Still Missing CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), California City, 21 Dec 2020 #3

[MadTing]

Those little skinny super dried out desert debris twigs he was colleting wouldn't last 5 mins in a fire.

 

[MadTing]

Hands down the number one most intriguing thing i want to know is how the interviews with the other kids have gone and what have they said when questioned about their missing brothers.

 

[MoeInVA]

wouldn't you keep it quiet if you did that though?
You'd tell family that you decided to 'give them back' to the adoption/foster services. You wouldn't tell LE anything at all. You'd stay as far under the radar as possible, right?

Exactly! Pure speculation follows... (based on old photos, no sightings, old medical records)

Hypothetically if the kids have been missing a long time or were re-homed/sold a while ago, what would have forced the parents to call 911 now?
We have speculated about the holiday and family expecting to see them. But wouldn’t it have been easier to say the birth mom got them back or they were placed elsewhere or something?

So just hypothetically if not family, what could have spurred this call?

- Government agency?? was the government checking on them? children services - a new check in or recertification of adoption benefits issue (it doesn’t seem like the govt is aware of any medical care... which seems like a red flag for adoption benefits Does CA check on these cases with AAP monitoring?), a benefits fraud investigation, tax audit? Did they need to submit some kind of medical records in order to continue getting benefits or back up their tax filing? Did they want to foster more kids but needed to account for two being missing/ home study?

-Financial reason: Did they just wait to report missing until they could secure a mortgage and buy a comfortable home based on inflated income from the adoption benefits? Or did they run into an issue getting a mortgage for the new house that they couldn’t get the loan they needed because of the number of kids or something? And thought reporting that they only had 4 kids could fix it?

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Article and video dated Dec 25

New video shows an FBI forensic team searching outside the home.

FBI agents in hazmat suits were seen on the property.
Home of missing California City boys, ages 3 and 4, searched by FBI
Can anyone see what’s inside where the lights are? Better capture in attached file.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Article and video dated Dec 25
View attachment 279510
New video shows an FBI forensic team searching outside the home.

FBI agents in hazmat suits were seen on the property.
Home of missing California City boys, ages 3 and 4, searched by FBI
Can anyone see what’s inside where the lights are? Better capture in attached file.

Just a small correction.
This was discussed at the time of this search, and those aren't hazmat suits.
Just the typical evidence collection coveralls.

 

[fcavanaugh]

This is interesting. Note the first question is answered "yes" without qualification. This is likely true.
The second question however when its directly about, Orrin and Orson he says, "Not necessarily". This suggest (the former) that there were "signs/evidence" of kids in the home just not them.
How did he distinguish between the both?

IMO the Chief couldn’t commit to saying there were signs/evidence of O & O in the home because they went into a home where supposedly 6 children resided, and all he could confirm at that point in time was yes, they saw signs/evidence of kids living in the home i.e., toys, other kid items strewn around etc., but not necessarily signs/evidence of O & O because they either saw other things in and around the home and/or during their interviews w/the parents and other family members (Grandma, the other children), were told things that raised their suspicions/things weren’t adding up, possibly a combination of all of the above, and the Chief has his reasons for not divulging to the public and going into specific detail as to how LE distinguished between both, like wanting to protect their investigation, not tipping their hand etc.

If LE suspicions were raised after their interviews with the parents and other family members and during their initial search of the home, they aren’t going to just take the parents word that, yeah this toy, item, toothbrush etc, etc belongs to Orrin and Orson. If there were age appropriate toys or clothing the right size of the 2 boys in the home, doesn’t prove they ever actually lived in the home either, especially if some of their other children are around O & O ages.

In a nutshell, I think after speaking with the parents and initial search of the home, LE hinky meter’s may have gone on high alert and if so, they are going to want to collect items from the home and test for the boy’s DNA and for their hand/fingerprints in and around the home.
So to me the Chief’s “not necessarily” comment makes sense because at that point in time he couldn’t say for sure, as they were still in the process of collecting evidence from the home to be sent out for testing/awaiting results of DNA and fingerprint testing. He could have said, “I can’t confirm or deny“, but decided to say “not necessarily“, which to me, basically means the same thing.

All of the above is speculation and MOO.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

@Hexe are these your own words & thoughts or did I miss an inventory?

Something so ubiquitous with kids. Fingerprints, Handprints. MOO

 

[imstilla.grandma]

I’m worried LE doesn’t have much to go on. You’d think with a $100,000 reward someone would come forward with info.

I think someone out there, in there, might break. Like Chief said - someone knows something. Money talks...

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

I think someone out there, in there, might break. Like Chief said - someone knows something. Money talks...

I hope it shouts for Orrin,and Orson.

 

[BoyThatsWeird]

Exactly! Pure speculation follows... (based on old photos, no sightings, old medical records)

Hypothetically if the kids have been missing a long time or were re-homed/sold a while ago, what would have forced the parents to call 911 now?
We have speculated about the holiday and family expecting to see them. But wouldn’t it have been easier to say the birth mom got them back or they were placed elsewhere or something?

Hi, I edited your post. I think the problem was that if they were in fact seeing family over the holidays, and they lied about where the kids were, they now bring their family into this. When it eventually comes to light they're gone they will ask extended family when is the last time you've seen them etc? So you've seen the rest of the boys *advertiser censored* number of times and didn't think something was wrong when you never saw O&O? I think TW is trying to protect his extended family as if he had a sibling in a public role, in a public organization.

All IMO.

 

[Vae Victus]

I have a question for you guys. What are your thoughts or theories on what got them to search Silver Saddle?

I watched the interview two days ago with Bayan Wang and chief Walker. He said they were searching there that day because "a citizen said they possibly saw a white van coming from there a couple days prior to the kids going missing" (Cal City Police Chief provides updates about missing boys case).

However, when I watched Walker's first interview with KGET back on December 29th (linked & time stamped below) two women walk up to him on the street and give him that tip right then and there, with a third saying she heard the same thing. He initially dismissed it, then realized he heard her wrong when a reporter asked him to clarify what he meant, and told them that they "could follow up on that".

My question is did it really take them that long to gather fifty LE personnel for the search? Or did they get more tips about the area since then? Because in the December 29th interview he told reporters that since they were so small they weren't going to spend their limited resources on that (one of the women suggested doing a grid search of the desert, presumably the Silver Saddle tip they just gave) and he wanted to focus their search on the house. Well, he said "right here" so I'm not sure if he meant the house/neighborhood/city.

So, have you guys heard people talking much about the abandoned resort prior to this? Or do you think they were waiting for some kind of search warrant to come through and were caught up in red tape because the place has been shut down since July? Or was that just them "following up on it"?

That struck me as interesting because I had forgotten about hearing the area mentioned back in December and I'm wondering what your guys' thoughts are. I didn't see if this was covered earlier in the thread.

16:55

 

[wary]

Here’s a question. People talk about ‘rehoming.’ Where is a comparable case where a missing child is proven to be ‘rehomed?’

Edited to fix autocorrect’s sabotage.

 

[MoeInVA]

Here’s a question. People talk about ‘rejoicing.’ Where is a comparable case where a missing child is proven to be ‘rehomed?’

Yeah I have never heard of a case of a child being sold or re-homed and then reported missing. And then the parents came under fire and still didn’t admit rehoming.

Curious if anyone else has? I am very skeptical of that theory but it is strangely discussed a lot in this case. I suppose because people who subscribe to that theory just want the kids to be alive. Or maybe they are QAnon people.

 

[susiQ]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

I wonder when Grandma last saw them? Took a pic of them? Bought them a gift? What did she buy them. Did LE find them at the CC home. Bakersfield is only an hour away. One could hardly consider going to Grandma’s a “vacation.” <modsnip: We don't know what she does or does not know>

I strongly suspect his rather high profile brother isn’t buying the story either. I feel these boys will not be found if they’ve been missing for an extended period of time, unless of course, someone starts singing when the heat gets turned up. If not, a strong circumstantial case needed. Patience. LE will get there. MOO

 

[wary]

Yeah I have never heard of a case of a child being sold or re-homed and then reported missing. And then the parents came under fire and still didn’t admit rehoming.

Curious if anyone else has? I am very skeptical of that theory but it is strangely discussed a lot in this case. I suppose because people who subscribe to that theory just want the kids to be alive. Or maybe they are QAnon people.

It’s brought up a lot in missing child cases. I think that people just desperately want them to be alive. I do too—but whatever happened, it’s looking terribly unlikely.

 

[susiQ]

Yeah I have never heard of a case of a child being sold or re-homed and then reported missing. And then the parents came under fire and still didn’t admit rehoming.

Curious if anyone else has? I am very skeptical of that theory but it is strangely discussed a lot in this case. I suppose because people who subscribe to that theory just want the kids to be alive. Or maybe they are QAnon people.

Well, for me “sold or re-homed” are a different animal. If re-homed, I would suspect the parents would, under extreme suspicion and pressure admit what they did. If sold for goodness knows what, why would they admit that. Keep their mouth shut and hope LE can’t build a case. I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but I do believe in conspiracies to commit atrocities against children. It IS a thing and you don’t have to be a QAnon follower. I’m not

Granted, them having sold the boys is not on the top of my list, but in my mind, not entirely off the table. We really don’t know enough at this point other than we HIGHLY suspect the parents are involved and their story isn’t adding up.....at all. JMHO

 

[MsMarple]

JAN 14, 2021
Reward for missing boys increases to $100K | News | desertnews.com

Kern County Sheriff's Office vehicles stage in front of Silver Saddle Ranch on Aristotle Drive Wednesday morning, Jan. 13, while 50 officers and deputies search the grounds for Orson and Orrin West, two toddlers reported missing in California City on Dec. 21. According to Cal City Police, no signs were found.

[...]

In Jan. 13 interview with Bakersfield news station 23ABC, CCPD Chief Jon Walker said 50 personnel from multiple agencies searched Silver Saddle Ranch based on a tip from a resident. The compliment included California City police officers and KCSO's search and rescue team, who furnished a small boat.

"We're still looking and following up on tips, clues, anything that they can come up with," Walker said in that interview. He added he did not want to think of the search as a body recovery "because we don't have any information to prove that."

"Just because we can't find them doesn't mean their not alive," Walker said. "We really hope they are alive and they are safe."

[...]

"Bill Garcia Investigative services has been providing pro bono investigations for missing and abducted children for twenty eight years and have never been accused of fabricating witness sightings or been threatened by law enforcement," Garcia's statement reads. "In any event, I am concluding our efforts and pray that officials will followup properly. Good karma to all."

10717 Aspen Ave, California City, to Silver Saddle 20751 Aristotle Dr - Google Maps

From your link:

Walker, in Wednesday's interview with 23ABC, said he had checked with Tehachapi Police Department and TPD had not received that lead. He added while Garcia has the right to follow his own investigation, he cautioned that the private detective's team should tread carefully so as not to hinder an investigation.

Garcia's firm on Thursday issued a statement in response to Walker's comment with the intent to withdraw its efforts.

"Bill Garcia Investigative services has been providing pro bono investigations for missing and abducted children for twenty eight years and have never been accused of fabricating witness sightings or been threatened by law enforcement," Garcia's statement reads. "In any event, I am concluding our efforts and pray that officials will followup properly. Good karma to all."
[end]

What kind of PI acts on a lead but doesn't notify LE? That's really weird and so is getting his nose out of joint when Chief Walker didn't welcome him into the investigation. Was he actually "accused of fabricating witness sightings or been threatened by law enforcement?"

And FWIW, I can't remember a case where a reward - big or small - led to someone coming forward to help solve a case. It does help to keep the case in the news though IMO.

 

[Panhypopit]

I know people are commenting on the lack of toys and that the house looks like kids don’t live there... the parents may be narcissistic or overly controlling.

I was not adopted, nor my brother... but we moved around a lot and there was never a toy outside, a toy car, a swing set... my dad was completely obsessed by money and never wanted to buy us things we would grow out of, and the twins being dressed in black and grey remind me of this mindset. Nothing cute, nothing with a cartoon or other character... we barely got clothing to go to school. Thankfully his mom gave us clothes.

His control was crazy, we had to only eat a certain amount and that was it, use a regulated amount of toilet paper or tissues... he would calculate the cost of everything (even us) and when I graduated college (at the insistence of his parents) he gave me a cheap pen and pencil set, and told me to the penny how much I cost him from a ledger.

I am not trying to garner sympathy... the jerk is dead, not missed. He watched as I fell through the ice in a pond in front of him and did not help or say a thing. He did not care. My point is that people are out there who have very strong control over the family unit and lack ... something! These people exist. Sadly.

Those poor kids. I hope they can be found safely.

 

[nyvictoria]

I believe a PI has an obligation to notify LE that he’s working on a case in their jurisdiction. Does he notify local LE and leave it up to them to notify the primary investigative agency? Should he notify both? If he didn’t speak to LE before investigating, then that’s on him.

 

[Laughing]

@Panhypopit , wow, glad you survived!!!