Cadaver Dogs, Search Dogs, K9 Units

[JusticeorJustUs]

I do leave that option open, that could be the cause for the stain, but after 2.6 days the body could have been leaking fluids too.

If she died in the trunk, why return to the house? why else would the dogs have hit in the backyard? if she "rinsed" the cloths it would not have been all over the yard spread out like that, but if she died at the pool area, moved by the playhouse then buried in the dirt next to that area then the cadaver dog hits make very good sense. Why take a chance returning home if she died in the car?

She had been given her out with the accidental death issue, but she refused to cooperate, I believe she has a very good reason for this, well good from her perspective that is. She does not want the body found because we will be able to tell the cause of deeath with the remains. And she knows this will not cooberate accidental death.

I understand your reason about the trunk, but how do you go from there logically to the dog hits in the back yard? If the back yard was the place of death then they make perfect sense. I look there first then try and find fault with that logic then move on to the next theory but I cannot keep from believing it was the back yard. There is no logical reason to discredit this locale nor the 16th for the day. I was concerned when the decomp evidence came back, but even that fits.

After 2.6 days, in the trunk of a vehicle, in the Florida heat and humidity, the body would definitely been leaking fluids. Even in the cold it would. That would explain the "stain".

If she rinsed the clothing it very well could spread out to those locations the dogs "hit". When I rinse something off on my patio the water runs off and "pools" in one corner. The area that I used to rinse the item off stays wet and I often have to re-wash the area of the mud or whatever I hosed off. I hang items over the (now former garden) fence to allow them to drip most of the water off before collecting to put in the washing machine.

Hence, my theory of the dog hits in the backyard. CA didn't realize that a "search" would involve dogs trained in cadaver and not tracking dogs.

She hoses the clothes at point A. Perhaps by sandbox? First hit. Water runoff "pools" by the pool. Second hit. CA takes the clothes and hangs/drapes in the playhouse to drip dry. Water and decomp fall from clothes. Third hit. The dogs will track and hit at the point of strongest scent. That is apparently what they did. Good dog.

Why did KC go back to the house? Where was she to go? She lived there. So did Caylee. Newfound friends didn't give her keys to houses to shower, etc. She had to have somewhere to go. Going back home when Mom and Dad aren't there, if that's an option, beats sitting in the car or a park or anywhere else.

She's also sociopathic. She doesn't believe she's done anything wrong. No conscience. She believes her lies.

The logic of "from the trunk" comes from several things.

1. CA laundered the clothes. I believe that she hosed them down in the backyard before laundering. Hung to dry in playhouse. Must clean the car. Know that smell. Must clean that car. Maybe it'll go away. Clean.

2. KC made the comment, "They haven't even found her clothes yet." Now, while that statement was made after I formed my opinion I do believe that clothing in the trunk was permeated with decomp odor or matter, whether the body of the child was atop them while dead or the clothing was placed where the "stain" was I don't know. But clearly there was a reason for them to be hosed off first, then laundered.

3. Washing the clothing would be step one but no woman that I know of, including myself, would put clothing like that in a washer without first hosing it off. Ask my son. He has routinely hosed off clothing and boots in car-wash stalls after off-roading or hunting or doing anything that involves more dirt than normal laundry.

FWIW -- I believe Caylee died the night of the 16th/morning of the 17th. Explained more in another post on another thread.

I feel bad for the manhours that LE expended in that backyard. There was no body. Decomp yes, but no body.

That, I truly believe.

 

[Friptzap]

Fiz said: I fully can understand that, but while I don't think she is a genious by any stretch I honestly do not feel she would keep the body in her car for very long. and that bucket would not fit in the spare tire compartment. So george would have noticed the bucket on the 24th and he never mentioned a bucket. He also never mentioned a smell.
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George did not see in the trunk the 24th according to him. She threw the "f" gas cans and closed the trunk............I am not sure that incident even happened because his "stated purpose" was to get some chocks to work on the other car, and those were never mentioned again.

The bucket would not have to fit in the tire well. Just be sitting there which could explain why KC would also not let him see in the trunk - he would question WHY she had a chlorine bucket from the pool in her trunk.

I do recall the chock statement, however in his FBI interview he did mention seeing in the trunk and described the items he saw. The blue bin, bag of clothes and Casey handed him the cans and said "here are your f'ing gas cans" He did mention she beat him to the punch and got to the trunk first then closed it right away.

 

[Friptzap]

After 2.6 days, in the trunk of a vehicle, in the Florida heat and humidity, the body would definitely been leaking fluids. Even in the cold it would. That would explain the "stain".

If she rinsed the clothing it very well could spread out to those locations the dogs "hit". When I rinse something off on my patio the water runs off and "pools" in one corner. The area that I used to rinse the item off stays wet and I often have to re-wash the area of the mud or whatever I hosed off. I hang items over the (now former garden) fence to allow them to drip most of the water off before collecting to put in the washing machine.

Hence, my theory of the dog hits in the backyard. CA didn't realize that a "search" would involve dogs trained in cadaver and not tracking dogs.

She hoses the clothes at point A. Perhaps by sandbox? First hit. Water runoff "pools" by the pool. Second hit. CA takes the clothes and hangs/drapes in the playhouse to drip dry. Water and decomp fall from clothes. Third hit. The dogs will track and hit at the point of strongest scent. That is apparently what they did. Good dog.

Why did KC go back to the house? Where was she to go? She lived there. So did Caylee. Newfound friends didn't give her keys to houses to shower, etc. She had to have somewhere to go. Going back home when Mom and Dad aren't there, if that's an option, beats sitting in the car or a park or anywhere else.

She's also sociopathic. She doesn't believe she's done anything wrong. No conscience. She believes her lies.

The logic of "from the trunk" comes from several things.

1. CA laundered the clothes. I believe that she hosed them down in the backyard before laundering. Hung to dry in playhouse. Must clean the car. Know that smell. Must clean that car. Maybe it'll go away. Clean.

2. KC made the comment, "They haven't even found her clothes yet." Now, while that statement was made after I formed my opinion I do believe that clothing in the trunk was permeated with decomp odor or matter, whether the body of the child was atop them while dead or the clothing was placed where the "stain" was I don't know. But clearly there was a reason for them to be hosed off first, then laundered.

3. Washing the clothing would be step one but no woman that I know of, including myself, would put clothing like that in a washer without first hosing it off. Ask my son. He has routinely hosed off clothing and boots in car-wash stalls after off-roading or hunting or doing anything that involves more dirt than normal laundry.

FWIW -- I believe Caylee died the night of the 16th/morning of the 17th. Explained more in another post on another thread.

I feel bad for the manhours that LE expended in that backyard. There was no body. Decomp yes, but no body.

That, I truly believe.

Well anyone I know would have actually thrown them out if they smelled that bad. Any intelligent person would have waited for the police to collect them as evidence.

wait that means I do not know any intelligent people?

 

[Coley]

I fully can understand that, but while I don't think she is a genious by any stretch I honestly do not feel she would keep the body in her car for very long. and that bucket would not fit in the spare tire compartment. So george would have noticed the bucket on the 24th and he never mentioned a bucket. He also never mentioned a smell.

Look at her MO, she was always returning home after her parents were gone unless she was with friends or shopping. Nobody saw Cayelee after the 16th. This must have been the day she died. Why return home to put the body there if she died elswhere? I would think she would hide it somehwere else first before taking a chance on hiding it at home. So this is why I feel after George left the house she returned. This is where and when I feel Caylee died. Then she hid her as she felt comfortable being there allready and knowing they had left for work as ussual instead of guessing they may return one day while she was there on some later date(having been gone for sometime and not seeing any possible changes in their behavior)

Here and now is the best time to do something you know may get you in trouble, not waiting and guessing on aome other day. You would always be second guessing, are they home? will the be comming home? On a normal day of lounging you could fluff off getting caught, Yeah Mom Caylee was not feeling well today so I called in sick, or I had cramps today dad so I told my boss I would not be able to make it in. But not on a day you want to hide a body in the yard. So I would not think anyone would take the body away from the house first and return with it later, or if it happened elswhere I would not think someone would try and return and hide the body.

This all brings me back to her getting the house. She also could have intended to set them up? No mom I was never home, I was with Tony all day, Caylee was in her room I guess when you left what did you do? Leave the hosue with her there alone? But George saw her there in person leaving when he got up for work and perhaps blew this idea out of the water for her. Again I am trying to not focus on "Casey ideas" and trying to focus on evidence.

Backyard dog hits - Fact
Missing little girl - Fact
Decomp odor in the trunk - Fact
Stain in the trunk - Fact
Casey is known to return home after parents leave - Fact
Car Abandoned 27th - Fact
Casey looking for apartments with Tony - Fact
Casey Borrows Shovel - Fact
Casey Steals Gas somewere between 20th and 24th - Fact
Casey returns Cans 24th - Fact
George sees inside Trunk on 24th - Fact
George Tries to Chase Casey down - Fact ( hmm no pings that day on that route?) - Epass - where did she get on and off the 408?
George notices decomp smell in the car at the Wrecker yard - Fact
Cindy notices decomp smell in the car at the house - Fact
Dog hits on the car trunk - Fact
Casey steals money - Fact (for years it seems)
Caylee's father has not been revealed - Fact (this is important I guarentee)
Casey Borrows Amy's Car - Fact
Casey Borrows Tony's Car - Fact
Casey Borrows Cindy's Car - Fact
Casey hides out at the homes of several friends - Fact
Casey Lies to LE at every stop along the way - Fact
No nanny of Caylee's lives at Sawgrass - Fact (Amy was her nanny but not at that time and I do not believe she was living there then either - Dante was living there however)
ZFG looked at an apt. in the smae locale where Casey claimed her Nanny lived - Fact
Casey claimed to run out of gas often - Fact ( she stole tons of money but not enough to keep gas in her car?)
Casey was out partying during the time she claims her nanny had kidnapped her daughter - Fact

and so on, I really try to not introduce other items unless they are shown to be real evidence and nothing new has been revealed since, excpet for her behaviors that are now comming out in the interview tapes. And the pings and such we knew existed but never had to review. No bucket has been reported so far, a blue bin however has - collapsable - so I am sure whatever it is would leak, possible why there is a stain? Evidence will lead us to the body I am sure of this we just have not found it yet.

If she burned the body was there any reports of fires in central florida that were maybe reported that the fire dept may not have found? If there was a fire and or smoke most people report them anymore because of all the fires we have had. But this is only if she burned the body - we knoew she had stolen gas cans. On the day in question when she borrowed the car from Cindy what was her route? Do we have epass info? Cell pings are great but only work when she is on the phone and or the phone is on amd recieves a call/message.

Again the dog hits in the backyard and the 16th being the last day anyone saw Caylee alive make me feel confident to say that was the day and location of her death. 2.6 days out being the 18th leads me to believe she retrieved the body on the 18th and it was in the car for at least half a day, maybe a few days longer? because of florida temperatures? That would possible bring us to the 20th easy retrieving gas cans to burn the remains and possibly the car, she could have considered doing this on the 21st so as to not elude to what was really going on to Tony this makes sense. Or if you stick to 2.6 days then it was done on the 19th and the gas was maybe to return to set it on fire or to burn the car in a different locale. Or was she really out of gas? Then I throw the gas out and meerly look at the rest of the evidence. She does abandone the car on th 27th though claiming to once again recover it but before she can it is taken. (Amy buys her a gas can)

If not for the dogs hitting in the backyard I would say I have no idea but it seems to all fit together.

I'm not sure if this a fact but remember the rental car. Not only did she mention to someone she was going to rent one. In her phone the 2nd to last number stored was Enterprise. The last number stored was Yuri's. I could almost bet she rented one and Caylee was put into that car.

 

[JusticeorJustUs]

Now this where we part ways on theories........I do believe at one time she was in that back yard. Not necessarily that she died there, but KC (or someone) tried to hide her there temporarily.

Being as anal and obsessive about cleanliness as Cindy is.........she would not have gone all over that back yard with dripping clothes. I am betting the clothes were disposed of and other ones given to LE. No one but her and KC knew which slacks were in the car and because I believe GA was on "script" with his sighting of them leaving the clothes description was intentionally given to match some in her closet.

Hmm.....yes, anal about cleaning. I imagine, not having the best of incomes her and GA both, frugal as well. I can see her hosing the clothing off.

Carrying 2 year old clothing to another location wouldn't be much of a stretch. Easy enough. It's the location of the hosing, the pooling as a result of runoff and the concentration of the water/decomp matter in the playhouse and the previous two locations that gets me.

I believe CA does know the smell of decomp and didn't want to risk disposing of the clothing where the smell might be detected. Rather, she chose to try to clean them.

I don't believe that KC would have moved the body of little Caylee to the backyard from the trunk, buried her, dug her up, (although putting her body in an airtight container afterwards might have explained the airtight chlorine container) and disposed of her again. That just seems like too much work for her. That would require shovels on two different days.

Could be GA is lying about what was missing from the shed and why it was really broken into? Pause for thought.

Could be that GA and CA knew from the get-go and all thought they could get away with it.

If that's the case, all should be arrested and behind bars as accomplices.

 

[Friptzap]

I'm not sure if this a fact but remember the rental car. Not only did she mention to someone she was going to rent one. In her phone the 2nd to last number stored was Enterprise. The last number stored was Yuri's. I could almost bet she rented one and Caylee was put into that car.

She was supposed to rent one with Amy to go up to Jax to pick up Amy's car.

She did however on the 16th call Lexus, supposedly she was getting a new car! I have seen those calls on the ping charts!

 

[JusticeorJustUs]

Didn't want to edit again, but a separate thought.

TURBOTHINK ---

If what you think is true, and the body is in an airtight container...that would definitely limit the dogs if the container was buried with little Caylee's body in it.

Consider this.

She's placed little Caylee in one of those airtight containers. She's borrowed the shovel and dug a place to bury the bucket containing body. Wouldn't take much effort.

Covers the top with dirt to prevent the escape of "odor". Must be a pretty secure container. Gasses can cause the lid to pop off. Weakest point. Dirt on top might help weight it down. Many days have passed. It's possible.

Now, given that. Shovel never touches child. No DNA or decomp matter.

<<scratching head>>

How much research did this cow do?

 

[Coley]

Didn't want to edit again, but a separate thought.

TURBOTHINK ---

If what you think is true, and the body is in an airtight container...that would definitely limit the dogs if the container was buried with little Caylee's body in it.

Consider this.

She's placed little Caylee in one of those airtight containers. She's borrowed the shovel and dug a place to bury the bucket containing body. Wouldn't take much effort.

Covers the top with dirt to prevent the escape of "odor". Must be a pretty secure container. Gasses can cause the lid to pop off. Weakest point. Dirt on top might help weight it down. Many days have passed. It's possible.

Now, given that. Shovel never touches child. No DNA or decomp matter.

<<scratching head>>

How much research did this cow do?

I honestly don't think she was bright enough to do all of this. IMO she did something that didn't take much of an effort.

 

[JusticeorJustUs]

I honestly don't think she was bright enough to do all of this. IMO she did something that didn't take much of an effort.

She didn't need to be bright enough.

Google produces a lot she could have learned from. Look at the Chloro.

I don't see her expending much effort either, but I can see a shallow grave coontaining a little body or a container containing her body.

 

[ZubenElSchemali]

I'd have to question the complete validity of the cadaver dogs' accuracy after doing some research and can understand why the forensic experts have been brought onto the defense team.
http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/dogs/index.html
"A 2003 study at the University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa, tested the effectiveness of cadaver dogs (dogs trained to detect old and new remains) and their handlers at finding buried human remains. Keith Jacobi, Alanna Lasseter, and their colleagues, tested the abilities of four dog and handler teams to find ten fresh and skeletal human remains items buried between one and two feet deep. Five separate trials were conducted in warm and humid conditions and videotaped. The trials recorded:

Alerts: dog properly marked the site of remains and the handler recognized it.
Unrecognized alerts: an alert in which the dog located the human remains but the handler did not recognize the signal because it was not the alert the dog was trained to give.
Narrowed areas: dog and handler team identified the area in which remains were situated, but the handlers were unable to specify the location.
False alerts: dog and handler signaled remains where they were not present.
No alert: no signal was given by the dog and handler team that remains were present in the test area.

Overall, there were only two alerts correctly signaling the location of remains, four unrecognized alerts and six narrowed area signals, indicating possible communication problems between the dogs and their handlers. In addition, there were six false alerts and 22 no alerts, suggesting significant problems of detection by the teams."

..."In both studies, dogs were able to locate human remains but the overall reliability of individual dog and handler teams remains in question. In the Alberta study, the recovery percentage for one dog was 55% while another was 95%. The Alabama study showed a much larger number of false alerts and no alerts than correct alerts. Together, the studies show a definite variance in accuracy and reliability among dog and handler teams. Possible factors affecting dog and handler team ability could be weather, soil condition, training, and dog-handler communication. Given such findings and a lack of thorough studies, the Alabama team hopes to study scent detection dogs more extensively in the future..."

And another interesting article, http://blogs.discovery.com/criminal_report/2008/10/texas-equusea-1.html..."During the pond searches, we found a pair of rubber kitchen gloves discarded in a grassy area. We marked the find and brought in two cadaver sniffing dogs to examine them. The handler placed buckets, with air holes, over top of the gloves so that the dogs would not disturb any potential evidence. He then guided each dog around the buckets. Both dogs hit on the gloves, so the handler notified the sheriff's department. A deputy later came out and bagged the gloves for further examination.

GlovesWe were initially intrigued by the find; however when the dog handler later questioned the property owner, we learned that he had recently lost the gloves in the woods when he was disposing of spoiled deer meat. He said that he had been wearing gloves because he had a fresh cut on his hand.The find turned out to be a dead end; however it did serve to show the effectiveness of the cadaver dogs, who had alerted to the smell of blood that had been left inside the gloves as a result of the property owners hand injury."

This statement seems to show that Cindy A wasn't so far off in mentioning George's sweat and blood while working. All body fluids would decompose whether the person is dead or not. That's why I decided to do some searching for articles.

Connie

 

[magic-cat]

*snipped*
Bold mine

I fully can understand that, but while I don't think she is a genious by any stretch I honestly do not feel she would keep the body in her car for very long. and that bucket would not fit in the spare tire compartment. So george would have noticed the bucket on the 24th and he never mentioned a bucket. He also never mentioned a smell.
It is very possible that George is being less than honest about this incident, as he has actually now told three differing versions of this same tale...


Again I am trying to not focus on "Casey ideas" and trying to focus on evidence.

Backyard dog hits - Fact
Missing little girl - Fact
Decomp odor in the trunk - Fact
Stain in the trunk - Fact
Casey is known to return home after parents leave - Fact
Car Abandoned 27th - Fact
Casey looking for apartments with Tony - Fact
Casey Borrows Shovel - Fact
Casey Steals Gas somewere between 20th and 24th - Fact
Casey returns Cans 24th - Fact This is not a fact, as there are 3 versions of this story.
George sees inside Trunk on 24th - Fact This is surely not a fact, for the same reason...George tells 3 varying stories about this single incident.
George Tries to Chase Casey down - Fact ( hmm no pings that day on that route?) - Epass - where did she get on and off the 408?
George notices decomp smell in the car at the Wrecker yard - Fact
Cindy notices decomp smell in the car at the house - Fact Cindy actually noticed the smell at the yard, and according to George offered to drive the car due to his being "too upset".
Dog hits on the car trunk - Fact
Casey steals money - Fact (for years it seems)
Caylee's father has not been revealed - Fact (this is important I guarentee)
Casey Borrows Amy's Car - Fact
Casey Borrows Tony's Car - Fact
Casey Borrows Cindy's Car - Fact This also has not been established as a fact as there are several stories on this incident as well.
Casey hides out at the homes of several friends - Fact
Casey Lies to LE at every stop along the way - Fact
No nanny of Caylee's lives at Sawgrass - Fact (Amy was her nanny but not at that time and I do not believe she was living there then either - Dante was living there however)
ZFG looked at an apt. in the smae locale where Casey claimed her Nanny lived - Fact
Casey claimed to run out of gas often - Fact ( she stole tons of money but not enough to keep gas in her car?)
Casey was out partying during the time she claims her nanny had kidnapped her daughter - Fact

and so on, I really try to not introduce other items unless they are shown to be real evidence and nothing new has been revealed since, excpet for her behaviors that are now comming out in the interview tapes. And the pings and such we knew existed but never had to review. No bucket has been reported so far, a blue bin however has - collapsable - so I am sure whatever it is would leak, possible why there is a stain? Evidence will lead us to the body I am sure of this we just have not found it yet.


If not for the dogs hitting in the backyard I would say I have no idea but it seems to all fit together.

The facts are hard to establish in this case since the key witnesses do not stick to the same story. Each time there is a new detail or a different detail and it makes it difficult to sift the facts from the fiction...

 

[SuziQ]

Thanks to everyone for the 2.6 day input. I think you all are correct, depending on what scenario took place.

I go back and forth on the backyard. I don't think Caylee was in the backyard at all. But I do think the cadaver dog hits are from transference of some sort. I've been doing some closet and storeroom cleaning using 4x3 ft black vinyl contractor bags. They are very thick and I think even one, and definitely double bagging them. would be as effective as a container. The bags are conforming allowing Caylee to be put in the spare tire wheel well which is why no one saw her.

ETA: I think Caylee laid in the trunk for 3-5 days. When things started to get messy is when Casey put inside of something like I mentioned above. When her car broke down/ran out of gas, she was out of options. She either left Caylee there or put her in the Amscot dumpster.

 

[EricaG]

After reading this article about dogs sniffing out bones belonging to a person missing since 1978, you would think there would be more opportunity for dogs to go back in the woods/ blanchard etc. There were none when I searched with TES on November 9.

http://wbztv.com/local/rhode.island.mob.2.869097.html


ok, fine, merge this thread...

 

[passionflower]

After reading this article about dogs sniffing out bones belonging to a person missing since 1978, you would think there would be more opportunity for dogs to go back in the woods/ blanchard etc. There were none when I searched with TES on November 9.

http://wbztv.com/local/rhode.island.mob.2.869097.html


ok, fine, merge this thread...

that makes good sense........I believe in dog hits! Esp in the ants backyard!

 

[SilverHope]

My family trains both search and rescue dogs and cadaver dogs. They also used cadaver dogs in the A's backyard. I've never heard of a dog finding something so old. The air scent would be gone now for the dogs to find. If the weather is bad, line tracking won't be as effective.

 

[JBean]

bummp for EricaG

 

[EgyptNug]

After reading this article about dogs sniffing out bones belonging to a person missing since 1978, you would think there would be more opportunity for dogs to go back in the woods/ blanchard etc. There were none when I searched with TES on November 9.

http://wbztv.com/local/rhode.island.mob.2.869097.html


ok, fine, merge this thread...

My understanding is that there were only a few SAR or cadaver dogs, and they were sent out to spots on request. They did not go searching with the groups. I think the search dogs do better if they are not around a bunch of new people/smells, so maybe that had to do with it.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

I'd have to question the complete validity of the cadaver dogs' accuracy after doing some research and can understand why the forensic experts have been brought onto the defense team.
http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/dogs/index.html
Connie

I must have gone to the wrong web site.........here is what I found.

Canine Case Closed? July 15, 2004
by Evan Walker

The conviction of a renowned handler raises questions about the use of dogs in archaeology.

Michigan native Sandra Anderson is set to be sentenced on August 24 in Federal Court, Southern Division of the Eastern District of Michigan, for planting evidence at a crime scene and making false statements to authorities. A respected scent-detection dog trainer and handler, Anderson pled guilty earlier this year. Since the charges were filed last fall, the work of Anderson and her dog Eagle has been questioned.

I find this appalling for a handler to do anything like that. I don't even understand the purpose.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

http://wbztv.com/local/rhode.island.mob.2.869097.html

This article talks about "police dogs"..........that is entirely different from S/R dogs and cadaver dogs. The training is totally different. Not to say police dogs can't smell a cadaver, because some of them can and will, but they are not trained to alert on them and the handlers are trained to use the dogs for catching perps and sometime train them for drugs.

You are talking about apples and oranges here.........there is no relevance.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

My family trains both search and rescue dogs and cadaver dogs. They also used cadaver dogs in the A's backyard. I've never heard of a dog finding something so old. The air scent would be gone now for the dogs to find. If the weather is bad, line tracking won't be as effective.

The team I work with found a body buried almost 30 years under concrete. There is a scent, but the problem is after long periods of time, if the body is buried, the scent comes up through the line of the roots of trees and may be off center a bit.

ORNL has a device which is very useful in finding old Indian burial sites. Go to University of Tennessee Anthropology Department and read up on some of the new things they are doing.