Found Deceased CA - Rachel Nguyen, 20, & Joseph Orbeso, 21, Joshua Tree Nat'l Park, 27 July 2017 #1

[lookit]

I'm still hung up on why the fatal shots weren't noticed. The searches started the day after they entered the park and continued for consecutive days for a week or more. Some of the searches included horses or dogs (or both), both of which species have far more sensitive, and therefore better, hearing than humans. Even assuming no humans heard any gun shots, is it likely that dogs and horses would not have alerted to shots they might have heard fired? I'm assuming many of the searchers were very experienced and would have noticed if the animals had alerted or spooked to something undetected (unseen/unheard) by their handlers. I guess I just don't understand where the bodies were found in relation to where the early-on searches were conducted. And, as I've previously stated, I have no idea how far gun fire would carry out there. Is there a map master among us who can post where the searches were conducted and where the bodies were found? Also, do we have any ballistics experts who can give insights on how far gun fire carries in the desert during the hottest part of the year?

 

[bluesneakers]

this article has new information about the positioning of the clothing
http://www.desertsun.com/story/news...der-suicide-sheriffs-officials-say/784757001/

They were probably wearing underwear and pulled their shorts down to cover bare skin. It doesn't say they left other parts exposed.

Also from the link:

“There is no indication that he wanted to harm her; that there was any plan for something like this,” Bachman said.

“We’ll probably never know why it happened,” she said. “His motive for doing this, there’s nothing left behind to tell us why.”

 

[ecomango]

This is very tragic! My heart goes out to both families.

I'm still hung up on why the fatal shots weren't noticed. The searches started the day after they entered the park and continued for consecutive days for a week or more. Some of the searches included horses or dogs (or both), both of which species have far more sensitive, and therefore better, hearing than humans. Even assuming no humans heard any gun shots, is it likely that dogs and horses would not have alerted to shots they might have heard fired? I'm assuming many of the searchers were very experienced and would have noticed if the animals had alerted or spooked to something undetected (unseen/unheard) by their handlers. I guess I just don't understand where the bodies were found in relation to where the early-on searches were conducted. And, as I've previously stated, I have no idea how far gun fire would carry out there. Is there a map master among us who can post where the searches were conducted and where the bodies were found? Also, do we have any ballistics experts who can give insights on how far gun fire carries in the desert during the hottest part of the year?

...The shots could have happened in the middle of the night, so he wouldn't see blood everywhere.

 

[lookit]

This is very tragic! My heart goes out to both families.



...The shots could have happened in the middle of the night, so he wouldn't see blood everywhere.

Good point. Also, maybe he wanted wait until she was asleep.

 

[lookit]

This is very tragic! My heart goes out to both families.



...The shots could have happened in the middle of the night, so he wouldn't see blood everywhere.

Further, it could explain the embracing -- huddled to keep warm at night.

 

[ecomango]

Good point that they were wearing underwear, but what's out of place to me is didn't the father say they found clothing, backpack, wrappers, and empty water bottles and followed them to the bodies? I would think the backpack would be next to them, and they would wear all of their clothes instead of pull their shorts down...

They were probably wearing underwear and pulled their shorts down to cover bare skin. It doesn't say they left other parts exposed.

Also from the link:

 

[wsthrow]

I wonder how many shots he fired, if they were stranded did he bother firing in to the air it to attract attention?

 

[2bees]

Is it possible for them to determine when they died? Or if they were already dehydrated etc when they died? It seems to me that there would be more information from the autopsy... and perhaps there will be?

 

[ecomango]

Because of the condition of the bodies, sheriff said, investigators may never know how long Nguyen and Orbeso were in the park before they died

- From the previous link that was posted: http://www.hidesertstar.com/news/article_cef00826-b5be-11e7-8027-17c0f2d84d5c.htm

Is it possible for them to determine when they died? Or if they were already dehydrated etc when they died? It seems to me that there would be more information from the autopsy... and perhaps there will be?

 

[Elainera]

Also from the desert sun link above:

She [sheriff’s department spokeswoman Cynthia Bachman] added that she is not aware of drugs being involved.

http://www.desertsun.com/story/news...der-suicide-sheriffs-officials-say/784757001/

 

[Elainera]

The fact that they covered their legs with their shorts to protect them from the sun would indicate that they died in the daytime - at night they would probably have pulled the shorts back up. imo

 

[everybodhi]

Extreme heat effects the body very quickly and it makes one lose their sense of logic and reason, and extreme heat can exacerbate even mild mental illness.


How 100 Degrees Does a Number on You

High heat and lack of water are prime conditions for multiple organ damage. Internal temperature soars, heart rate goes up, blood flow slows down, and organs begin to shut down. "The body begins to parcel out where the water should go," says Morocco. "There's a contraction of blood flow to the gut, the liver, and the kidneys. People begin to feel really bad." The kidneys shut down, and the heart has to work harder to pump a lower volume of blood through the body. Other organs begin to shut down, then fail.

Under extreme heat conditions, it can all happen very quickly—in an hour or even less. The brain, too, is affected by reduced blood flow. That's why people in the throes of heat illness begin to make poor, often life-threatening, decisions.

Younger, healthy people can get in trouble mostly from a foolish disregard of conditions, like hiking into a shaded canyon in the morning, only to find the heat unbearable for the hike out.

The Effect of Heat Waves on Mental Health in a Temperate Australian City

Above a threshold of 26.7°C, we observed a positive association between ambient temperature and hospital admissions for mental and behavioral disorders. Compared with non–heat-wave periods, hospital admissions increased by 7.3% during heat waves.
Additionally, it has been well documented that, because of behavioral issues and medications that interfere with physiological homeostasis, those with mental illness are susceptible to the effects of extreme heat, as demonstrated by increases in hospital admissions.
Mental illnesses may range from short-term bouts of depression and anxiety to long-term conditions such as developmental impairments, chronic depression, schizophrenia, or chronic anxiety disorders.

Relationship between daily suicide counts and temperature in England and Wales

Above 18 ° C, each 1 °C increase in mean temperature was associated with a 3.8 and 5.0% rise in suicide and violent suicide respectively. Suicide increased by 46.9% during the 1995 heatwave.

 

[JLD333]

Whoever said something about how Joseph should've just walked to get help clearly hasn't hiked much. It IS very easy to get lost on these trails as the trails are not nearly as obvious in sand. This particular trail is called the MAZE for a reason. Add extreme heat and dehydration into the mix and even the most experienced hikers could get lost.
This offers some insight:
http://www.jtphotoguide.com/blog/reflecting-dangers-joshua-tree/

I believe they probably perished within just a day or two of starting their hike. Possibly even that night with the extreme heat and lack of water. It wouldn't surprise me if Rachel had a convulsion or in some way was clearly suffering and close to death and Joseph felt he couldn't bear to watch it. With the clothes being arranged to block the sun, it's pretty clear what happened here. I can't imagine someone would try to stage a murder suicide to look like a mercy killing.

I'd also like to note that regardless of statistics, there are lots of people that carry guns everywhere. Taking a gun on a hike is not really that unusual. I see at least 1 person open carrying a firearm almost every time I go on a day hike here in the mountains of NC, which is something I do pretty frequently.


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[ecomango]

From an article citing Sheriff Bachman's interview:
[FONT=&quot]“They were lost. They were in a bad area there and their resources were either almost gone or gone. Again, they were in a very desperate situation,” Bachman told Channel 7.
[/FONT]
https://mynewsla.com/crime/2017/10/...der-suicide-for-joshua-tree-desperate-hikers/

 

[iliketotalk15]

I have a couple only mildly related thoughts.

One: I think taking into account the age of these two people is important. We all know that the brain isn't fully developed until age 25. Young men around this age are well known for having some kind of belief of invincibility that could have played a role in the behavior of these two young adults. Or maybe they mistakenly believe they were closer to the 'end' of the loop instead of turning back.

Two: Age aside, there have been many cases where even older adults make poor decisions or people who regularly hike end up deceased on trails across the country. Someone mentioned a class that indicates the former in the case of the two French family where the two parents died of heat related causes after they separated on the trail.

Third: The idea of Joshua leaving to 'get help'. Maybe he didn't want to leave Rachel. Maybe he was afraid he wouldn't find her again or that she would die alone in the desert.

 

[whitelilac]

I did an 11 mile hike in the mountains recently with my DD, the first half at an incline, uphill.. It was not hot, and it was not in desert conditions (but at altitudes up to nearly 11,000 feet), plus there were plenty of shady areas to rest before we reached above treeline. We took 7 bottles of water each. Halfway back at the end of the day, we were rationing and being very careful with what was left of our water.

I cannot imagine hiking for a period of several hours in temps of over 100 degrees, plus the added the heat reflection from the sandy ground and bare rocks, the unrelenting sun, without a huge supply of water. It's a recipe for disaster. Dehydration happens very quickly under those conditions, and the effects of panic /anxiety no doubt exacerbate the deterioration of the body and mind.

 

[everybodhi]

Is it possible for them to determine when they died? Or if they were already dehydrated etc when they died? It seems to me that there would be more information from the autopsy... and perhaps there will be?

After three months in the hot desert sun, they lose a lot of evidence, I think even time of death is difficult to determine.

Warning: Graphic

Life after death: the science of human decomposition

Another reason why estimating time of death can be extremely difficult is because the stages of decomposition do not occur discretely, but often overlap, with several taking place simultaneously, and because the rate at which it proceeds can vary widely, depending largely on temperature. Once maggot migration has ended, the cadaver enters the last stages of decay, with just the bones, and perhaps some skin, remain. These final stages of decomposition, and the transition between them, are difficult to identify, because there are far fewer observable changes than at earlier stages.

In the relentless dry heat of the Texas summer, a body left to the elements will mummify rather than decompose fully. The skin will quickly lose all of its moisture, so that it remains clinging to the bones when the process is complete.

The speed of the chemical reactions involved doubles with every 10°C rise in temperature, so a cadaver will reach the advanced stage after 16 days at an average daily temperature of 25°C, and after 80 days at an average daily temperature of 5°C.

 

[Normancita]

I'm having a hard time understanding how he could have been in an embrace with her after fatally shooting himself.


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[ecomango]

Joseph Orbeso's father, Gilbert, has released a statement regarding the Sheriff's findings:

http://www.kesq.com/news/investigat...her-comments-on-desperate-situation/642416453

 

[wsthrow]

I'm having a hard time understanding how he could have been in an embrace with her after fatally shooting himself.


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Why? Wrap his arms tightly around her while holding the gun, points gun at himself, and that would do the trick.