Cadaver Dogs Hits and Info

[TURBOTHINK]

In the medical field, there are a few excellent cancer sniffers, as well as diabetes, seizure sniffers, and others...

One REALLY good melanoma dog. Who unfortunately has since passed.

The dog alerted on a "benign" lesion. The biopsy "proved" the dog wrong. The dog insisted. A second biopsy confirmed that it was benign. The dog persisted. Third time was the charm! Very early melanoma.

Another cancer sniffer alerted on the guy who was certifying him.

Gotta go watch NG!

I have a search/rescue dog, and have met some of the cadaver dog owners and their dogs. The ones who train at UT Anthropology dept can't be fooled, I have been told. One of the trainers told me they can put other type decomp in containers or in the ground and if it is not human decomp, they will alert it is something dead, but not set the alert for human decomp.

They are so well trained they can take human decomp and barely touch a cow liver or something, put it in the ground and the dogs will identify it as human decomp. Amazing.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

didn't those bh dogs hit on a raccoon last time?

If you are talking about the Body Hunter team, no they "alerted" about 60 yards away from the dead raccoon. That was an erroneous story according to the people there at the time.

 

[dejavu101]

Here's the other big problem with "psychics" in these things. They attract media like flies for some insane reason. In this case they might not have alerted police until they found something credible. But there's a reporter there making a big thing out of the bad smell. So LE ends up having to drop whatever they are doing and go chase it down. LE would love to ignore the psychics, at least until or unless they come in with a credible piece of physical evidence. But the media fascination with the psychics measn LE isn't allowed to.

[I confess I do have more then a high degree of scepticism about psychics methods and motives. But that comes after a trio of them once sent me crawling through a narrow rat and trash infested abandonned underground tunnel, that their visions swore contained the little girls body, and that her spirit was crying out to be found. (the little girl in question was alive, 50 miles away, and in extreme danger at the time). The psychics had bought into the kidnappers lies and were freely embelishing on them. Which in turn comitted a 25 person trained ES rescue unit to somebodies fantasies and fiction. I never did succeed in getting the smells and stains completely out of my turnout gear. This is the sort of thing that tends to leave a lasting negative impression about those that wrongfully and idiotically sent a person down the trash tunnel.]

This quote is from David Lohr...its on his website.

 

[Brini]

I have a search/rescue dog, and have met some of the cadaver dog owners and their dogs. The ones who train at UT Anthropology dept can't be fooled, I have been told. One of the trainers told me they can put other type decomp in containers or in the ground and if it is not human decomp, they will alert it is something dead, but not set the alert for human decomp.

They are so well trained they can take human decomp and barely touch a cow liver or something, put it in the ground and the dogs will identify it as human decomp. Amazing.

Thank God that humans and canines became fast friends a few millenia ago! It is SO to the benefit of both species!

 

[Ginny]

I searched for this topic and couldn't find anything but mods, please feel free to move this post if necessary.

I have a question about cadaver dogs and their hits.

I am totally confident that Caylee's body was in the trunk of Casey's Sunfire at some point in time. What I'm not 100% convinced is that Caylee's body was in the Anthony's back yard.

My question is, is it possible that after Caylee's death, Casey removed an article from the Sunfire (ie an article of clothing, Momma (her doll), the car seat, etc.) and placed in the A's backyard resulting in the cadaver hits?

I'm certain that the odor permiated everything in the car and if something was removed and placed in the yard, it would leave a trail behind but I'm not sure if it would be enough for the cadaver dog to alert that spot.

I've done some research and can't seem to find an answer to my question. Does anyone know?

 

[Insomnia Momma]

From everything I've read I don't think it's possible about an item. Once the item would have been moved the scent may linger for a little bit but there isn't anything for it to stick to. The only thing I can think of would be maybe a trash bag put there with some decomp fluids leaking from it.

It still may not have been the body though. It could have been blood, any decomp fluids, bone, etc.

This is all JMO from what I've read and seen in person a few times.

 

[cocoamom]

I searched for this topic and couldn't find anything but mods, please feel free to move this post if necessary.

I have a question about cadaver dogs and their hits.

I am totally confident that Caylee's body was in the trunk of Casey's Sunfire at some point in time. What I'm not 100% convinced is that Caylee's body was in the Anthony's back yard.

My question is, is it possible that after Caylee's death, Casey removed an article from the Sunfire (ie an article of clothing, Momma (her doll), the car seat, etc.) and placed in the A's backyard resulting in the cadaver hits?

I'm certain that the odor permiated everything in the car and if something was removed and placed in the yard, it would leave a trail behind but I'm not sure if it would be enough for the cadaver dog to alert that spot.

I've done some research and can't seem to find an answer to my question. Does anyone know?

I used to live in Chuluota and was engaged for 5 years to a guy who trained dogs for police departments. I helped him train attack dogs, cadaver dogs, drug dogs, tracking dogs - you get the picture. These dogs can hit on the scent of decomposition that is very old. Even microscopic cells that are decomposing long after the fact give off those gasses that they smell.

A dog's nose can smell multiple things at once. You or I walk into a doughnut shop, we smell the doughnuts, THEN the coffee, THEN the lady's perfume, etc. A dog smells the doughnuts, coffee, and perfume all at once. They are trained to recognize one particular smell (decomp for cadaver dogs and scent off of clothing or personal items for tracking dog). They "indicate" by barking, sitting, laying down, or even pawing and looking at the handler. Their reward is the toy or treat or whatever that they get for indicating properly. They need to be worked on a regular basis and "practiced" with so that scent stays fresh in their minds.

Yes, it is very likely and highly probable that they hit on the spots in the backyard for a reason. Gas cans is and sounds like a very good reason the decomp smell would be there. Laying the body down (even in a garbage bag) would also be a reason. Dogs can smell the plastic bag AND the decomp at the same time. There is NOTHING that a dog cannot smell through except a solid metal item. This is why drug traffickers can't hide it in foil, hot sauce, or anything else. This is why dogs hit on drug money (particles of drugs on the money).

The reason they wouldn't have dug - the dogs would have gone practically berserk if the smell was that strong. If they only indicated it probably means that they only smelled a small amount. A buried body would have gotten an extremely strong indication and a hysterical to play dog!! Any more questions? Does that cover it glad I could help!

 

[PoppyH]

I wonder if they had the dogs smell the gas cans to see if there was decomp on them?? You know, when they came took the cans into evidence?? Hmmmm, Just thinking

 

[kajohn]

From: http://www.k9forensic.org/faq.html has information on Cadaver dogs. I thought I had heard before that Cadaver dogs can be trained for different types of scent trails. Some trained to catch the scent on the ground, some trained to catch the scent in the air, some trained to find the scent underwater.

Personally I think the dog that made the hit in their backyard was correct.
Dogs don't lie!

 

[supergirl]

:blowkiss:
Helped me understand alot better, thanks for the easy and straightforward explanaton. You rock.

I used to live in Chuluota and was engaged for 5 years to a guy who trained dogs for police departments. I helped him train attack dogs, cadaver dogs, drug dogs, tracking dogs - you get the picture. These dogs can hit on the scent of decomposition that is very old. Even microscopic cells that are decomposing long after the fact give off those gasses that they smell.

A dog's nose can smell multiple things at once. You or I walk into a doughnut shop, we smell the doughnuts, THEN the coffee, THEN the lady's perfume, etc. A dog smells the doughnuts, coffee, and perfume all at once. They are trained to recognize one particular smell (decomp for cadaver dogs and scent off of clothing or personal items for tracking dog). They "indicate" by barking, sitting, laying down, or even pawing and looking at the handler. Their reward is the toy or treat or whatever that they get for indicating properly. They need to be worked on a regular basis and "practiced" with so that scent stays fresh in their minds.

Yes, it is very likely and highly probable that they hit on the spots in the backyard for a reason. Gas cans is and sounds like a very good reason the decomp smell would be there. Laying the body down (even in a garbage bag) would also be a reason. Dogs can smell the plastic bag AND the decomp at the same time. There is NOTHING that a dog cannot smell through except a solid metal item. This is why drug traffickers can't hide it in foil, hot sauce, or anything else. This is why dogs hit on drug money (particles of drugs on the money).

The reason they wouldn't have dug - the dogs would have gone practically berserk if the smell was that strong. If they only indicated it probably means that they only smelled a small amount. A buried body would have gotten an extremely strong indication and a hysterical to play dog!! Any more questions? Does that cover it glad I could help!

 

[Ginny]

Any more questions? Does that cover it glad I could help!

Personally I think the dog that made the hit in their backyard was correct.
Dogs don't lie!

Thank you, Cocoamom! You were very informative and easy to understand.

ITA, Kajohn! Dogs don't lie and I'm not disputing there was a legitimate hit in the yard, I was just wondering if it was possible that Caylee's body wasn't physically there but maybe something that was on or close to her body could have been placed in the yard in an attempt to air or clean out the car. Maybe CA put the smelly pants back there before tossing them in the washer but its very doubtful.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around Casey murdering Caylee and it is unimaginable for me to think that she actually moved Caylee's body around before finally disposing of it.

Considering I catch the spiders in my house and relocate them outside as opposed to killing them, I will never be able to fully understand Casey's mechanics and how she could bring herself to murder her child.

 

[justbetweenus]

I used to live in Chuluota and was engaged for 5 years to a guy who trained dogs for police departments. I helped him train attack dogs, cadaver dogs, drug dogs, tracking dogs - you get the picture. These dogs can hit on the scent of decomposition that is very old. Even microscopic cells that are decomposing long after the fact give off those gasses that they smell.

A dog's nose can smell multiple things at once. You or I walk into a doughnut shop, we smell the doughnuts, THEN the coffee, THEN the lady's perfume, etc. A dog smells the doughnuts, coffee, and perfume all at once. They are trained to recognize one particular smell (decomp for cadaver dogs and scent off of clothing or personal items for tracking dog). They "indicate" by barking, sitting, laying down, or even pawing and looking at the handler. Their reward is the toy or treat or whatever that they get for indicating properly. They need to be worked on a regular basis and "practiced" with so that scent stays fresh in their minds.

Yes, it is very likely and highly probable that they hit on the spots in the backyard for a reason. Gas cans is and sounds like a very good reason the decomp smell would be there. Laying the body down (even in a garbage bag) would also be a reason. Dogs can smell the plastic bag AND the decomp at the same time. There is NOTHING that a dog cannot smell through except a solid metal item. This is why drug traffickers can't hide it in foil, hot sauce, or anything else. This is why dogs hit on drug money (particles of drugs on the money).

The reason they wouldn't have dug - the dogs would have gone practically berserk if the smell was that strong. If they only indicated it probably means that they only smelled a small amount. A buried body would have gotten an extremely strong indication and a hysterical to play dog!! Any more questions? Does that cover it glad I could help!

Thank-you for your very informative post cocomom. Could you please explain exactly what a dog does when they are said to be inconsistent. Like would that mean they hit on an area, but perhaps not a second time?

 

[Pollywog]

I think KC killed her in a rage the night she left after the big fight. Maybe Caylee did not want to go with KC and was whining or whatever, maybe asking for CA. This would have surely set KC off more than she was. Once she harmed her, then she just did not know what to do with the body and that is why she drove around with it until she could not stand the smell anymore. I think the body was in the trunk the day GA asked to get the cans and KC went off on him. Her reaction would have made me look in the trunk I am afraid.

Maybe the smell in the back yard was on something that had come in contact with the body at some point. I had a hard time even imagining KC would have killed her daughter, but now after hearing her phone calls and seeing the way she is, no doubt in my mind that she did.

 

[Girlrilla]

Early on there was a video where someone interviewed a cadaver dog trainer. I think it might have been Greta. Anyway, the trainer did a demo and what she used was a piece of cloth that had been with a dead body. She hid it under a pillow on a couch and the dog "alerted" on the pillow. So I think you have a good question, I certainly think that could be a possibility that an item was in the back yard instead of Caylee herself.

 

[cocoamom]

Thank-you for your very informative post cocomom. Could you please explain exactly what a dog does when they are said to be inconsistent. Like would that mean they hit on an area, but perhaps not a second time?

OK, as far as the gas cans - yes. Anything that could have any decomposing cells on it that are (yuck) rotting. The decomposing cells give off that gas that the dogs are trained on. We actually got real pieces of cadaver - legally through Tallahassee of course - medical science donated cadavers - to work with. We would put them in a test tube (tiny tiny piece like pinky nail size that was just flat skin), cork it up and bury it - deep! The could find it every time - my job was moving it without anyone knowing where I put it. It was amazing to watch. Clothes with the "smell", gas cans, even people's feet that have walked through the actual stuff and tracked it. Wonder if they hit inside the house anywhere? Actually laundry detergent does wonders for killing this scent.

As far as false hits - if a handler is lazy and doesn't work the dog and make them live up to their potential every time they practice, the dog gets lazy too. Dogs are smart. "If I bark and sit, I get to play with my toy and get lots of pets". They all try it during training. They don't get disciplined in anyway, just ignored and no reward. Usually they figure out it won't work but if it worked even once for them in training, they might try it if they are hot, thirsty, lazy or just not into it. I seriously doubt this with the LE/PD. They pay these handlers to work these dogs routinely - done on the clock even. The dogs can sense the excitement and apprehension and know this is serious business. They usually work better in an actual search than in training! They love it - this is what they love to do and live to do! False hits do happen but a second dog verifying should shut up that argument quickly. LE uses a second dog on really important cases too so that the "false hit" defense has no oomph behind it...

Sorry so long - trying to get the whole info out there..

 

[cocoamom]

PS Water search dogs are trained the same way - on land. The ones that seem to be more sensitive to the smell can be used on boats. What they sniff for is that all - telling decomp "gas" that actually rises through the water in miniature bubbles - very strong for a dog's nose because it tends to be all in one area. Once the dog smells it search teams are deployed in a circumference because even still lakes have a sort of current/tide and the scent could have drifted.

 

[crete110]

I think KC killed her in a rage the night she left after the big fight. Maybe Caylee did not want to go with KC and was whining or whatever, maybe asking for CA. This would have surely set KC off more than she was. Once she harmed her, then she just did not know what to do with the body and that is why she drove around with it until she could not stand the smell anymore. I think the body was in the trunk the day GA asked to get the cans and KC went off on him. Her reaction would have made me look in the trunk I am afraid.

Maybe the smell in the back yard was on something that had come in contact with the body at some point. I had a hard time even imagining KC would have killed her daughter, but now after hearing her phone calls and seeing the way she is, no doubt in my mind that she did.

I think you are dead on.

 

[Ginny]

I think KC killed her in a rage the night she left after the big fight.

I think Casey planned Caylee's murder. That's the only way I can explain the searches for chloroform and the missing children websites.

 

[MOMto5]

I agree completely. It was always my belief that Caylee's body had been laid momentarily on the ground in the back yard, which caused the cadaver dogs to alert. Before the chloroform results were made public, I believed that she probably drowned and perhaps Casey had laid her there after pulling her from the water and hopefully attempting to revive her. Though I no longer believe this to be the case, I still believe she was laid in the yard at some point.

 

[Leila]

At the bond hearing, the dog handler for the OCSO stated that his dog hit on three different locations in the Anthony backyard. He said that another cadaver dog was brought in from another dept., and that dog handler was not told of the hits made by the first dog. The second dog hit on the same exact three locations.

I think two different dogs, independent of each other, hitting on the same three locations indicates that the body had to have been in the Anthony backyard at some point.