who paid attention to her, and at her age, she was interested in exploring friendships with boys? That would be normal, I think--even though apparently the attention those creeps gave her (even before the rape) was rather ugly and mean. But she was too naive to realize that bad boys really can be evil ? It's all just such a pity. Because she was too compliant with them before, they saw her as a target on homecoming night. :furious:

Columbo: sometimes the parents that teach you to do all the right things are strict...
My Mom sure was. The only reason I did not get in any trouble was I was afraid of her, not the bad boys. LOL
Strict also fosters low self esteem....I pretended to be OK but deep inside I know I was different.
I later learned that my self esteem was not good.
Fortunately for me I used my Drama class to express my strengths and weaknesses. and to build some self esteem.
From what I am reading; this girl while a good student who went to church had to have self esteem issues. JMO

They came out with all positive messages to the community... YES they did take the high road...
But where is the outrage ???? It is almost unnatural.....:angel:

 

[Trino]

It is NOT blaming the victim to ask "what in the hell were you doing THERE with those people in the first place???"

A person SHOULD be able to walk through a crowd of rapists without being raped, or down an alley and not get beat up and mugged.

But there IS a shred of responsibility for putting YOURSELF in the line of fire.

I am speaking AS a victim of violence (domestic) who is hidden from her perp. There is NO HOPE for people like me unless we accept that OUR behavior has a relationship to the violence we experienced. Our behavior is not to BLAME for our injuries. Merely our proximity to the violent person. The power in accepting this "responsibility" is that we can get AWAY and STAY AWAY, keep ourselves safe with our own smarts.

It is a very delicate distinction for a victim of violence to separate our his/her "responsibility" and NO WHERE in there lies BLAME for the violence itself. That is entirely the perp's fault. But we got ourselves CLOSE to the perp, and in my case, I stayed around for more. My decision, entirely. I have no hope if I see myself as entirely victimized, because I want to do something in the FUTURE to prevent such a circumstance again. And that solution is seeing that I placed myself in danger. Though I deserved nothing of the abuse that happened, not one bit, and am not to blame, I stayed and took it for seven years. How to undo that? Take responsibility for MY part. Staying. Being there in the first place . It is freedom and power for the victim to accept his/her part, not BLAME.

If you send your child to a school where she's surrounded by life, who is she supposed to interact with?

 

[Columbo]

If you send your child to a school where she's surrounded by life, who is she supposed to interact with?

It's probably because of location and economics that she had to go to that high school--not choice. However if a parent knows that a school has a gang element and is in a dodgy neighborhood, they should be vigilant with their children regarding safety. NOT saying her parents were bad parents, they may have tried to do this. If her dad was picking her up after the dance that says a lot to me--some kids are just out roaming around with unknown people.

 

[ebbie]

ITA
but sometimes a 15 year old who is raised in a cocoon may not be able to decipher the difference.

from what I gather she was a good student, went to church; and at this age was starting to have interest in boys....

Maybe she was overprotected and did not have the understanding you speak of. And based on the fact that she wanted to be nice to the bad boys in school, I gather she had very poor self esteem.

At her age I went the other way when I had seen the bad boys, I too lived in a very funky area at that age. As a teen it was the bad boys who did protect me - nobody dared to mess with me...because the bad boys liked me. I did not shun them, I did say hi to them, I did give them the Homework assignment if asked, I did help them in class,
but I always went the other way not wanting to mix with them.
I was more afraid of my MOM then I was of them...LOL
she would have killed me if I hung out with any of them for 1 minute. So I was in NO cocoon, I knew it was not good to do.

I gather she was only 15 and lived a very clean cut life, but did not know any better.

Nobody was blaming a 15 year old...
Since you are quoting my post I will have to say - Don't stand on a soap box about that to me please.

Chill please.....Not everyone agrees that its admirable or smart to buddy up to the local thugs. You seem to be proud of it though.

btw....I was standing on a cocoon, not a soapbox.:crazy:

 

[songline]

Chill please.....Not everyone agrees that its admirable or smart to buddy up to the local thugs. You seem to be proud of it though.

btw....I was standing on a cocoon, not a soapbox.:crazy:

I have no buddies who are thugs...READ...I never said anything of that sort....
I said I helped them in the class, I also said I always stayed away from them, My Mom drilled that in.
"At her age I went the other way when I had seen the bad boys" this is from my quote.
"I did not shun them, I did say hi to them, I did give them the Homework assignment if asked"This is what I said.
Do not quote me.....When you are misleading what I said, That is NO cocoon when you are
quoting someone, it is a soapbox.

 

[songline]

Richmond police release 911 tape of gang-rape report
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_13722179?nclick_check=1

911 tape released in Bay Area gang rape
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gang-rape6-2009nov06,0,4421957.story

 

[angelmom]

Amazing how, according to their families, all of those arrested just happened to be walking by and didn't really do anything. Incredible that LE couldn't manage to get one of the rapists, just a bunch of innocent boys on their way home...past the dumpsters!!! GMAB!

I guess DNA will be the nail in their coffin. Wonder what the families will say then?

 

[Columbo]

Amazing how, according to their families, all of those arrested just happened to be walking by and didn't really do anything. Incredible that LE couldn't manage to get one of the rapists, just a bunch of innocent boys on their way home...past the dumpsters!!! GMAB!

I guess DNA will be the nail in their coffin. Wonder what the families will say then?

Are all of the families of those arrested now claiming that their sons were "just walking by" ? I thought there was only one family claiming that--the family of Marcelles (sp?) Peter. I must have missed something (?) :waitasec:

 

[sniperacer]

I guess DNA will be the nail in their coffin.

Sorry, I have to ask this. For the sake of discussion, let's assuming there is "fluid" from each rapist. How do you do a DNA test in a gang rape? Did the "rape kit" collect 100% of the "fluid". Are they going to DNA test each "swimmer"? I see legal holes?