Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #26

[Slebby]

Anyone want to comment on what they think DG was doing in the house for 1.5 hours? I imagine the struggle only took 10-15 minutes. Does anyone think it was longer? What else was he doing?

I want to know about the video tape with the strange title they found in his office! Can't recall the name right now. What was that video about?

That is a good reminder, he spent a great deal of time in the home.

I have been imagining the assaults occurring in a big frenzy, all at the same time, more or less. In reality, it's possible DG overpowered one of the adults first, then the other. Heavy bleeding in one site might indicate that person lay there unconscious or bound and gagged while DG dealt with another. This would take more time.

IMO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[MistyWaters]

Anyone want to comment on what they think DG was doing in the house for 1.5 hours? I imagine the struggle only took 10-15 minutes. Does anyone think it was longer? What else was he doing?

I want to know about the video tape with the strange title they found in his office! Can't recall the name right now. What was that video about?

The video tape dated after Garlands initial arrest, excellent point, what was that about?

The 1.5 hours, total speculation -
30 minutes Skulking around the parameter of the home, making sure everyone was asleep. Drilling lock, again waiting a length of time to ensure nobody woke up. Slinking into the house, disconnecting router.
15 minutes - Violence
45 minutes - not necessarily in this order but collecting tools, tying up victims, moving truck, loading victims, cleaning, snooping, walking through house several times to ensure no tools to identify him were forgotten, lulling in the perverse thrill of his accomplishment:-(

 

[Georgeo]

But she can know her parents, especially her mom fought as hard as she could for her son.

That statement made me cry. The vision in my head is just heartbreaking.

 

[Kamille]

Not sure how he would think he was getting in the house. He drove past acreage first while there was a police presence. He knew they were there.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Just jumping off your post...

There was probably only one or two RCMP officers stationed at the end of the driveway to protect the scene. Don't think LE were living in the house day and night. He knew the area. He knew how to get onto the property without going near the driveway and probably how to get into the house without being noticed. If he wasn't being tailed, and it appears he was satisfied that he wasn't after all his maneuvers checking to see if he was (obviously those guys are good because they knew everything he was doing but didn't appear to have given themselves away) then he probably figured he could get in and out of there no problem.

He probably would have taken the cash in the rafters and maybe the hard drive. Except I think that stuff was already located at that point wasn't it? I think he was getting ready to flee again. And I wonder just how many assets he had in the MH name? Because we still haven't really been told why that MH identity evidence was permitted into the trial have we? Maybe that's what we'll hear about tomorrow. Maybe he WAS foolish enough to be jotting down his plan of escape in that journal and ticking off all the things he needed to do to accomplish that? One of which was grabbing the stock/bond certificates to cash in?

MOO

 

[olivebpa1]

I didn't follow this case until recently. I mean i had heard of it when it happened but didn't keep up.

Was there talk about why he hadn't been arrested by july 14th? They had evidence by then. Were they hoping he would lead them to the victims if they waited to arrest him and had a tail on him?

 

[Kamille]

That is a good reminder, he spent a great deal of time in the home.

I have been imagining the assaults occurring in a big frenzy, all at the same time, more or less. In reality, it's possible DG overpowered one of the adults first, then the other. Heavy bleeding in one site might indicate that person lay there unconscious or bound and gagged while DG dealt with another. This would take more time.

IMO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm thinking along those lines too. I think he took AL by surprise first and was able to bring him down and restrain him quite quickly in the master bedroom. And KL, hearing a commotion may have been getting up to see what was going on when she was knocked down in the doorway of the spare room and then hit as well. After that, it appears that she was in a fight for her life and the life of her grandson, which she unfortunately lost. :cry:

The evidence from today really painted a picture of two adults who appeared to be knocked out and/or restrained, dragged through their house, hit over the head multiple times and left in various areas while their blood was pooling while their attacker was mopping, making sure he left no evidence of himself, hitting AL again for whatever reason, and figuring out how best to get them into his truck. I won't even speculate as to what was happening with NO. I just can't.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

I wonder if DG brought the towel to plant someone else DNA? Anyone else..leave it by the burn barrel maybe ?

I think it was a new towel that he had just purchased at Walmart? Or was it from the hotel he was staying at? :waitasec:

 

[Kamille]

I didn't follow this case until recently. I mean i had heard of it when it happened but didn't keep up.

Was there talk about why he hadn't been arrested by july 14th? They had evidence by then. Were they hoping he would lead them to the victims if they waited to arrest him and had a tail on him?

I believe he was arrested and held on July 5th on the identity theft charges. But they could only hold him so long before he made bail and they weren't prepared to charge him with the murders yet. I also just started following when the trial started so I'm sure there are others who can correct me if this is wrong.

MOO

 

[naz]

I think it was a new towel that he had just purchased at Walmart? Or was it from the hotel he was staying at? :waitasec:

He bought the towel in walmart, gloves too. the cashier would have touch them ... Maybe he thought the motel was monitored that why he did not want to take one from there.. not sure at this point, maybe it will be in his journal....

 

[Kamille]

Even if he was successful in getting *one* of the murder charges reduced from first degree to something else, what good would it do him? If he was 54 (I think?) when he went to jail, he'd be there for a minimum of 25 years, just for *one* murder, taking him to age 79... and if convincted of two first degree murders, the judge I believe has the prerogative of sentencing him consecutively, rather than concurrently..... so that isn't really going to help him.

So far, the defence's line of questioning has been to suggest there is no proof these things were done by DG (computer could have been used by anyone since not pw protected; he had all kinds of books so picking out certain titles is meaningless in the big picture; no DNA from DG found at the L residence; other people could have had access to the green truck; the tools he purchased are generic and have a wide variety of uses; the stuff found in the outbuildings could have been very old, could have been part of auction lots, could have been meaningless; others could have gained access to the tools and outbuildings to put victim DNA there, and burn people; the shoe box was empty and no shoes of that type were ever found; et et et et). His only hope is to say the Crown didn't prove it was him specifically, and to offer up an alternative theory (imo). I wonder who could have put AL's DNA on the tongue of the shoe he was wearing when arrested though? That's going to be rather difficult to pass off!!!!!

It is the defence's job to point out all of the things that you've listed above. Great job keeping track of so many. If they didn't he may have grounds for an appeal.

That said, the defence knows as well as we do that the jury is not going to buy any of it based on the totality of all of the evidence combined. They just have to point these things out during each individual testimony. And yes, they could say the Crown hasn't definitively proven that he did it but they are not required to come up with any suggestions of their own as to what may have happened. Unless their client has some and wants to get up on the stand and tell the jury all about them. Because while his attorneys can advise him not to, they can't stop him if he wants to. Don't think that's going to happen either.

MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

I believe he was arrested and held on July 5th on the identity theft charges. But they could only hold him so long before he made bail and they weren't prepared to charge him with the murders yet. I also just started following when the trial started so I'm sure there are others who can correct me if this is wrong.

MOO

You're correct, he wasn't charged with the murders until his acreage rendezvous.

Here's a link to quite a comprehensive summary up to July 16, 2014.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...court-appearance-in-nathan-obrien-murder-case

 

[PrincessButtercup]

Good point, it certainly appears it was a complete escape plan.

Do you happen to remember in 2014, there was something about him being evicted from the hotel? Certainly no rental car mentioned, iirc it was that he walked across the field. Odd how some of those alternate stories emerge.

Yes! I remember that

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

 

[olivebpa1]

You're correct, he wasn't charged with the murders until his acreage rendezvous.

Here's a link to quite a comprehensive summary up to July 16, 2014.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...court-appearance-in-nathan-obrien-murder-case

Thanks. That timeline actually helped. Seems like they were probably waiting for those rushed dna tests to come in.

 

[cee_]

Catching up.



I found these comments from the Defense which was said right before trial started

“It’s been a long process for all parties involved so we’re happy to get it going,”"
"As for if the defence will show any evidence, Ross said that decision hasn’t been made yet."
“That’s a decision we’ll be making at the close of the Crown’s case,” he said."

http://www.metronews.ca/news/calgar...ence-lawyer-makes-statement-before-trial.html

This stood out to me, too. I have a theory, and I'm American, so please correct/forgive any misinterpretations I've made of Canadian law.

I'm thinking that DG's lawyers might be vying for a not criminally responsible assessment. According to the website I'm linking below, the NCR process starts after a suspect has pleaded guilty OR.. after they have been found guilty at trial.

IMo, They're waiting until after the Crown rests to decide if they should call Garland's psychiatrist as a witness or not. I believe s/he would have to testify-

As I understand this language, if it can be proved DG was suffering from a mental disorder at the time of the crime, he can be assessed for NCR. It also specified that the defendant doesn't understand their actions were morally wrong, not just legally wrong.

http://lawfacts.ca/mental-health/assessments

DG's notes at trial, the journal he was seen writing in, presumably other journals/writings that exist- maybe those will be brought to surface.

Now, I'm curious how the obvious premeditation would factor into a decision like that? (I mean, everyone pretty much agrees that the defense hasn't tried to dispute really any of the evidence- they know he's guilty, it seems) Does planning a double murder while suffering from a mental disorder make him "eligible" for NCR or could it be argued that premeditation is knowledge of moral wrongdoing (I'm no philosopher)?

Any thoughts??
Ps, I spend more time lurking than posting but a huge shout out to those of you who are posting the trial tweets. You are so appreciated!!

all jmo


eta a detail

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hatfield]

Wasn't he staying at a motel at that point? A motel has towels. He needed a towel he could throw away, it seems. So I agree, he must have wanted to clean up, wipe up or mop up something he considered incriminating. What else do you use a towel for?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

When they mentioned he went and parked in a very secluded spot near an old oil WELL I wondered if maybe he dumped some stuff down the well. Maybe some of the harder things that he could not get to burn like skulls or other tools.

The only problem with that theory is even old oil wells are usually capped off. So unless it was an open well or a large oil holding tank near the well or something like that. I wondered if he was going to move something he had hidden and knew it wasnt the best place to hide it so went to retrieve and move it somewhere else.

Not sure what the towell was needed for unless to wipe his hands off like if they got oil on them from wherever he had to retrieve whatever he had hidden.

 

[Hatfield]

This stood out to me, too. I have a theory, and I'm American, so please correct/forgive any misinterpretations I've made of Canadian law.

I'm thinking that DG's lawyers might be vying for a not criminally responsible assessment. According to the website I'm linking below, the NCR process starts after a suspect has pleaded guilty OR.. after they have been found guilty at trial.

IMo, They're waiting until after the Crown rests to decide if they should call Garland's psychiatrist as a witness or not. I believe s/he would have to testify-

As I understand this language, if it can be proved DG was suffering from a mental disorder at the time of the crime, he can be assessed for NCR. It also specified that the defendant doesn't understand their actions were morally wrong, not just legally wrong.

http://lawfacts.ca/mental-health/assessments

DG's notes at trial, the journal he was seen writing in, presumably other journals/writings that exist- maybe those will be brought to surface.

Now, I'm curious how the obvious premeditation would factor into a decision like that? (I mean, everyone pretty much agrees that the defense hasn't tried to dispute really any of the evidence- they know he's guilty, it seems) Does planning a double murder while suffering from a mental disorder make him "eligible" for NCR or could it be argued that premeditation is knowledge of moral wrongdoing (I'm no philosopher)?

Any thoughts??
Ps, I spend more time lurking than posting but a huge shout out to those of you who are posting the trial tweets. You are so appreciated!!

all jmo


eta a detail

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That sounds very possible. It seems like the defense has some strategy they are going to use which is unique and maybe something like you suggested fits right in with what we have been seeing from them so far.

I am US too so dont know anything about Canada pleadings like that so maybe someone else may know if that strategy could be used.

 

[JadeSLeuth]

Yes! I remember that

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

Yes I remember him being evicted from the hotel also.

 

[Snoopster]

Arns concluded Kathy was “being positioned in four separate areas” while losing blood, Alvin in three.

They did not go gently into that early morning.

And, as a smart Global TV intern noted Wednesday, Garland himself seemed curiously indifferent to much of the evidence. He is, as the young man noticed, most keenly alert when the testimony touches upon what led to his arrest. There is horror in that too.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/christie-blatchford-professionalism-at-garland-trial-cant-blunt-horrors-of-what-happened-in-liknes-home

 

[naz]

Does anyone use scribblelive ? it keeps all the tweets and a lot of the press articles in chronological order. I'm not sure I'm allowed to post the link but if you add DG name it will take you there...

 

[kdgdid]

That is correct he was arrested on the 4th on ID theft, released on the 11th on $750 bail and rearrested on the 14th. He has been in jail since.

I believe he was arrested and held on July 5th on the identity theft charges. But they could only hold him so long before he made bail and they weren't prepared to charge him with the murders yet. I also just started following when the trial started so I'm sure there are others who can correct me if this is wrong.

MOO