Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #14

[otto]

Are there any links to information about how chemicals, and/or incineration, is used to make a body completely disappear? The one link that has been posted several times has problems with facts, and no references. We have to include the facts with the theory, so incineration temperature is a factor. Open fires on the prairies are not realistic, and extremely high temperatures are not realistic. Putting things down the drain is not an option because there is a septic tank and field.

What is a feasible theory based on chemicals/incineration ... one that includes valid links?

 

[Krystine]

Police believe the accused may be connected to Helena, who was murdered in 2006 and left in a field 10 miles from his parent's acreage.

I know it's a fact that Helena was found there, I'm not disputing that at all but I'm surprised it took years to find her. I know something about that affluent agricultural area north of Calgary. The area is quite populated and land owners tend to be constantly surveying their land. Most farmers would know if a coyote feasted on a deer in his back forty.
Land is ploughed and seeded and harvested- nothing is left to seed for very long with the exception of the long winter months, which I would think would have a preserving effect. I don't know for sure, but it seems a body with long bones intact would get caught in farm equipment and would be found in the months between planting and harvest. If the intact bodies are nearby in a field, I suspect they will be found by the end of harvest, if not sooner. JMO.

 

[otto]

Question: was her body buried or just dumped? My recollection is that she was dumped. And yet it took quite a long time for her remains to be found. I have argued a few times that the bodies of the Ls and NO could have been dumped and not buried somewhere remote. If I was a murderer intent on disposing of bodies, I'd be trying to get them out of my possession ASAP, not wasting precious time trying to chemically dissolve or burn them down to ash.

Why get rid of the bodies at all? I think it could be for the simple reason that without bodies, prosecution can be much more difficult. This added to the fact the Ls were leaving the country might create enough reasonable doubt about whether they were actually dead. At least, that might be the rational behind removing the bodies.

IMO

It was dumped. I believe the skull bone and a couple of other bones (femur/tibia - not sure) were found. Two young girls were picking flowers in a field when they found the remains.

 

[otto]

I know it's a fact that Helena was found there, I'm not disputing that fact at all. But I know something about that affluent agricultural area north of Calgary. I'm surprised because that area is quite populated and land owners tend to be constantly surveying their land. Most farmers would know if a coyote feasted on a deer in his back forty.
Land is tilled and planted and harvested- nothing is left to seed for very long. I don't know for sure, but it seems a body with long bones intact would get caught in farm equipment and would be found in the months between planting and harvest. JMO.

It was found either in the field, or across the road near the stream - which is the textured area in the aerial photo.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

They may have sent mountains in and there will be a report on each item but it depends on what will have come back as positive and indisputable as evidence of the crime.

Preliminary inquiry lasting six to eight months because of the volume of evidence... that's already what has been chosen to present in court.

 

[Krystine]

It was found either in the field, or across the road near the stream - which is the textured area in the aerial photo.

Do we know what time of year she disappeared, and how long it took her to be found? I have a strong suspicion with all of the farming activity in the upcoming months, if they are nearby they would be found soon...before the end of the season.
I believe it was Al's eldest son that stated that DG's truck would not be able to travel too far off the laneways and township roads? I still like the speculation made that a front end loader or backhoe could have been used and could have gone unnoticed, (unless he were found disposing of anything on someone's private property).

 

[otto]

Preliminary inquiry lasting six to eight months because of the volume of evidence... that's already what has been chosen to present in court.

Unless the preliminary hearing is waived ... which can also happen.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Are there any links to information about how chemicals, and/or incineration, is used to make a body completely disappear? The one link that has been posted several times has problems with facts, and no references. We have to include the facts with the theory, so incineration temperature is a factor. Open fires on the prairies are not realistic, and extremely high temperatures are not realistic. Putting things down the drain is not an option because there is a septic tank and field.

What is a feasible theory based on chemicals/incineration ... one that includes valid links?

We cannot say they found anything for certain, but given LE seems to have found some possibly unknown DNA from the victims somewhere... enough they feel they can prove death... the feasible theory would be a "tried and failed" one with incineration or chemicals.

There may not have been enough heat, and left remains... some sort of chemical may not have worked as expected... the release of the truck picture may have forced a much earlier disposal than planned.

The amount of time LE spent at the acreage, the lack of bodies yet something left somewhere to prove death, the fact the bodies were taken from the scene, the voluminous amount of evidence, "they don't know what they are looking for", and "lab results still coming back"... it all seems to hint at a processing of the bodies of some sort, but not an effective one.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Unless the preliminary hearing is waived ... which can also happen.

You missed the point... that's how long the Crown expects it to last, if it goes ahead, based on the evidence it already intends to present in court. It is a long time, meaning they have voluminous evidence they intend to present in court... not, they have voluminous evidence that they are still waiting for results on and haven't chosen what to present yet... as was earlier suggested.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I know it's a fact that Helena was found there, I'm not disputing that at all but I'm surprised it took years to find her. I know something about that affluent agricultural area north of Calgary. The area is quite populated and land owners tend to be constantly surveying their land. Most farmers would know if a coyote feasted on a deer in his back forty.
Land is ploughed and seeded and harvested- nothing is left to seed for very long with the exception of the long winter months, which I would think would have a preserving effect. I don't know for sure, but it seems a body with long bones intact would get caught in farm equipment and would be found in the months between planting and harvest. If the intact bodies are nearby in a field, I suspect they will be found by the end of harvest, if not sooner. JMO.

Google Maps shows Banff, which means heavy forest and rocky mountains, an hour and a half drive away from Calgary. One would be a lot smarter to head into that area for disposal.

LE seems to be focussed in the other areas you mentioned though... so who knows, you may be right... something might be found soon.

 

[LoriMcA]

Do we know what time of year she disappeared, and how long it took her to be found? I have a strong suspicion with all of the farming activity in the upcoming months, if they are nearby they would be found soon...before the end of the season.
I believe it was Al's eldest son that stated that DG's truck would not be able to travel too far off the laneways and township roads? I still like the speculation made that a front end loader or backhoe could have been used and could have gone unnoticed, (unless he were found disposing of anything on someone's private property).

IIRC...she went missing July 2006 and was found mid-May 2007.

 

[Linike]

We cannot say they found anything for certain, but given LE seems to have found some possibly unknown DNA from the victims somewhere... enough they feel they can prove death... the feasible theory would be a "tried and failed" one with incineration or chemicals.

There may not have been enough heat, and left remains... some sort of chemical may not have worked as expected... the release of the truck picture may have forced a much earlier disposal than planned.

The amount of time LE spent at the acreage, the lack of bodies yet something left somewhere to prove death, the fact the bodies were taken from the scene, the voluminous amount of evidence, "they don't know what they are looking for", and "lab results still coming back"... it all seems to hint at a processing of the bodies of some sort, but not an effective one.

Does anyone know if LE are still actively searching? I havent heard anything to that fact..........that is a large indicator as to what they are dealing with in terms of what they have found to date.

 

[Krystine]

Google Maps shows Banff, which means heavy forest and rocky mountains, an hour and a half drive away from Calgary. One would be a lot smarter to head into that area for disposal.

LE seems to be focussed in the other areas you mentioned though... so who knows, you may be right... something might be found soon.

I agree, a premeditated multiple murder would include a good plan for disposal.
Banff is very heavily populated by tourists in the summer months, it's a huge National Park. It's very hard to access anything off the highway, if I recall from my Alberta years, and the spots where you can pull over are rarely without a lot of people. The highway cuts right through the Rockies, they are literally on either side for most of the drive.
Now Nordegg, in the other direction, past Rocky Mountain House, is very remote, rough and craggy with jackpines lining the highway for miles on both sides. There are also cut lines from forestry that I think can be driven down without too much trouble.

 

[Krystine]

And oh!! Grande Cache is a mining town that went 'bust' in the late 80's. There could be some mine shafts still accessible.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

http://m.airdriecityview.com/articl...se-makes-court-appearance&template=JQMArticle

"“We’ve set the next date into September just to allow Mr. Ross to take an initial view of that disclosure and then we’ll in a better position to schedule the length of time for the next step, which is a preliminary inquiry,” he added.

Parker said the amount of evidence is “voluminous” and that his office continues to receive lab results. He said he expects the preliminary inquiry to take six to eight months because of the volume of evidence."

Anyone still want to debate nothing was found at the acreage?

Has there been any definite indication that the disclosure documents have been received by the Defense yet? I've looked and can't find anything.

 

[Cherchri]

You missed the point... that's how long the Crown expects it to last, if it goes ahead, based on the evidence it already intends to present in court. It is a long time, meaning they have voluminous evidence they intend to present in court... not, they have voluminous evidence that they are still waiting for results on and haven't chosen what to present yet... as was earlier suggested.

Indeed! What will happen on Sept 17th is that DG will enter a plea. Having had disclosure KR and his client will now know how damning (or not) the evidence is and a plea will be entered accordingly. If DG pleads guilty there will be no trial. For him to do so, that "voluminous" evidence will have to be conclusive. Without bodies, conclusive evidence would have to be in the form of DNA retrieved from the Airdrie acreage along with corroborating evidence like fragments of their clothing, etc. LE seems very confident with what they've got so let's hope it's enough.

 

[Krystine]

IIRC...she went missing July 2006 and was found mid-May 2007.

It's surprising Helena would not be found at harvest time in 2006. Any farmers on here that might think like a farmer when disposing of bodies?

 

[LoisLane]

If DG has murdered others maybe he keeps the bodies in various hiding spots and moves them around over time.
I think Nordegg and Rocky Mtn. House are good options and with the recent (May) media coverage of AH who was found in Nordegg maybe DG considered the spot as it was near impossible to search in the winter.

 

[stan laurel]

It's surprising Helena would not be found at harvest time in 2006. Any farmers on here that might think like a farmer when disposing of bodies?

unless the field was fallow that season?

 

[stan laurel]

If DG has murdered others maybe he keeps the bodies in various hiding spots and moves them around over time.
I think Nordegg and Rocky Mtn. House are good options and with the recent (May) media coverage of AH who was found in Nordegg maybe DG considered the spot as it was near impossible to search in the winter.

I'm just using your quote to outline something that we've forgotten; Alberta had an extremely wet Spring (talked to some farmers in the S end of the province who received 9 inches in 72 hours). Forestry Trunk Roads, Crown Land/Lease Land - even the ones graded and maintained - are as slick as a well soiled diaper, 4WD and a winch is a must. It would be foolhardy to even chance it and tow trucks called sometimes call other tow trucks. As for mine shafts that are abandoned, they are very sketchy and most of the gypsum and coal shafts have been blocked (if it were the 70's, this would be different).

moving water such as the lower Bow at Bassano/Brooks, or even the Red Deer River which is not only swift but covers stuff with silt very quickly.