Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #19

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Let's look at if P, then Q ... in part responding to the quoted post.

1. Are the Liknes couple alive: yes, or no?

If yes, then the determination by the medical examiners office that they are dead is dead wrong. They are alive. The Medical Examiner is wrong.
If no, then we accept the decision of the medical examiner, which is supported by 200 officers, numerous police departments, the crown prosecutor's office, and the Chief of Police.

What's the answer to the fist question?

• If they are alive, then the medical examiner is wrong.
• If P, then Q.

• If they are deceased, then the medical examiner is right.
• If P, then Q.

In what scenario is "Liknes couple dead, then police are incompetent"? That doesn't fit.

• If the police department is incompetent regardless of whether the Liknes couple is dead or alive, then the issue is police incompetence ... and there is no evidence of that.
• If P, then Q.

All 200 officers, numerous police departments, and the Chief of Police have all conducted themselves admirably. The senior prosecutor has overseen the investigation from beginning to end.

The only question is whether the couple is alive or dead, and whether we have faith in the Medical Examiner.
What do we know about him?

2. If there was a question 2, it would be: on what grounds should police be considered incompetent?

I haven't seen anything saying the ME declared them deceased, please provide the link. Have they even been LEGALLY declared dead yet? Once we establish that fact, then I will take you through it...

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I'm going to post a bit of a timeline I posted early on in this case ... I know that Sillybilly has a timeline that covers the big picture, but this relates to the victims and the accused.

1948 Alvin born
1960 Graduated High School (18 years old)
1960 Garland born
1961 Kathryn born
1960-198? Alvin is Married, four children (39 years old ... what was he doing for the last 27 years ... working the rigs? ... is that where he got the idea to patent the process?)
1968 Garland little sister is born
1968 Allen Liknes is born
1978 Garland graduates High School
1979 Kathryn graduates High School
1980 Garland expelled from University of Alberta
1981 Kathryn completes printmaking program (can't find link or date anymore)
1982 Garland arrested for meth manufacturing
1986 Allen Liknes graduates High School
1987 Kathryn, daughter born
1991? Alvin marries Kathryn, Nathan's natural grandmother (43 years old, Kathryn is 30)
1992 Alvin and Kathryn, son born
1994 Alvin declares bankruptcy (46 years old)
1994-2014 (numerous penny stock oil companies, an account in Panama, connections with a real estate fraud conviction in the US, a merger between a construction company and an oil company (White-something homes and Blue Sky oil and gas in Nevada, and 3 bankruptcies) (66 years old)
1992-1999 Garland in Vancouver
1999 Garland re-arrested
2000 Garland released from prison (served 6 months of 39 month sentence)
2012 Kathryn declares bankruptcy
2014 Alvin declares bankruptcy
2014 Alvin/Kathryn murdered (66/53 years old)

Thanks Otto

 

[Lalalacasbah]

In my opinion, Garland appears to come from a successful family. The property is very well looked after, with irrigation system, green house, large country home on a large country property. Irrigation systems are not the norm for a 40 acre property, but given that the family had an irrigation system, I suspect that there was plenty of money both at the time that the property was purchased, and now. The property was probably purchased for about $35k, and today it is worth $3-4 million (perhaps as much as $8m as a bundle). That doesn't happen by accident. That is a result of clever investments. Clever investments in property suggests to me that there were also clever investments in stocks and other investment portfolios.

I've posted my theory of the motive before, and I'm going to post it again. I think that the Garland family was financially comfortable due to hard work, clever investments, and solid financial planning. They moved to the Airdrie property in the early 1970s, at the time when the Calgary oil boom was just taking off. People that made it big in oil bought acreages just outside of the city - just like the Garlands did. I suspect that if any of the children asked for a bit of an advance of inheritance today, it wouldn't be a problem. I have a suspicion that Garland's sister asked for a bit of an advance and that, for whatever reason, this money ended up invested in the joint Liknes/Garland Mexico condo. Perhaps his sister saw this as a solid investment.

The information about the condo being a joint Liknes/Garland purchase came out a day or two after it was announced that police were investigating something related to the murder in Mexico (which was Aug 5-6, 2014). There was one video release of the information. It was probably a leak that was never meant to go public, but it did.

I can't make any sense of the murders without including both my opinion that the Garlands are prosperous, and that the condo factors into the equation. The only Garland that would have any reason to give money to the Liknes couple for their retirement condo in Mazatlan is the sister of Douglas Garland. I highly doubt that Garland's sister saved enough for an investment in Mexico while raising three growing children. She is common law with Alvin's son. No other Garland would put money towards that retirement condo. The sister has three children. We don't know anything about her, but I'm of the opinion that she could have been encouraged to borrow the money from her parents, or request an inheritance advance. I think that, if that happened, and the money was then put towards a condo rather than for day to day family needs, I think that would be enough for Douglas Garland to be really angry. I think Douglas had a grudge against Alvin from the time when he created the design for a patent for Alvin, where Alvin then paid him a contractor's wage and kept the rights to the patent design (omitting Garland's name as designer). I think this bothered Garland for years. If it is true that Garland's sister obtained money from the family - loan or inheritance advance - and then put it towards a condo in Mexico where her name was not on title (no rights to the property), that would have been enough for Douglas Garland to decide to end Alvin and Kathryn's lives. He would have felt that not only was he cheated, but his sister was cheated, and he probably worried that his sister's inheritance - possibly one third of up to $8 million - would be used not for her children, but perhaps by her husband's extended family.

This all hinges to four premises: that the sister received money from her parents, that it is the sister that represents the Garland interest in the Mexico property, that Garland harboured a deep resentment against the Liknes couple for his belief that they cheated him, and that he was not going to allow the Liknes couple to get their hands on his family money.

I think your theory makes sense.

Strangely, as much as I think DG is probably a con, sociopath and possibly a psychopath (to kill a child), I could see his motive definitely being driven not by money, but what you said - resentment from his idea/recognition being ripped away from him in combination with his sister being mistreated this way.

DG probably wanted his own justice for these things. The weird thing is, if DG is at all 'protective' of his sister and her family, and felt AL should pay, I still find it puzzling he would harm NO when he has nieces and nephews himself.

 

[LoisLane]

JO is 34, her age was listed in the recent article about the foundation in Nathan's name. It said something to the effect that AL has been in her life since she was 6, and the only father she has ever known.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/1...ggles-and-honouring-their-lost-childs-legacy/

ETA: I think the youngest L child is only in his early 20's. at least that's what's been reported, although I can't find a link at the moment

Thanks YYC!

 

[LoisLane]

Kathryn was born in 1961. She finished high school in about 1979-80. At some point (at the time that Jen was born) she completed a diploma in print making at SAIT (she later morphed this into website design). After completing the program, 1981-82, perhaps 1983-84, Kathryn worked near Alvin. She met her friend from Canmore at the time that she was learning print making, and Jen was born, no earlier than 1982. Kathryn and Alvin started a family with their son, who was quoted in the media as having recently completed an engineering degree.

If their son recently completed something at the university, that puts him at about 22-23 years old. If he was born early in the marriage, when Jen was about 5-6 years old, if he is 22, then she is 27, then Kathryn would have been 25-26 when she met Alvin ... according to the numbers I can figure out ... but perhaps there's an error somewhere. If so, where would it be?

Is it that Jen was five or six when Kathryn married Alvin, and their son is younger by 10 years? The only way that works is if Kathryn and Alvin's son is about 27 years old ... which means that he had no reason to live at home. Wasn't there lots of talk about the son still living at home and dragging garbage bins around the front yard in the middle of the night, or coming home from a camping trip in the middle of the long weekend? Is the idea that the man is nearly 30 and he's still hauling his camping trip to his parent's house?

We can't keep moving the goal posts each time something is presented as a viable explanation. Is the son so young (22 years of age) that he would be storing camping equipment at home (his parent's house) in the middle of a long weekend? Is he 22 years old, or is he 27 years old, and storing camping equipment at his parent's house ... 27 suggests that he's far more troublesome than a late bloomer. And Jen is 32 or 33, or is she 27, born in 1987?

I am not following your comment. I have had a long day. Anyway, JO is 34. As for JL I can guestimate based on my FB sleuthing. If I come across a confirmation of his birth year I will let you know. KL had JO when she was 19 if we consider that JO is 34. I have heard on a few occassions Jennifer's age. IIRC she was born in August and if she is 34 her birth year is 1980. It should fit in the timeline easily enough.

I have been on JL's FB and he has photo's tagged Grad 2007, the kids in the photo's look very young and so I think it is junior high grad. I believe Grade 9 has graduation celebrations in Alberta. If I go by grade 9 2007 and do the math he would have graduated high school in 2010. His birthday is in March so he could have been 18 at his time of graduation. Which would make him 22 in March of this year. I think he is in first or second year Uni.

 

[news.talk]

I haven't seen anything saying the ME declared them deceased, please provide the link. Have they even been LEGALLY declared dead yet? Once we establish that fact, then I will take you through it...

In order to run an obituary, they are required to produce the death certificate.

The Crown also cannot file homicide charges without an issued death certificate.

 

[otto]

JO is 34, her age was listed in the recent article about the foundation in Nathan's name. It said something to the effect that AL has been in her life since she was 6, and the only father she has ever known.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/1...ggles-and-honouring-their-lost-childs-legacy/

ETA: I think the youngest L child is only in his early 20's. at least that's what's been reported, although I can't find a link at the moment

Thank you! That means that Kathryn was finishing her SAIT print making diploma in 1982, and she was pregnant with her daughter. That would suggest that Alvin and Kathryn's son is about 5-6 years younger, 1987-88. That would mean that their son is about 26 or 27 years old today. If that is true, why was it suggested that the 26-27 year old son lived with his parents? Was he a bartender or an engineer? ... a child or an adult? living at home, or living independently? Did Douglas Garland run any risk of running into a 27 year old living at home son or not?

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

In order to run an obituary, they are required to produce the death certificate.

The Crown also cannot file homicide charges without an issued death certificate.

... and how does one obtain one of those?

(psssst... you might not want to walk down this road. You'll break up with me once we get to the end. "There was no “smoking gun”, he said, rather “the preponderance of evidence that leads investigators to believe they are dead.”" Don't tell anyone... just let them keep taking rope.)

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...us-secrecy-over-arrest-in-nathan-obrien-case/

 

[news.talk]

... and how does one obtain one of those?

(psssst... you might not want to walk down this road. You'll break up with me once we get to the end. "There was no “smoking gun”, he said, rather “the preponderance of evidence that leads investigators to believe they are dead.”" Don't tell anyone... just let them keep taking rope.)

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...us-secrecy-over-arrest-in-nathan-obrien-case/

If you want to break up, there is no need for a road trip.

If we manage to get through this tiff and you go to obtain our marriage certificate, you can order a death certificate at the same time.

http://www.servicealberta.ca/VitalStatistics.cfm


Regardless how the evidence was obtained, the end result was homicide charges. The Crown needs to provide a death certificate as a matter of record in order to proceed. Had there been no such certificate issued by the ME, the entire case would have been thrown out and the suspect would likely not be sitting in jail.

XOXOXO

 

[Krystine]

Thank you! That means that Kathryn was finishing her SAIT print making diploma in 1982, and she was pregnant with her daughter. That would suggest that Alvin and Kathryn's son is about 5-6 years younger, 1987-88. That would mean that their son is about 26 or 27 years old today. If that is true, why was it suggested that the 26-27 year old son lived with his parents? Was he a bartender or an engineer? ... a child or an adult? living at home, or living independently? Did Douglas Garland run any risk of running into a 27 year old living at home son or not?

Even reading this makes me very squeamish. Do we really need a timeline of events in each of the victims' family members, and to pin down the exact age of the victims' offspring? Next, are we going to calculate the day JO was conceived? I'm really struggling to find a good reason for this invasion of the family's privacy.

 

[otto]

I am not following your comment. I have had a long day. Anyway, JO is 34. As for JL I can guestimate based on my FB sleuthing. If I come across a confirmation of his birth year I will let you know. KL had JO when she was 19 if we consider that JO is 34. I have heard on a few occassions Jennifer's age. IIRC she was born in August and if she is 34 her birth year is 1980. It should fit in the timeline easily enough.

I have been on JL's FB and he has photo's tagged Grad 2007, the kids in the photo's look very young and so I think it is junior high grad. I believe Grade 9 has graduation celebrations in Alberta. If I go by grade 9 2007 and do the math he would have graduated high school in 2010. His birthday is in March so he could have been 18 at his time of graduation. Which would make him 22 in March of this year. I think he is in first or second year Uni.

So Jen is 34 years old, her brother is 5-6 years younger, at 26-27 years of age? The suggestions that this 26-27 year old was returning in the middle of a long weekend at the end of June to store camping equipment or drag a garbage can around the front yard, and be absent during the murders, seems strange on many levels. I had assumed that he was 22 years old, and that the bartending gig was temporary. At 27, the supposed engineer that is bartending is not really an engineer ... perhaps didn't graduate.

Was he still living at home at that age?

 

[otto]

... and how does one obtain one of those?

(psssst... you might not want to walk down this road. You'll break up with me once we get to the end. "There was no “smoking gun”, he said, rather “the preponderance of evidence that leads investigators to believe they are dead.”" Don't tell anyone... just let them keep taking rope.)

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...us-secrecy-over-arrest-in-nathan-obrien-case/

What preponderance of evidence, other than the green truck (the smoking gun), the burning fire reported by the neighbour lasting what ... 15 hours?, the attempted escape from justice.

There is no "preponderance of evidence" that leads investigators to know that the victims are dead. The Medical Examiner made the determination. The victims are declared deceased as a result of evidence at the crime scene. The medical examiner could not make a determination of death without clear, indisputable evidence.

What sort of secrecy is involved in the arrest of Douglas Garland. His name is not secrecy. The only thing that was secrecy was the fact that he was expelled from the University of Alberta in October of his second year of university, and he told a court in British Columbia that he voluntarily left the university because of a car accident. No secrecy there. He was arrested in 1982, but it was 10 years later that he fled to Vancouver and adopted a false name, in 1992. He was arrested in 1999 after a tip, and spent 6 months in jail ... with documented mental, violence, and authority issues.

Does the Blatchford reporter have more secrets to spill?

 

[LoisLane]

So Jen is 34 years old, her brother is 5-6 years younger, at 26-27 years of age? The suggestions that this 26-27 year old was returning in the middle of a long weekend at the end of June to store camping equipment or drag a garbage can around the front yard, and be absent during the murders, seems strange on many levels. I had assumed that he was 22 years old, and that the bartending gig was temporary. At 27, the supposed engineer that is bartending is not really an engineer ... perhaps didn't graduate.

Was he still living at home at that age?

I don't think I have ever said he was 27. I think he is 21 or 22. He is a student at I don't know what and he works, he has a private petroleum club listed as his employer and that he is a bartender. I know a lot of students that would live at home and a lot that don't. I think it is a possibility that he still lived at home or had recently moved out.

 

[otto]

I don't think I have ever said he was 27. I think he is 21 or 22. He is a student at I don't know what and he works, he has a private petroleum club listed as his employer and that he is a bartender. I know a lot of students that would live at home and a lot that don't. I think it is a possibility that he still lived at home or had recently moved out.

If Jen was born in 1982, the earliest that Kathryn could have completed the print making diploma and started working in the oil industry near Alvin is 1981-82. If Jen was born in 1982, and she is 32 years old, okay. She can't be 34 years old because that would mean that Jen was born in 1980, when Kathryn was 19, halfway through her diploma. I think it was later.

Did Jen live at home until she had Nathan at the age of ... let's see ... Nathan was five, and Jen is 34. That means that Nathan was born when Jen was 29 years of age, the same time that she married Rod. What was she doing between 18 and 29 ... did Alvin hook her up with an oil company and she worked her way up the ladder until she met Rod?

What's the story behind his bankruptcy?

We know for a fact that Jen was 5-6 years old when Kathryn and Alvin got together, so their son is at least 5-6 years younger than his older sister. Was she born in 1980, or 1987? Was he born in 1985, or 1992? Is Jen 34 or 27, and is her brother 29 or 22? One thing is certain: we can't have the well adjusted 29 year old living at home with his parents, and it doesn't add up that Douglas Garland would break into the house to murder the occupants if he thought that they had a 22 year old son behind the basement window.

 

[LoisLane]

If Jen was born in 1982, the earliest that Kathryn could have completed the print making diploma and started working in the oil industry near Alvin is 1981-82. If Jen was born in 1982, and she is 32 years old, okay. She can't be 34 years old because that would mean that Jen was born in 1980, when Kathryn was 19, halfway through her diploma. I think it was later.

Did Jen live at home until she had Nathan at the age of ... let's see ... Nathan was five, and Jen is 34. That means that Nathan was born when Jen was 29 years of age, the same time that she married Rod. What was she doing between 18 and 29 ... did Alvin hook her up with an oil company and she worked her way up the ladder until she met Rod?

What's the story behind his bankruptcy?

We know for a fact that Jen was 5-6 years old when Kathryn and Alvin got together, so their son is at least 5-6 years younger than his older sister. Was she born in 1980, or 1987? Was he born in 1985, or 1992? Is Jen 34 or 27, and is her brother 29 or 22? One thing is certain: we can't have the well adjusted 29 year old living at home with his parents, and it doesn't add up that Douglas Garland would break into the house to murder the occupants if he thought that they had a 22 year old son behind the basement window.

I don't understand your point here. You are getting your dates wrong somehow. If it is important to your arguments you may need to confirm the dates with links.

Also, NO attended his parents wedding in 2009.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

If you want to break up, there is no need for a road trip.

If we manage to get through this tiff and you go to obtain our marriage certificate, you can order a death certificate at the same time.

http://www.servicealberta.ca/VitalStatistics.cfm


Regardless how the evidence was obtained, the end result was homicide charges. The Crown needs to provide a death certificate as a matter of record in order to proceed. Had there been no such certificate issued by the ME, the entire case would have been thrown out and the suspect would likely not be sitting in jail.

XOXOXO

My apologies... I misspoke...

How does one obtain a declaration of death in absentia in Alberta?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I am not following your comment. I have had a long day. Anyway, JO is 34. As for JL I can guestimate based on my FB sleuthing. If I come across a confirmation of his birth year I will let you know. KL had JO when she was 19 if we consider that JO is 34. I have heard on a few occassions Jennifer's age. IIRC she was born in August and if she is 34 her birth year is 1980. It should fit in the timeline easily enough.

I have been on JL's FB and he has photo's tagged Grad 2007, the kids in the photo's look very young and so I think it is junior high grad. I believe Grade 9 has graduation celebrations in Alberta. If I go by grade 9 2007 and do the math he would have graduated high school in 2010. His birthday is in March so he could have been 18 at his time of graduation. Which would make him 22 in March of this year. I think he is in first or second year Uni.

IIRC, I thought JL is 22 also, that sounds right.

ETA - I just looked at JL's Grad 07 photos on FB and they definitely look junior high, not graduating from high school, so I think you're correct.

 

[otto]

Even reading this makes me very squeamish. Do we really need a timeline of events in each of the victims' family members, and to pin down the exact age of the victims' offspring? Next, are we going to calculate the day JO was conceived? I'm really struggling to find a good reason for this invasion of the family's privacy.

Actually, I think it's a bit like posting the floor plan of the house ... in terms of understanding whether everything is above board with the victims and suspect, it helps to understand the timeline of the victims. We are not discussing the age of victim's offspring, we are discussing the timeline of Alvin, his second wife, her step-son, his wife, her brother, and why they were murdered. For some, it's of no interest, for others, whether the suspect entered a home where a 22 year old was living is relevant. If the suspect entered the home where a 29 year old was living - very high risk in terms of break and enter. Either the suggestions that the son was dragging the garbage bins around near the time of the murder is incorrect, [modsnip] ... living at home at 29 ... to the extent that the parents liquidate the home and move out. Did their son still live at the Parkhill home?

 

[news.talk]

My apologies... I misspoke...

How does one obtain a declaration of death in absentia in Alberta?

As long as a death certificate has been issued, the process is the same.

 

[otto]

IIRC, I thought JL was 22 also, that sounds right.

ETA - I just looked at JL's Grad 07 photos on FB and they definitely look junior high, not graduating from high school, so I think you're correct.

So the son of Alvin and Kathryn is 22-23 years old age, and Nathan's mom is 27 or 34?. Alvin/Kathryn son is 28-29 years of age? Did Alvin and Kathryn wait 7 years to have their first child?