Cadaver dogs have hit on dumpster near home #2

[Shaymus at The Rock]

Oh, I see now.

I don't know... it seems to me that if she was there at all it is most likely she was removed almost right away, before LE descended on the area. Because if she was there all the time, why didn't the search dogs track her scent there?

And I don't really understand why the family would have wanted LE to look at the dumpster if they knew she if she had been there and had been removed.

I mean, I completely understand a distraught family member pointing out this and that and harassing LE officers with "Have you searched here? There? Why not? Do it ASAP! Do I have to search it myself?" in the hopes of finding her, but if the purpose was to not find her, then it's not clear to me.
If LE had overlooked it, what would be the point of pointing out the dumpster and risk that they find some incriminating evidence? They couldn't have known how thorough it was going to be. Why not just leave be and thank the criminal's good fortune that LE overlooked the dumpster in the first place? Was there something planted in that dumpster that they wanted found?

Also, with the police presence and the media, the family, all the curious onlookers and well-wishers camping around there, and the neighbours surely being a bit jumpy, it would have taken some serious guts to have removed a body that had been there for some time and had to have started the decomposition process by that time. Handling a decomposed body would be very unpleasant and possibly leave a tell-tale scent track to the vehicle used in the removal.

It might have been interesting to have the cadaver dogs to go through all the vehicles some time after the disappearance, to see if anyone had moved a body lately.

It's my understanding that search dogs search for living scent. Only cadaver dogs are trained to search for products of decomposition. I agree that the body would had to have been moved very soon - but I understand that decomposition starts very soon. There are long discussions on the timing of it elsewhere in this Forum. So, yep, I think if Haleigh had been laid there, a search dog could've missed her sweet little body, but a cadavar dog could later find evidence that a decomposing human body had been there.

As to motive for asking that the dumpster be searched ? Sincere concern as well as an attempt to misdirect/misinform/distract attention....... IMO, all are possible. Remember the allegations of CA deliberately giving LE the wrong hairbrush ?

 

[Donjeta]

Does the living scent of a person disappear as soon as she's deceased? I thought if it lingers for days or weeks on inanimate objects it surely lingers on in a dead body, or the clothes on it, at least until the decomposition odors are strong enough to cover the scent. I wonder how long it would take.

 

[Shaymus at The Rock]

Does the living scent of a person disappear as soon as she's deceased? I thought if it lingers for days or weeks on inanimate objects it surely lingers on in a dead body, or the clothes on it, at least until the decomposition odors are strong enough to cover the scent. I wonder how long it would take.

IDK, that's a good point. How close to the dumpster did the dogs go that night ? I remember they took several turns.

 

[TxLady2]

Does the living scent of a person disappear as soon as she's deceased? I thought if it lingers for days or weeks on inanimate objects it surely lingers on in a dead body, or the clothes on it, at least until the decomposition odors are strong enough to cover the scent. I wonder how long it would take.

Donjeta, from what I remember during the SP case, a dead body will still give off a live scent for a few hours and some tracking dogs will alert to a body that has been deceased for several hours. In fact, the decomposition gases do not start building in a dead body for 12 hours or more. I don't have a link, sorry, but if you google human decomposition, there is tons of information out there.

 

[pirate]

Here's a link for the day of the dumpster search that PattyG uploaded.

At about the 5:40 mark, JVM mentions TN wanting them to search the dumpster before.
YouTube - ISSUES 2/26/09 Part 1 of 9

If my link doesn't work go to youtube, type in HC then dumpster search.

It's 2/26/09 part 1 of 9.

Several articles state this search was rechecking areas they had already searched, it was not done based on a tip or new information. I don't believe they searched this dumpster again based on a request from TN.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Looks like TN did request that search.

Again, I have to wonder if this was a concerted attempt to focus attention in an area where she knew Haleigh would not be found.

IMO it's very possible that Ron or Misty placed Haleigh's body next to or in that dumpster before it was relocated elsewhere the evening of Feb 9 or early morning hours of Feb 10. If, as some of us assume, TN and GGS were the brains behind the coverup, they would have known that her body laid there for a while and that the dogs would hit on it.

I'm glad that things are becoming more clear. It's good to revisit some of these events.

 

[lakelandladi]

I guess I am missing the point of why if somebody is involved they would point LE in the direction of a crime scene. I can't wrap my mind around that. To me it would be the last place you would want LE to go to, but that is just the way my mind interprets things.

The dumpster area had been searched previously by dogs. None of the previous dog searches which included both K-9 and blood hounds gave any indication that the dumpster had anything to do with Haleigh's disappearance.

VAN SUSTEREN: Have there ever been cadaver dogs at that dumpster after February 9 other than today?

COURSEY: They have had canines out here and bloodhounds, but this is the first time they have had cadaver dogs out. There was seven dogs out today. There will be 12 dogs out tomorrow.

VAN SUSTEREN: I take it the dumpster has been dumped since February 9. Is that right?

COURSEY: No. This was the first time the dumpster was emptied. The area, this lot behind me, has been searched three or four times, police say. But they had bloodhounds out But they never got a hit on the dumpster. They said before tonight's there was really no reason to empty it. Tonight was the first time it was emptied.

Inside all they found was construction debris and leaves and branches, things like that.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,501724,00.html

 

[Shaymus at The Rock]

Here are some interesting articles about search dogs:

http://sardog.org/

http://www.ussartf.org/dogs_search_rescue.htm

 

[Shaymus at The Rock]

And here's an interesting article, another poster found several weeks ago, about the time frames for a dog to detect a living body vs evidence left by a dead body.

PRELIMINARY RESULTS: The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes. However, the post-mortem interval for which we received a consistently correct response from all dogs involved is 2.5 - 3 hours

http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html

 

[Emeralgem]

I guess I am missing the point of why if somebody is involved they would point LE in the direction of a crime scene. I can't wrap my mind around that. To me it would be the last place you would want LE to go to, but that is just the way my mind interprets things.

The dumpster area had been searched previously by dogs. None of the previous dog searches which included both K-9 and blood hounds gave any indication that the dumpster had anything to do with Haleigh's disappearance.

VAN SUSTEREN: Have there ever been cadaver dogs at that dumpster after February 9 other than today?

COURSEY: They have had canines out here and bloodhounds, but this is the first time they have had cadaver dogs out. There was seven dogs out today. There will be 12 dogs out tomorrow.
VAN SUSTEREN: I take it the dumpster has been dumped since February 9. Is that right?

COURSEY: No. This was the first time the dumpster was emptied. The area, this lot behind me, has been searched three or four times, police say. But they had bloodhounds out But they never got a hit on the dumpster. They said before tonight's there was really no reason to empty it. Tonight was the first time it was emptied.

Inside all they found was construction debris and leaves and branches, things like that.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,501724,00.html

BBM....So it is TRUE then that three cadaver dogs hit on that dumpser..That tells me a body of a deceased person was there at some point since they found nothing but construction debris, leaves and branches...

 

[lakelandladi]

"It could be various items, and may not necessarily be something related to the case," said Brian Selzer, of Canine Search and Rescue as investigators searched through the plastic bags found in the Dumpster.

Selzer explained that the dogs brought to Satsuma on Thursday have been trained to alert only on the scent of human decomposition, not meat or dead animals. He said the dogs could hit on something as small as a bandage used to cover a person's bloody cut.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/18805304/detail.html

 

[pirate]

BBM....So it is TRUE then that three cadaver dogs hit on that dumpser..That tells me a body of a deceased person was there at some point since they found nothing but construction debris, leaves and branches...

Yup. And since it appears that TN may have pushed for that specific area to be searched, IMO she knew that Haleigh's body had laid there at some point.

Boy I hope LE is quicker to catch this stuff than we are!!

LOL

 

[Shaymus at The Rock]

BBM....So it is TRUE then that three cadaver dogs hit on that dumpser..That tells me a body of a deceased person was there at some point since they found nothing but construction debris, leaves and branches...

There's a beginning of potential time line here:

+ Move body to dumpster area

+ Body is there long enough for decomposition to begin and be detectable to a cadaver dog. Per the article 1.5-3 hrs.

+ Body is moved to safer location

+ Dumpster is searched by cadaver dogs

JMHO

 

[pirate]

There's a beginning of potential time line here:

+ Move body to dumpster area

+ Body is there long enough for decomposition to begin and be detectable to a cadaver dog. Per the article 1.5-3 hrs.

+ Body is moved to safer location

+ Dumpster is searched by cadaver dogs

JMHO

Hey Shaymus........... are you of the same mindset I am in that you think maybe the searchers were pushed that way in order to distract them from where Haleigh might really be?

I'm feeling more and more like that might be the case. Especially in light of the GVS video in which TN is credited with requesting that the dogs search near that dumpster.

What a tangled web this is. Poor Haleigh.

 

[Donjeta]

Surely LE wouldn't have given up searching other areas they thought she might be just because they searched that dumpster too?

 

[pirate]

Surely LE wouldn't have given up searching other areas they thought she might be just because they searched that dumpster too?

I don't think so Don. But it sure provided the perps and their helpers a few hours during which everyone was focused completely on something else.........

 

[Shaymus at The Rock]

Hey Shaymus........... are you of the same mindset I am in that you think maybe the searchers were pushed that way in order to distract them from where Haleigh might really be?

I'm feeling more and more like that might be the case. Especially in light of the GVS video in which TN is credited with requesting that the dogs search near that dumpster.

What a tangled web this is. Poor Haleigh.

Yes, I think attempts at misdirection could be a definite complication in this case, Pirate. Maybe delay was the goal IDK. It's very sad.

 

[Donjeta]

I don't think so Don. But it sure provided the perps and their helpers a few hours during which everyone was focused completely on something else.........

So, who was and was not accounted for during the search? Who were interviewed or filmed in the mean time?

 

[Kimster]

We are blessed to have a new member who has been verified as a professional in search and rescue with an added bonus in the use of dogs. Her hat is Sarx.

Don't forget that we have a list of professionals that we can draw information from on Websleuths. The list for Haleigh's forum is here: Professional Posters - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Emeralgem]

Thanks for bringing this thread back to life... I miss both Pirate and Shaymus..They were excellent sleuthers..

I truly feel Pirate was "right on" when she stated TN knew Haleigh had been placed in that dumpster for some period of time before she was moved to another destination...And that is WHY she requested LE to search that dumpster...JMO

 

[debs]

Thanks for bringing this thread back to life... I miss both Pirate and Shaymus..They were excellent sleuthers..

I truly feel Pirate was "right on" when she stated TN knew Haleigh had been placed in that dumpster for some period of time before she was moved to another destination...And that is WHY she requested LE to search that dumpster...JMO

Which begs the question....what purpose would it serve to have the dumpster searched if Haleigh wasn't to be found there?