Cadaver Dogs, Search Dogs, K9 Units

[Friptzap]

That sounds pretty good. I have one question though.

The 16th-you say death. I also think this is when she died. But when? We know she was at blockbuster with TonE picking out death movies. Did she die in the middle of the night or in the am? Had she already been back to the A's to bury her or was she still in trunk?

I think mid afternoon, right after George left for work, I believe she returned home. What else was she going to do? Go to work? I think her MO was to come home ALL the time after they both left for work. EVEN George said SHE HAD BOYFRIENDS over all the time apparently after they left for work. It is right there in his FBI interview! MO MO MO MO MO sigh...

Modus Operandi ! She is certainly one VERY predictable woman. she thinks she is invisible and nobody can touch her, but what she fails to understand is she is meerly see through, and we will find her out!

I take you back to her ping maps, very predictable person, they all look very similar, she runs the same roads all the time she goes tot he same places all the time there was nothing out of the ordinary, so the body must be somewhere she normally travels. Someplace on her regular route. Of course there is an off chance this one time she went someplace different, but I will not hold my breath! IF it is not someplace she always went it is at the very least on her route!

 

[treeseeker]

My understanding is that the LIBS gave us 2.6 days post-mortem index. The LIBS is separate from the air analysis, and was performed directly on the carpet. It gave 2.6 days based on avg. FL temps, which needed further calibration per actual temps during the week in question. Bev, a fellow poster, thought maybe 4-5 days might be correct based on the actual temps.

LIBS begins pg 24 of 34 of the FBI report. I don't have a link, because I downloaded it.

 

[Friptzap]

The way I interpret it is this...

The body exudes certain gasses as decomp progresses.

Day one you will have WWW and tests will show WWW.
Day one.5 you will have *advertiser censored* and tests will show *advertiser censored*.
Day two you will have YYY and tests will show YYY.
Day two.6 you will have ZZZ and tests will show ZZZ.

The odor samples taken from the vehicle indicated the gasses and odor of a body that had been deceased for 2.6 days.

So, when the body was in the car it had been deceased and decomposing for 2.6 days.

Exactly, and it could not have been in there much longer or they would have found "other" gasses showing a body with longer decomposition.

 

[songline]

I have always wondered WHY they put a new filter pump on the pool right after her death. Pumps last years and all of a sudden Lee orders one and replaces theirs. I wondered if the sand in the pump was contaminated with decomp.

Because IMO George is protecting Casey and a pump can have information stored in there.
IF by chance Caylee did die in the pool (doubt it) there can be something that was pullid in by the pump that can be examined.

 

[Coley]

I think mid afternoon, right after George left for work, I believe she returned home. What else was she going to do? Go to work? I think her MO was to come home ALL the time after they both left for work. EVEN George said SHE HAD BOYFRIENDS over all the time apparently after they left for work. It is right there in his FBI interview! MO MO MO MO MO sigh...

Modus Operandi ! She is certainly one VERY predictable woman. she thinks she is invisible and nobody can touch her, but what she fails to understand is she is meerly see through, and we will find her out!

I take you back to her ping maps, very predictable person, they all look very similar, she runs the same roads all the time she goes tot he same places all the time there was nothing out of the ordinary, so the body must be somewhere she normally travels. Someplace on her regular route. Of course there is an off chance this one time she went someplace different, but I will not hold my breath! IF it is not someplace she always went it is at the very least on her route!

Ok, I go back to my post on page 3:


Here is a interesting article about cadaver dogs.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...es-835047.html

Snip:
In 2000, freelance dog handler Mick Swindells and his Border collie Shep, a trained human cadaver dog, were called to a 15-acre field near Nottingham to help locate the suspected grave of a murder victim. Shep signalled in one spot and the surrounding area was quickly dug, but nothing was found. Later that day, police returned with an informant, who identified the grave. Shep had been out by a metre.

It transpired that, in digging the grave, the murderer had put his spade through a field drain, causing volatile compounds from the decomposing cadaver to enter the drain. About a metre downhill of the cadaver, the drain was broken, preventing those compounds from dispersing further. The drain had, in effect, separated the body from its scent, and Shep had signalled the dislodged source of that scent – the breakage in the drain.

~~So would the pool, in the backyard of the A's, been the seperation point of where the dog hit and where Caylee could be buried?

 

[Friptzap]

My understanding is that the LIBS gave us 2.6 days post-mortem index. The LIBS is separate from the air analysis, and was performed directly on the carpet. It gave 2.6 days based on avg. FL temps, which needed further calibration per actual temps during the week in question. Bev, a fellow poster, thought maybe 4-5 days might be correct based on the actual temps.

LIBS begins pg 24 of 34 of the FBI report. I don't have a link, because I downloaded it.

4-5 days may still fit. That means she was possibly still in the trunk on the 20th to the 21st.

So ping maps from the 18th through the 21st, I will have to research those again. I wish we could tie this down easier, why average the temps? we can get weather data and use the exact information no? wouldnt the FBI have done this?

So this still works in my opinion about the back yard and the dog hits. 18th could still be the day she removed the body. Ad this would still be why the dogs are picking up sent in the yard.

I honestly don't believe she would "wash" the cloths off outside before she washed the cloths off in the washer. She is a nurse she must know they wash the bedding of dead people all the time in hospitals without doing this first, why bother? The machines are in the garage where the car is allready stinking the hell outa the house, she may not have even noticed an odor from the cloths. (My nuty aunt would of course do this but for other reasons!) sigh... but that is different neurotic behavior all together! Casey and Caylee would have both been hosed off naked in the back yard every day when they came home because heaven knows where they have been outside the home!

 

[Friptzap]

Ok, I go back to my post on page 3:


Here is a interesting article about cadaver dogs.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...es-835047.html

Snip:
In 2000, freelance dog handler Mick Swindells and his Border collie Shep, a trained human cadaver dog, were called to a 15-acre field near Nottingham to help locate the suspected grave of a murder victim. Shep signalled in one spot and the surrounding area was quickly dug, but nothing was found. Later that day, police returned with an informant, who identified the grave. Shep had been out by a metre.

It transpired that, in digging the grave, the murderer had put his spade through a field drain, causing volatile compounds from the decomposing cadaver to enter the drain. About a metre downhill of the cadaver, the drain was broken, preventing those compounds from dispersing further. The drain had, in effect, separated the body from its scent, and Shep had signalled the dislodged source of that scent – the breakage in the drain.

~~So would the pool, in the backyard of the A's, been the seperation point of where the dog hit and where Caylee could be buried?

I am not 100% sure on this, if she died in the pool perhaps, but I do not think she ever made it into the pool. But again if she did make it in either before or after then perhaps yes.

If she was wet and the pool did not "rinse" all the bodily fluids from her then they would have dripped across the yard perhaps, if the pool did "rinse" them then there could be some disconnect. IF she died before she made it in the pool then the attempt to fake a drowning would be futile and she probably would never bothered with placing her in the pool. How would she know one way or another on the outcome of this? Most people today realize that a dead body will not take water into the lungs like would be found in a drowning victem.

I am trying to not guess at what Casey may or may not have knowlege of though because that makes you look at everything differently.

I am holding a quarter in my hand, is it in my right hand or my left hand? I am a right handed person. But I bat left handed while at the same time I golf right handed.

Either way your guess is 50/50, does any of that other information help you decide which hand I may have placed the quarter in? What if I added that I visited the french quarter back long before Katrina when everything was right in that storm ridden city? Still 50/50. Same way with evidence don't let her behaviors or "clues" or lies get in the way of your judgement. She is in deed predictable she is not the smartest pencil in the woodshed, yeah mixed metaphors ;-) She is just as her friend Amy described, a 13 year old child that got caught in a lie. Now step back and look for all the links to her lies. As I have always said ignore what she is telling you and listen to what she is saying.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

If I recall correctly the forensics report stated that the odor from the trunk was that of 2.6 day old decomp. Meaning the remains that left the odor was a body left for dead for 2.6 days and not that the remains where only in there for 2.6 days.

Unless I am mistaken they were very clear that the odor retrieved by forensics was from a deseased person that was dead no longer than 2.6 days. So that to me means that the remains could not have been left in the car from the 16th to the 27th or the decomp odor would be from a body that was 11 days since deceased.

Not necessarily..........try this scenario.......the body was exposed in the trunk or tire well up to 3 days, then placed in plastic in a sealed container. At that point there would be no more odor to measure in the trunk. It would stay at the 2.6-3 days.

I believe she used a chlorine bucket from the pool area. They seal air tight (because chlorine can't be exposed to water or it explodes) and it was something quick to grab. Many people keep empty chlorine buckets around for yard jobs (moving dirt etc.)

If she were stopped or someone looking in her trunk, it would not look suspicious since they had a pool. The problem she ran into was the prior decomp kept decomposing and the smell increased.

I now am wondering if she didn't move Caylee to AH's wrecked car which was taken to Tony's and covered until she could decide what to do with it.

 

[Coley]

Not necessarily..........try this scenario.......the body was exposed in the trunk or tire well up to 3 days, then placed in plastic in a sealed container. At that point there would be no more odor to measure in the trunk. It would stay at the 2.6-3 days.

I believe she used a chlorine bucket from the pool area. They seal air tight (because chlorine can't be exposed to water or it explodes) and it was something quick to grab. Many people keep empty chlorine buckets around for yard jobs (moving dirt etc.)

If she were stopped or someone looking in her trunk, it would not look suspicious since they had a pool. The problem she ran into was the prior decomp kept decomposing and the smell increased.

I now am wondering if she didn't move Caylee to AH's wrecked car which was taken to Tony's and covered until she could decide what to do with it.

When was something decided to do something with AH car? So when did the car get wrecked and moved to TonE?

 

[bessie]

Not necessarily..........try this scenario.......the body was exposed in the trunk or tire well up to 3 days, then placed in plastic in a sealed container. At that point there would be no more odor to measure in the trunk. It would stay at the 2.6-3 days.

I believe she used a chlorine bucket from the pool area. They seal air tight (because chlorine can't be exposed to water or it explodes) and it was something quick to grab. Many people keep empty chlorine buckets around for yard jobs (moving dirt etc.)

If she were stopped or someone looking in her trunk, it would not look suspicious since they had a pool. The problem she ran into was the prior decomp kept decomposing and the smell increased.

I now am wondering if she didn't move Caylee to AH's wrecked car which was taken to Tony's and covered until she could decide what to do with it.

But, Turbo, if the remaining matter continued to decompose, wouldn't the released compounds indicate a more advanced stage of maturation than the 2.6 days?

I like your theory, but I'm having a hard time with this part.

 

[JusticeorJustUs]

Ok, I go back to my post on page 3:


Here is a interesting article about cadaver dogs.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...es-835047.html

Snip:
In 2000, freelance dog handler Mick Swindells and his Border collie Shep, a trained human cadaver dog, were called to a 15-acre field near Nottingham to help locate the suspected grave of a murder victim. Shep signalled in one spot and the surrounding area was quickly dug, but nothing was found. Later that day, police returned with an informant, who identified the grave. Shep had been out by a metre.

It transpired that, in digging the grave, the murderer had put his spade through a field drain, causing volatile compounds from the decomposing cadaver to enter the drain. About a metre downhill of the cadaver, the drain was broken, preventing those compounds from dispersing further. The drain had, in effect, separated the body from its scent, and Shep had signalled the dislodged source of that scent – the breakage in the drain.

~~So would the pool, in the backyard of the A's, been the seperation point of where the dog hit and where Caylee could be buried?

Ok. I remember that study. I give zero credibility.

1. In the UK it is illegal to train on human cadaver. They use either pseudo or porcine.

2. Given #1 above, it's hard to tell what the dog indicated on.

3. Past personal experience with UK cadaver dogs and how unreliable they are will never allow me to believe any "study" unless it specifically states that the dogs were trained on cadaver.

A dog will alert or "hit" on what it's trained to hit on. The training aid. If I trained my dog on cooked liver with garlic, that is what he or she would hit on. If I trained my dog on dead animals (roadkill) that is what they would hit on. If I trained my dogs on a vanilla scented Glade candle, that is what they would hit on.

If trained on porcine or psuedo, they will hit on that. Not cadaver accurately. The study is flawed from the beginning.

Now, if you're asking if the dog hit was perhaps due to water pooling in that location from when the pump was changed...the answer is yes if the body was decomposing and in the pool. Decomp would have been in the water and drained from the filter when disconnected. If the drainage pooled by the pool the dogs would indicate.

The dog hit by the pool based on the separation theory doesn't explain hits in the area of the sandbox and the playhouse and not in the areas of the yard between those locations.

I don't believe Caylee was in the pool or even the backyard at all after death.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

But, Turbo, if the remaining matter continued to decompose, wouldn't the released compounds indicate a more advanced stage of maturation than the 2.6 days?

I like your theory, but I'm having a hard time with this part.

Good point............the alternative would have to be she tried to clean it up after she moved the body to the sealed container. I don't know if that would stop the process or not. I will have to ask someone more knowledgeable than I about that one.

Another thing could be she had her in a plastic bag and it leaked when she removed her from the trunk to the sealed container.

 

[JusticeorJustUs]

But, Turbo, if the remaining matter continued to decompose, wouldn't the released compounds indicate a more advanced stage of maturation than the 2.6 days?

I like your theory, but I'm having a hard time with this part.

Interesting.

I don't believe so.

If, as Turbo said she was placed in an airtight container then only the gasses at that rate and time of decomp would be present.

In other words, the gasses that are present later in the decomposition process wouldn't have been present at all.

Trunk carpet and lining won't "decompose" as a body would.

What was already expelled from the body and present on the trunk carpet and lining wouldn't have the content of the rest of the decomposing body to give a reading of more advanced decomposition. It would only show, as would the air, what was there at that time of decomposition. 2.6 days.

Interesting.

 

[Friptzap]

Not necessarily..........try this scenario.......the body was exposed in the trunk or tire well up to 3 days, then placed in plastic in a sealed container. At that point there would be no more odor to measure in the trunk. It would stay at the 2.6-3 days.

I believe she used a chlorine bucket from the pool area. They seal air tight (because chlorine can't be exposed to water or it explodes) and it was something quick to grab. Many people keep empty chlorine buckets around for yard jobs (moving dirt etc.)

If she were stopped or someone looking in her trunk, it would not look suspicious since they had a pool. The problem she ran into was the prior decomp kept decomposing and the smell increased.

I now am wondering if she didn't move Caylee to AH's wrecked car which was taken to Tony's and covered until she could decide what to do with it.

I fully can understand that, but while I don't think she is a genious by any stretch I honestly do not feel she would keep the body in her car for very long. and that bucket would not fit in the spare tire compartment. So george would have noticed the bucket on the 24th and he never mentioned a bucket. He also never mentioned a smell.

Look at her MO, she was always returning home after her parents were gone unless she was with friends or shopping. Nobody saw Cayelee after the 16th. This must have been the day she died. Why return home to put the body there if she died elswhere? I would think she would hide it somehwere else first before taking a chance on hiding it at home. So this is why I feel after George left the house she returned. This is where and when I feel Caylee died. Then she hid her as she felt comfortable being there allready and knowing they had left for work as ussual instead of guessing they may return one day while she was there on some later date(having been gone for sometime and not seeing any possible changes in their behavior)

Here and now is the best time to do something you know may get you in trouble, not waiting and guessing on aome other day. You would always be second guessing, are they home? will the be comming home? On a normal day of lounging you could fluff off getting caught, Yeah Mom Caylee was not feeling well today so I called in sick, or I had cramps today dad so I told my boss I would not be able to make it in. But not on a day you want to hide a body in the yard. So I would not think anyone would take the body away from the house first and return with it later, or if it happened elswhere I would not think someone would try and return and hide the body.

This all brings me back to her getting the house. She also could have intended to set them up? No mom I was never home, I was with Tony all day, Caylee was in her room I guess when you left what did you do? Leave the hosue with her there alone? But George saw her there in person leaving when he got up for work and perhaps blew this idea out of the water for her. Again I am trying to not focus on "Casey ideas" and trying to focus on evidence.

Backyard dog hits - Fact
Missing little girl - Fact
Decomp odor in the trunk - Fact
Stain in the trunk - Fact
Casey is known to return home after parents leave - Fact
Car Abandoned 27th - Fact
Casey looking for apartments with Tony - Fact
Casey Borrows Shovel - Fact
Casey Steals Gas somewere between 20th and 24th - Fact
Casey returns Cans 24th - Fact
George sees inside Trunk on 24th - Fact
George Tries to Chase Casey down - Fact ( hmm no pings that day on that route?) - Epass - where did she get on and off the 408?
George notices decomp smell in the car at the Wrecker yard - Fact
Cindy notices decomp smell in the car at the house - Fact
Dog hits on the car trunk - Fact
Casey steals money - Fact (for years it seems)
Caylee's father has not been revealed - Fact (this is important I guarentee)
Casey Borrows Amy's Car - Fact
Casey Borrows Tony's Car - Fact
Casey Borrows Cindy's Car - Fact
Casey hides out at the homes of several friends - Fact
Casey Lies to LE at every stop along the way - Fact
No nanny of Caylee's lives at Sawgrass - Fact (Amy was her nanny but not at that time and I do not believe she was living there then either - Dante was living there however)
ZFG looked at an apt. in the smae locale where Casey claimed her Nanny lived - Fact
Casey claimed to run out of gas often - Fact ( she stole tons of money but not enough to keep gas in her car?)
Casey was out partying during the time she claims her nanny had kidnapped her daughter - Fact

and so on, I really try to not introduce other items unless they are shown to be real evidence and nothing new has been revealed since, excpet for her behaviors that are now comming out in the interview tapes. And the pings and such we knew existed but never had to review. No bucket has been reported so far, a blue bin however has - collapsable - so I am sure whatever it is would leak, possible why there is a stain? Evidence will lead us to the body I am sure of this we just have not found it yet.

If she burned the body was there any reports of fires in central florida that were maybe reported that the fire dept may not have found? If there was a fire and or smoke most people report them anymore because of all the fires we have had. But this is only if she burned the body - we knoew she had stolen gas cans. On the day in question when she borrowed the car from Cindy what was her route? Do we have epass info? Cell pings are great but only work when she is on the phone and or the phone is on amd recieves a call/message.

Again the dog hits in the backyard and the 16th being the last day anyone saw Caylee alive make me feel confident to say that was the day and location of her death. 2.6 days out being the 18th leads me to believe she retrieved the body on the 18th and it was in the car for at least half a day, maybe a few days longer? because of florida temperatures? That would possible bring us to the 20th easy retrieving gas cans to burn the remains and possibly the car, she could have considered doing this on the 21st so as to not elude to what was really going on to Tony this makes sense. Or if you stick to 2.6 days then it was done on the 19th and the gas was maybe to return to set it on fire or to burn the car in a different locale. Or was she really out of gas? Then I throw the gas out and meerly look at the rest of the evidence. She does abandone the car on th 27th though claiming to once again recover it but before she can it is taken. (Amy buys her a gas can)

If not for the dogs hitting in the backyard I would say I have no idea but it seems to all fit together.

 

[JusticeorJustUs]

Sorry, Friptzap.

I don't believe she died at the Hopespring residence.

I believe she died in the trunk of the car. Not while at Hopespring at all.

I still believe that dog hits to decomp were a result of CA hosing off the clothing, water drainage and pooling, and where she hung the clothes to drip enough water (and decomp matter) off before washing in her washing machine.

 

[Friptzap]

Sorry, Friptzap.

I don't believe she died at the Hopespring residence.

I believe she died in the trunk of the car. Not while at Hopespring at all.

I still believe that dog hits to decomp were a result of CA hosing off the clothing, water drainage and pooling, and where she hung the clothes to drip enough water (and decomp matter) off before washing in her washing machine.

I do leave that option open, that could be the cause for the stain, but after 2.6 days the body could have been leaking fluids too.

If she died in the trunk, why return to the house? why else would the dogs have hit in the backyard? if she "rinsed" the cloths it would not have been all over the yard spread out like that, but if she died at the pool area, moved by the playhouse then buried in the dirt next to that area then the cadaver dog hits make very good sense. Why take a chance returning home if she died in the car?

She had been given her out with the accidental death issue, but she refused to cooperate, I believe she has a very good reason for this, well good from her perspective that is. She does not want the body found because we will be able to tell the cause of deeath with the remains. And she knows this will not cooberate accidental death.

I understand your reason about the trunk, but how do you go from there logically to the dog hits in the back yard? If the back yard was the place of death then they make perfect sense. I look there first then try and find fault with that logic then move on to the next theory but I cannot keep from believing it was the back yard. There is no logical reason to discredit this locale nor the 16th for the day. I was concerned when the decomp evidence came back, but even that fits.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Interesting.

I don't believe so.

If, as Turbo said she was placed in an airtight container then only the gasses at that rate and time of decomp would be present.

In other words, the gasses that are present later in the decomposition process wouldn't have been present at all.

Trunk carpet and lining won't "decompose" as a body would.

What was already expelled from the body and present on the trunk carpet and lining wouldn't have the content of the rest of the decomposing body to give a reading of more advanced decomposition. It would only show, as would the air, what was there at that time of decomposition. 2.6 days.

Interesting.

That is right...........I could not figure out where I went wrong there, because I know when you remove the body the decomp stops unless there is a body part left in the place.

You explained it well. The decomp left would still be producing larvae, but not decomposing from that point.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Sorry, Friptzap.

I don't believe she died at the Hopespring residence.

I believe she died in the trunk of the car. Not while at Hopespring at all.

I still believe that dog hits to decomp were a result of CA hosing off the clothing, water drainage and pooling, and where she hung the clothes to drip enough water (and decomp matter) off before washing in her washing machine.

Now this where we part ways on theories........I do believe at one time she was in that back yard. Not necessarily that she died there, but KC (or someone) tried to hide her there temporarily.

Being as anal and obsessive about cleanliness as Cindy is.........she would not have gone all over that back yard with dripping clothes. I am betting the clothes were disposed of and other ones given to LE. No one but her and KC knew which slacks were in the car and because I believe GA was on "script" with his sighting of them leaving the clothes description was intentionally given to match some in her closet.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Fiz said: I fully can understand that, but while I don't think she is a genious by any stretch I honestly do not feel she would keep the body in her car for very long. and that bucket would not fit in the spare tire compartment. So george would have noticed the bucket on the 24th and he never mentioned a bucket. He also never mentioned a smell.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

George did not see in the trunk the 24th according to him. She threw the "f" gas cans and closed the trunk............I am not sure that incident even happened because his "stated purpose" was to get some chocks to work on the other car, and those were never mentioned again.

The bucket would not have to fit in the tire well. Just be sitting there which could explain why KC would also not let him see in the trunk - he would question WHY she had a chlorine bucket from the pool in her trunk.

 

[bessie]

Interesting.

I don't believe so.

If, as Turbo said she was placed in an airtight container then only the gasses at that rate and time of decomp would be present.

In other words, the gasses that are present later in the decomposition process wouldn't have been present at all.

Trunk carpet and lining won't "decompose" as a body would.

What was already expelled from the body and present on the trunk carpet and lining wouldn't have the content of the rest of the decomposing body to give a reading of more advanced decomposition. It would only show, as would the air, what was there at that time of decomposition. 2.6 days.

Interesting.

Yep, you're right. After I posed my question to Turbo, I went back and read the forensic reports again. They concur with your explanation. Thanks.