Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

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I tend to agree that there MUST be some reason that LE became so fixated on the acreage. They must have some type of evidence that caused them to focus on that area and the surrounding possibilities. Could be something they found on his computer, truck or even at the acreage itself. They broadened their scope to include the landfills but that is standard protocol. Something has them convinced that the remains are close by because they never really focused that amount of effort elsewhere.

I wonder about the extreme focus of the acreage also. There was the other search in the vicinity of the old Cam Clark Ford dealership building in Airdrie, but I don't think anything was found (that we know of). There has to be *something*, which makes me think of the evidence they DO have. I now wonder if there's DNA blood evidence (KL/AL/NO) in the truck, so logically, LE would think: from house to truck, from truck to…..(landfill, empty building, acreage, etc.) They must be following the evidence trail to connect the dots, but don't know where the dots ends yet.
 
I tend to agree that there MUST be some reason that LE became so fixated on the acreage. They must have some type of evidence that caused them to focus on that area and the surrounding possibilities. Could be something they found on his computer, truck or even at the acreage itself. They broadened their scope to include the landfills but that is standard protocol. Something has them convinced that the remains are close by because they never really focused that amount of effort elsewhere.

Wonder if LE has focused on DG's home because of the Robert Pickton case? Maybe because it would be too obvious a place to look in DG's mind, LE thought perhaps he had used reversed-psychology and the victims were at the acreage? Maybe because it looks as if the victims were removed quickly from their home, and the subsequent sightings of DG at the acreage were fairly soon after, IMO, LE would deduce that the victims couldn't be that far...there's a fair amount of space at the acreage...lots of room to bury things in, there's a burning pit, there are sloughs around....really, where else might DG have taken them so quickly? Maybe it's just because it makes the most sense, besides leaving them at the Liknes home? Or, it could be that they have good reason to believe that's where they are...
 
I wonder about the extreme focus of the acreage also. There was the other search in the vicinity of the old Cam Clark Ford dealership building in Airdrie, but I don't think anything was found (that we know of). There has to be *something*, which makes me think of the evidence they DO have. I now wonder if there's DNA blood evidence (KL/AL/NO) in the truck, so logically, LE would think: from house to truck, from truck to…..(landfill, empty building, acreage, etc.) They must be following something to connect the dots, but don't know where the dots ends yet.

....maybe they're looking for 'dots' to connect with respect to the most logical trajectory of the crime...the logical follow-through for the suspect to have taken...
 
I don't remember reading this before! This puts a very different spin on his earlier crimes. We have seen many articles referring to DG as a meth cook and trafficker. It seems, if this article is accurate, he had no finished product..."This weekend’s search is not the first time authorities have descended on the Garlands farm, nor is it the first time Douglas Garland has been caught using the ID of Matthew Kemper Hartley, who died in a car crash in 1980 at age 14.

In October 1992, investigators uncovered a drug lab hidden inside a shed on the property.

Although police found no finished product, the lab contained a large quantity of chemicals used to make illegal synthetic drugs like methamphetamine.

Police charged Douglas Garland, but he disappeared soon after and evaded authorities for seven years."

http://cached.newslookup.com/cached.php? ref_id=124&siteid=2116&id=7002931&t=1404788246&__federated=1

I remember this too, no finished product. I wonder if this was his first time or if he was seasoned and made it before? I still think after he was caught in BC and came back to Alberta he decided to no longer 'get his hands dirty' doing the labour work and focused on making paper trails 'legal' and got into transporting 'goods', might've been hard for him to give up the science though.
 
I love Drumheller (biased, I grew up there lol)! Do you think he'd do the drive with any evidence with him? I agree with the twisted irony part, I wonder where his chosen spot is...

I think the remains would have just been ashes and would have fit into an ice-cream bucket. I am crazy for thinking this but just can't move off that because of the twisted irony of it. I have only been to Drumheller once and LOVED it. I am long overdue for another visit.
 
....maybe they're looking for 'dots' to connect with respect to the most logical trajectory of the crime...the logical follow-through for the suspect to have taken...

I also think DG has a private spot for something (not sure what). I can't see him having everything he wants while living in the presence of his parents at their home, he doesn't seem like that much of a simpleton living the simple life. I wonder if he has a trailer, storage unit, some place between Calgary and Airdrie for his own privacy. If so, I would think he took the victims there (probably deceased).
 
I think the remains would have just been ashes and would have fit into an ice-cream bucket. I am crazy for thinking this but just can't move off that because of the twisted irony of it. I have only been to Drumheller once and LOVED it. I am long overdue for another visit.

Hmmm....an Icecream bucket full? That would spread out over a driveway that long- anywhere for that matter
The slough- possibly, I'd be worried though that they might drift and settle around the edges
 
I wonder about the extreme focus of the acreage also. There was the other search in the vicinity of the old Cam Clark Ford dealership building in Airdrie, but I don't think anything was found (that we know of). There has to be *something*, which makes me think of the evidence they DO have. I now wonder if there's DNA blood evidence (KL/AL/NO) in the truck, so logically, LE would think: from house to truck, from truck to…..(landfill, empty building, acreage, etc.) They must be following the evidence trail to connect the dots, but don't know where the dots ends yet.
They must also be working with timeframes from security camera footage from highways and businesses along the way from the Liknes home.

I can't imagine anyone would want to drive around with human remains for any longer than necessary.
 
I also think DG has a private spot for something (not sure what). I can't see him having everything he wants while living in the presence of his parents at their home, he doesn't seem like that much of a simpleton living the simple life. I wonder if he has a trailer, storage unit, some place between Calgary and Airdrie for his own privacy. If so, I would think he took the victims there (probably deceased).

Hmmm...wonder what name he may of registered these things under...surely not MH or his own? Wonder if LE checks into such things that are connected to his parents names (not in anyway suggesting that they were involved...I doubt he would ask their permission to use their names)...and if all is true about DG, I doubt he would care if his parent's names were used to get what he wanted anyway....IMO the guy was running out of options...
 
"At the acreage, which belongs to the parents of Garland, flammable and dangerous chemicals have been found, police said.

"We don’t know if it’s chemicals that are part of a typical farm operation or chemicals that could be used for something else," Brookwell said.

"So, until we know what those chemicals are, we can’t say and it’s too early to speculate what those may be or what they be used for."
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/nathan-obrien-amber-alert-police-142846185.html

Wouldn't we love to know what all the chemicals were!
 
I also think DG has a private spot for something (not sure what). I can't see him having everything he wants while living in the presence of his parents at their home, he doesn't seem like that much of a simpleton living the simple life. I wonder if he has a trailer, storage unit, some place between Calgary and Airdrie for his own privacy. If so, I would think he took the victims there (probably deceased).

^^BBM

IIRC...there was earlier discussion about a storage place or something? *can't recall at the moment what it was... have to look for the post/article* in a town north of Airdrie that DG had.....Crossfield!! That was the town.....just need to find the story...

ETA: link referencing Crossfield:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...algary-30-June-2014-4&p=10715197#post10715197

In the photos as sillybilly noted...4th from the right bottom row....in the photo caption there are details about Crossfield & the 1992 search/arrest
 
Hmmm....an Icecream bucket full? That would spread out over a driveway that long- anywhere for that matter
The slough- possibly, I'd be worried though that they might drift and settle around the edges

Ha ha W, I was thinking a Häagen-Dazs container you're thinking 5 gallons.
 
I also think DG has a private spot for something (not sure what). I can't see him having everything he wants while living in the presence of his parents at their home, he doesn't seem like that much of a simpleton living the simple life. I wonder if he has a trailer, storage unit, some place between Calgary and Airdrie for his own privacy. If so, I would think he took the victims there (probably deceased).

And if so, it could be a remote private setting and he would be capable of building an underground hideout that would sustain him for a long period of time if need be.
 
Hmmm...wonder what name he may of registered these things under...surely not MH or his own? Wonder if LE checks into such things that are connected to his parents names (not in anyway suggesting that they were involved...I doubt he would ask their permission to use their names)...and if all is true about DG, I doubt he would care if his parent's names were used to get what he wanted anyway....IMO the guy was running out of options...

When I did a reverse phone number search for DG's company P2 Solutions Ltd. It comes up as A E Garland. The fathers name is Archie, the E could be his middle initial, or its an alias.

I also wonder more about this business and what exactly the products are used for. What industry? What makes money? Besides drugs... Gold, oil....?
 
Wow you sleuthers are doing a fabulous job digging up information in this case. Keep up the fantastic job. So upsetting to know the victims have not been located yet. Too bad water boarding wasn't an acceptable method here in Canada to getting answers.

I found this information quite interesting. Wonder if evidence found in the Garland house may have lead them to speculate. JMO.

Global News has learned that investigators are now seeing if he has links to any other violent crimes, which experts say is common in cases like this.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1472714/p...as-garland-has-links-to-other-violent-crimes/
 
IMO I believe that he has ADD, a personality disorder and has had a few " neurotic" breakdowns.
I believe he deliberately planned this murder, got into the house, perhaps got the first person, was surprised by NO and by them was committed. I don't think he was possessed or psychotic.

Jumping off from your post. We know some of the symptoms which DG has displayed at different points of his life, and have been drawing our own conclusions about the potential pathologies which might underly them. As well DG has been called a meth cook (http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/07/0...ve-year-old-pleads-please-keep-your-eyes-open) and pleaded guilty to two counts of drug trafficking, (http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/c...k+Liknes+family+drug+past/10005813/story.html). He also is said to have ADHD and has suffered mental breakdowns.

While DG may have had mental health problems since he was a young man, I don't think we can ignore the potential effects on his health and behaviour after being involved in producing meth and/or crystal meth.

If DG was once again involved in producing and/or using meth or crystal meth, then, IMO, some of the foliowing information may apply to his mental state and his behaviour around the time of the disappearance, whether or not he was involved in the disappearance of AK, KL, and Nathan.

http://www.justice.gov/archive/olp/methawareness/

Methamphetamine is a powerful, highly addictive stimulant drug that dramatically affects the central nervous system.* It is usually illegally produced and distributed...In the long term, a person using meth may experience irritability, fatigue, headaches, anxiety, sleeplessness, confusion, aggressive feelings, violent rages, cravings for more meth, and depression.* They may become psychotic and experience paranoia, auditory hallucinations, mood disturbances, and delusions.* The paranoia may lead to homicidal or suicidal thoughts.

http://www.studiowestdesigns.com/client_pages/fdnya/education_articles/meth.html


A meth user may exhibit some or all of the following symptoms and behaviors …


Physical Symptoms:
* Weight loss
* Abnormal sweating
* Shortness of breath
* Nasal problems or nosebleeds
* Sores that do not heal
* Dilated pupils 
* Burns on lips or fingers
* Track marks on arms 



Behavioral Symptoms:
* Withdrawal from family and friends
* Change in friends
* Disinterest in previously enjoyed activities 
* Increased activity
* Long periods of sleeplessness (24-120 hours) 
* Long periods of sleep (24-48 hours)
* Incessant talking
* Irritability
* Twitching and shaking
* Itching
* Decreased appetite
* Erratic attention span
* Repetitious behavior, such as picking at skin, pulling out hair, compulsively cleaning, grooming or disassembling and assembling objects * Aggression or violent behavior
* False sense of confidence and power
* Convulsions
* Carelessness about appearance
* Deceit or secretiveness




Mental Symptoms:
* Paranoia
* Anxiousness
* Nervousness
* Agitation
* Extreme moodiness 
* Severe depression
* Hallucinations
* Delusions of parasites or insects crawling under the skin. 




** In all cases of meth use, a user may experience a loss of inhibitions and a false sense of control and confidence, which can lead to dangerous behavior.

Please note: I've highlighted some points I think are relevant using bold.
 
Hmmm....an Icecream bucket full? That would spread out over a driveway that long- anywhere for that matter
The slough- possibly, I'd be worried though that they might drift and settle around the edges

Cremated remains of one individual are usually presented to family members in a velvet bag about the size of a Crown Royal Whisky bag. (the kind kids used to store their marble collection in).
Having said that, those remains would have been processed in a (professional) crematorium at high heat (1400 - 1600 degrees Farenheit) for several hours. Burning human remains in a burning bin, or in some other haphazard way by the accused would not
give the same result. (I don't even want to think about the reality of a botched crematory;(...
http://www.cremationresource.org/cremation/how-is-a-body-cremated.html
 

What do we know about the authors of that article?
Why is this reference reliable?
What secondary sources make the information valid?
The article mentions what appear to be anecdotes from 1897, and 1940. Where are the references?
Are there no recent studies on animals to validate this information?

From the link:

"Heated to 300 degrees, a lye solution can turn a body into tan liquid with the consistency of mineral oil in just three hours."

Where, or how, was he heating something to 300 degrees?

"If your kettle isn't pressurized, you won't be able to heat the solution much above the boiling point of water, 212 degrees, and it might take an additional hour or two to complete the process."

What did he use that is pressurized?

"Adolph Luetgert, known in his day as the "Sausage King of Chicago," dumped his wife into a boiling vat of lye in 1897, then burned what was left. Police eventually found bone fragments in the factory's furnace."

Where are the bone fragments?

"British murderer John George Haigh used sulfuric acid to dissolve at least six of his victims in the 1940s. He processed the bodies in a 45-gallon oil drum and reported that the victims dissolved completely in about two days. He also said he had to leave the room, finding the fumes intolerable. (Sulfuric acid can cause third-degree burns."

Where are the 45 gallon oil drums?

"In addition to being safer and more efficient, lye is also easier to obtain than strong acids. You can purchase 8 pounds of it—enough to dissolve a few bodies—from soap-making or farm-supply stores for less than $15."

If lye was recently purchased (not available at UFA), there would be a record.

link: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2009/12/soluble_dilemma.html
 
This information about murdering his wife is not the same as the information in the linked article about using lye to make a body disappear. I don't believe that this linked article about using lye is reliable: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2009/12/soluble_dilemma.html

Additionally, if we're going to hold journalists to such a high standard that they must use the criminal code terms used by police to describe a crime scene, rather than common day to day language, then we also have to ensure that linked sources are valid and verified with references.

Adolph Louis Luetgert

"Adolph Louis Luetgert, a German born entrepreneur who opened the A.L. Luetgert Sausage & Packing Company, in 1879, lives in Chicago infamy as the man who may, or may not have, turned his beautiful young bride into packaged meats. ... This series of circumstantial evidence led Schuettler to devise the theory that Luetgert, in an effort to eliminate his young bride in order to marry a wealthy widow he was reportedly spotted all over the city with, had killed his wife, boiled her remains in acid, and then disposed of what was left over in the industrial furnaces at his meat packing factory. He and a team of officers drained the 12 foot by 5 foot smoking vat adjacent to the furnaces inside the factory and discovered a heavy ring with the letters "L.L." inscribed inside, as well as the fragment of a female skull.

Coincidentally, he claimed, Adolph Luetgert had given his beautiful young bride a very heavy metal ring with her new initials, L.L., Louise Luetgert, inscribed inside the band, upon their marriage. He argued vehemently that his wife had simply "disappeared".

Officers discovered an additional ring, as well as a toe phalanx, and a rib in the remains of the furnace, and, supposedly, a third ring was found in the cast-off pan of one of Luetgert's meat grinders."

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-sausage-king-kills-the-strange-story-of-adolph-luetgert

NOTE: this article claims that acid, not lye (per the linked article) was used, and that an industrial furnace could not destroy bone.
 
What do we know about the authors of that article?
Why is this reference reliable?
What secondary sources make the information valid?
The article mentions what appear to be anecdotes from 1897, and 1940. Where are the references?
Are there no recent studies on animals to validate this information?

From the link:

"Heated to 300 degrees, a lye solution can turn a body into tan liquid with the consistency of mineral oil in just three hours."

Where, or how, was he heating something to 300 degrees?

"If your kettle isn't pressurized, you won't be able to heat the solution much above the boiling point of water, 212 degrees, and it might take an additional hour or two to complete the process."

What did he use that is pressurized?

"Adolph Luetgert, known in his day as the "Sausage King of Chicago," dumped his wife into a boiling vat of lye in 1897, then burned what was left. Police eventually found bone fragments in the factory's furnace."

Where are the bone fragments?

"British murderer John George Haigh used sulfuric acid to dissolve at least six of his victims in the 1940s. He processed the bodies in a 45-gallon oil drum and reported that the victims dissolved completely in about two days. He also said he had to leave the room, finding the fumes intolerable. (Sulfuric acid can cause third-degree burns."

Where are the 45 gallon oil drums?

"In addition to being safer and more efficient, lye is also easier to obtain than strong acids. You can purchase 8 pounds of it—enough to dissolve a few bodies—from soap-making or farm-supply stores for less than $15."

If lye was recently purchased (not available at UFA), there would be a record.

link: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2009/12/soluble_dilemma.html

Not that this was a method used to dispose of the victims, but almost all your questions have been answered.

What did he use that was pressurized?
Perhaps nothing, and it took the extra hour or two that you yourself quoted.


Where are the bone fragments?
Well, wouldn't it make sense that LE may have found some at the acreage? It sure would then be easy to prove the victims are deceased, and it would also make it easy to prove the alleged perp was involved since they would have been found on the property. LE is not going to release that information, so we don't know what, if anything, was found.

Where are the drums?
Wasn't there an aerial pic of some? Or perhaps they are inside one of the numerous buildings.

Where is a second reference to verify whatever?
Google it.
 
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