Calling the friends over?

[Brefie]

Good point, Toltec. I lean towards John knowing nothing until a trip to the basement.

Here's the thing, you truly believe your child has been kidnapped, so you call your friends for help. Okay, what help can they be sitting on your sofa stroking your arm and making tea? Surely bodies are best used driving around looking for ANYTHING??

 

[4sure]

Not only that, but EVERYONE knew they had to leave early that morning to make their flight. Someone would have come looking for them.

if one of their friends DID find the body, THEY would most likely contaminate the scene AND they would have witnesses to say that they were nowhere near it.
That's why.

Interesting points SD.

Why do you think that someone would have come looking for them? Seems to me that all they have to do is call and say somethings wrong or someones sick and they will simply be a day late. Thereby affording themselves the time they so evidently wanted the ransome note to provide.

Also, a friend may contaminate a crime scene but a LE agent surly would not, and they took that chance as well.

 

[Jolynna]

I think the Ramseys called a lawyer BEFORE they called 911. I have no idea what they told him. Maybe, the kidnapping story?

I believe the reason for the RN and the warning not to call the police WAS to buy time and to have a logical reason for NOT calling the police immediately.(And give them time to dispose of the body elsewhere--as so many have speculated that the Ramseys would have done, if they were the perps)

But, I think the lawyer told them to call the police, so they did. (Pure speculation, but it is a reason for the RN and for the Ramseys not handing over their phone records)

And, as I said before it was a stupid scenario, totally unbelievable and straight out of an old detective movie. But, considering that the Ramseys never expected to be covering up a murder they blundered through as best they could.

Another reason for the Ramseys to have friends over would be because Patsy, always the drama queen, while being comforted would also be the star and the center of a lot of attention.

Whyever, Patsy called those people, her focus obviously was not on the welfare of her little girl.

NO parent would ever take the chance of spooking kidnappers who had threatened their child's life. Not while there was even the faintest of hopes of getting the child back.

NO parent who had ANY hope would invite people to tromp through their front door in front of possibly observing kidnappers. The greatest amount of narcisism (or to be kinder shock) would not be enough to overcome a parent's greater protectiveness of their baby.

 

[angelwngs]

I think the Ramseys called a lawyer BEFORE they called 911. I have no idea what they told him. Maybe, the kidnapping story?

I had never for a second considered this possibility! :clap: Brilliant!

I believe the reason for the RN and the warning not to call the police WAS to buy time and to have a logical reason for NOT calling the police immediately.(And give them time to dispose of the body elsewhere--as so many have speculated that the Ramseys would have done, if they were the perps)

But, I think the lawyer told them to call the police, so they did. (Pure speculation, but it is a reason for the RN and for the Ramseys not handing over their phone records)

What was done by LE in attempts to obtain their phone records? Did I read something about records being destroyed? If not, would LE not have sufficient evidence against the R's to order the records turned over? Is that why they were not??? If so, that is INSANE!

And, as I said before it was a stupid scenario, totally unbelievable and straight out of an old detective movie. But, considering that the Ramseys never expected to be covering up a murder they blundered through as best they could.

Another reason for the Ramseys to have friends over would be because Patsy, always the drama queen, while being comforted would also be the star and the center of a lot of attention.

If you don't believe it, just look at PR's 1996 Christmas letter about being famous even for a fleeting moment when she and a 'friend' were seen on national television with Al Roker on Good Morning America. (Probably the trip to NY when she purchased the size 12 Bloomies)

Whyever, Patsy called those people, her focus obviously was not on the welfare of her little girl.

The more fingerprints, DNA, and fibers the better if your intent is to mess up a crime scene. (And the more people around the more confusing a crime investigation becomes, and intern the more mistakes LE will inevitably make.)


NO parent would ever take the chance of spooking kidnappers who had threatened their child's life. Not while there was even the faintest of hopes of getting the child back.

No doubt.

NO parent who had ANY hope would invite people to tromp through their front door in front of possibly observing kidnappers. The greatest amount of narcisism (or to be kinder shock) would not be enough to overcome a parent's greater protectiveness of their baby.

BINGO.

 

[narlacat]

Good point, Toltec. I lean towards John knowing nothing until a trip to the basement.

Here's the thing, you truly believe your child has been kidnapped, so you call your friends for help. Okay, what help can they be sitting on your sofa stroking your arm and making tea? Surely bodies are best used driving around looking for ANYTHING??

I lean towards John not knowing until he read the note.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I lean towards John not knowing until he read the note.

I agree, NC. I think if John didn't already know, he HAD to have been tipped off when he saw that note that obviously looks like Patsy's writing and sounds like her style of speech. Sometimes I think he must have helped with the staging prior to finding the note as well, but I'm not sure.

 

[angelwngs]

I agree, NC. I think if John didn't already know, he HAD to have been tipped off when he saw that note that obviously looks like Patsy's writing and sounds like her style of speech. Sometimes I think he must have helped with the staging prior to finding the note as well, but I'm not sure.

I hate to quote anything from the NE, but in the interview the R's granted NE, it says that Patsy said she considered the question of whether John molested JBR, but that Nedra slept in JBR's room in the other single bed, (edited to add- during her cancer treatment),so Patsy felt that he couldn't have 'done it'.

I thought that comment was so odd, but if true, in her head, she admittedly questioned his faithfulness. I wonder when those thoughts first entered her mind. I wonder if it could have been before the 25th and if the 'green eyed monster of jealousy' caused her to 'flip out' doing her own warped 'examinations' of her daughter... Whether Patsy liked it or not, she could only blame herself for creating such a provocative image from the child her little innocent daughter once was. (<last sentence edited to make sense!)

Also, John is quoted as having dreams about JBR after she was killed. In them he says 'she was always 2 or 3, not six as when she died'. He siad these dreams were so wonderful. I wonder if he dreamed of her as being 2 or 3 because that was before Patsy forever altered JBR's innocent image.

Patsy's dreams weren't reported to have JBR in them at all. They were of herself walking through the alleyways behing their Boulder home wanting to tell people that someone was murdering "people" in Boulder. (Not JonBenet, "people"...) The other dream she reported having was sitting high looking over the city of Boulder and wondering in which house the murderer lived.

I think its so odd that she never reported dreaming of JonBenet, instead she said she dreamed of herself and her inner tourmoil.

If this interview is truth, it seems as if they were both dissociating themselves from their 6 year old daughter, JonBenet.

 

[Solace]

I hate to quote anything from the NE, but in the interview the R's granted NE, it says that Patsy said she considered the question of whether John molested JBR, but that Nedra slept in JBR's room in the other single bed so Patsy felt that he couldn't have 'done it'.

I thought that comment was so odd, but if true, in her head, she admittedly questioned his faithfulness. I wonder when those thoughts first entered her mind. I wonder if it could have been before the 25th and if the 'green eyed monster of jealousy' caused her to 'flip out' doing her own warped 'examinations' of her daughter... Whether Patsy liked it or not, she could only blame herself for creating such a provocative image with from who her little innocent daughter once was.

Also, John is quoted as having dreams about JBR after she was killed. In them he says 'she was always 2 or 3, not six as when she died'. He siad these dreams were so wonderful. I wonder if he dreamed of her as being 2 or 3 because that was before Patsy forever altered JBR's innocent image.

Patsy's dreams weren't reported to have JBR in them at all. They were of herself walking through the alleyways behing their Boulder home wanting to tell people that someone was murdering "people" in Boulder. (Not JonBenet, "people"...) The other dream she reported having was sitting high looking over the city of Boulder and wondering in which house the murderer lived.

I think its so odd that she never reported dreaming of JonBenet, instead she said she dreamed of herself and her inner tourmoil.

If this interview is truth, it seems as if they were both dissociating themselves from their 6 year old daughter, JonBenet.

Hi Angelwings,

Do you knowwhere I could find the NE interview you are speaking of. Very interested.

 

[angelwngs]

Hi Angelwings,

Do you knowwhere I could find the NE interview you are speaking of. Very interested.

http://www.acandyrose.com/04032001enquirer.htm

Hi Solace,

It is about mid-way down this page of the interview.

 

[BBB167893]

"Why do you think that someone would have come looking for them?"

Like I said: everyone knew.

"Seems to me that all they have to do is call and say somethings wrong or someones sick and they will simply be a day late. Thereby affording themselves the time they so evidently wanted the ransom note to provide."

That would have tipped their hand, 4sure. If they had called someone, who's to say what that person would have done or said later on?

 

[sandraladeda]

I lean towards John not knowing until he read the note.

I have pondered this posssibility, but if this is the case, then John is absolutely not involved in the death and cover up. In this case, the first John hears is "JB is missing and there's a note from kidnappers!". If he looks at the note and his BS meter goes off ("waitasec! This is Patsy's handwriting! This has Patsy written all over it!") don't you think he would say "come on Patsy, this is a joke, right? Where is she?" I find it hard to believe that he would think "Hmmm. I think Patsy wrote this. But okay, I'll go along with calling the police, see where this leads..."
imho

 

[Solace]

http://www.acandyrose.com/04032001enquirer.htm

Hi Solace,

It is about mid-way down this page of the interview.

Thanks so much. If you have any more gems, please let us know. This is great.

 

[angelwngs]

I have pondered this posssibility, but if this is the case, then John is absolutely not involved in the death and cover up. In this case, the first John hears is "JB is missing and there's a note from kidnappers!". If he looks at the note and his BS meter goes off ("waitasec! This is Patsy's handwriting! This has Patsy written all over it!") don't you think he would say "come on Patsy, this is a joke, right? Where is she?" I find it hard to believe that he would think "Hmmm. I think Patsy wrote this. But okay, I'll go along with calling the police, see where this leads..."
imho

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Good point, but is it possible that his "BS meter" didn't go off enough to indicate that it was Patsy's writing? I think, initially at least, it may have just gone off enough to indicate the note itself was "childish". In the "shock of the moment", if the thought ever entered his brain that Patsy could have constructed the note, I imagine he pushed that thought out and went into "denial overdrive", just as many people often do when they are told by someone that their spouse is having an unsuspected affair. After the call did not come on the morning of the 26th, I think that just maybe the "BS Meter" began going into overdrive, and this is why he couldn't be in the same room with Patsy much less show her comfort. After he found the body, maybe the rage LA saw was combined with the fury of a parent who has found their murdered daughter, combined with that of a father who suspects someone very close to him. If he was molesting JBR or if he knew that BR had carried "playing doctor too far", it would make sense that all of these "lightbulb moments" would cause him to immediately "lawyer-up" and immediately plan and execute an excape to Atlanta to get to the bottom of the whole matter and to set all his 'ducks in a row' to prevent his entire life from being destroyed.

John's behavior seemed to be indicative of at least one of these four things and maybe a combination of two or three of the following:

1) A terribly nervous father who was totally innocent of involvement in the murder/homicide/cover-up.

2) A confused father who highly suspected that the note was not ligitimate and after he discovered the body. He strongly felt that the entire scenerio was created by someone close to him.

3) A guilty father who could not face/support his accomplice.

4) A father who was guilty of prior abuse of JBR or at the very least guilty of earlier helping to cover-up that his son had crossed the line when 'playing doctor'.


Possibly 1 and 2 or 1,2, and 4.

Or maybe it was just 3............... but because of ALL ARROWS pointing to Patsy and much fewer pointing to John, I tend to shy away from number 3.

 

[4sure]

"Why do you think that someone would have come looking for them?"

Like I said: everyone knew.

"Seems to me that all they have to do is call and say somethings wrong or someones sick and they will simply be a day late. Thereby affording themselves the time they so evidently wanted the ransom note to provide."

That would have tipped their hand, 4sure. If they had called someone, who's to say what that person would have done or said later on?

I'm sorry SD I must be a little dense and I sure would not like to belabor the point but I don't understand your answers.

Everyone knew what? They should be going away but they decide to stay home for another day. This is problem why?

How are they tipping their hand SD? What do you think someone like "the pilot" Anceletta (im sure I butchered the spelling of his name) or their kids headed for Michigan would do or say later on.
They could always simply say the were following the instructions in the ransome note.

Why write a ransome note with such incredible detail if you have no intention of moving the body from the home and following the instructions to your own benefit?

Why create a cover up and then ignore it?

 

[Jolynna]

Why write a ransome note with such incredible detail if you have no intention of moving the body from the home and following the instructions to your own benefit?

I believe that the initial purpose of the RN WAS to buy some time to move the body away from the house. I think the Ramseys planned to do exactly what you just said a smart perp would do.

I do not think it was accidental that the ransom note was worded to give the Ramseys an excuse not to call the police right away.

But, in my opinion, as the next day dawned, the prospect of moving the body didn't seem so simple. Who knew what neighbor might be peering out of a window?

A thrill seeking intruder who had just brazenly spent hours molesting and killing a child, changing her underwear, feeding her pineapple and composing a 3 page ransom note in a house full of people would be challenged not daunted by the prospect of sneaking JB's body out a side door. An intruder that had been all through the house gathering up writing and garroting equipment and finding the $118,000 amount on a pay stub would have certainly checked to see the security alarm set on OFF.

A guilt ridden, remorseful parent would feel as if the eyes of the world were upon him/her. As the parents didn't plan ahead, I would think there would be confusion and disagreement on what to do next. The whole thing, to me, seems more blundered through, than thought out.

I also think that there is a very good possibility that while weighing their options, the Ramseys called one of their lawyers and ran the kidnapping story past him. And then followed the lawyer's advice to call the police.

 

[JMO8778]

I've been inclined to believe that John and Patsy knew exactly what they were doing the morning of December 26th when they called a hoard of people over. It, IMO, was all part of the staging. The more people in the house, the more contaminated the crime scene.

Maybe that was the start of them throwing all their friends under the bus, too.Esp. since JB's body was found in the house.
IOW, "Look at all the prints left here! All of our friends were here, must have been one of them!"

 

[JMO8778]

Maybe, maybe, (but I seriously doubt it) I would call one set of very very close friends. I would not call two different homes and ask them over. At some point there were two couples and their Reverend. Since they really believed that JB was kidnapped, why didn't they believe that the kidnappers would kill her. They believe one part of the note and not another part.

They invited these people because Patsy knew that she was already dead.

But this leads to another question? Do you (anyone here) think that John knew before he went to the basement the first time? Orrrrrrrr, do you think he was aware before anyone was called that JB was dead?

Since JR's shirt fibers were found on JB,I think he would have had to have known b/f then.As well as his voice on the 911 call doesn't ring true of someone who just found a RN stating his daughter is gone.Add to that the fact he took a shower and had changed clothes, while PR had on the same ones from the night b/f.
I think the cell phone records disappeared b/c it was used to call lawyers for advice prior to calling 911 on the reg. phone.

 

[Jolynna]

I think the cell phone records disappeared b/c it was used to call lawyers for advice prior to calling 911 on the reg. phone.

Me too.

 

[Toltec]

In their book, DOI, Patsyanswers the door to find Officer French there and then proceeds to tell him that JonBenet had been kidnapped and there was a ransom note and they were trying to get the money together.

I take it to mean Rod Westmoreland was called before the police?

 

[Veronica10]

I can not help but think Patsy wrote that note without John's input. That note just "screams" Patsy. If John had been involved in the writing of the ransom note it would have been unemotional, short, and succinct. My gut tells me he would not have approved of the ransome note as written. I think the "BS" theory rings true...I think that is why John was so distant that morning...he suspected Patsy. If he had been in on it the whole time, I think his "acting" would have been better. I think he retreated into his own mind that morning reviewing everything that was going on.

I believe he did find the body approx. 10 am or so. He then pieced everything together and went ahead with the cover-up. If John and Patsy were on the same page that morning...they would have huddled close together. John couldn't even be in the same room with her. One thing he is not is a dumb man. I think he is very intelligent and savvy in many ways, unlike Patsy who just thought she was far more intelligent than the average person.
Sorry for the rambling...I am new and have so many thoughts. The recent happenings made me discover this forum. You are all so insightful. It has been remarkable to read through all the posts.