Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #26

[otto]

In order to get an understanding of the blood letting, I have made a list of places for each person. If anyone would like to see what I came up with I can make a post. The reason I am not going ahead and posting it is that it is upsetting to read. If people want to see it I will put a large warning for those of you who want to skip over it.

Please do. Anyone who is reading here has made the decision to learn the full story.

 

[CentralAlberta]

WARNING- THIS IS A LIST OF THE PLACES EACH PERSON BLED

****UPSETTING TO READ****

AL
Master Bedroom - large stain on floor, low to floor splatter on drum, TV, air conditioner, night stand.
Spare Room Door Frame - Large stain
Hallway from master bedroom to top of stairs - drag mark
Upper level Stair - drip and saturation
4th step (Bedroom to main floor)
Stairs from Kitchen to garage - stains
Stairwell Walls - staining
Area beside side door - Transfer, drips and saturation
Garage - splatter indicating AL was near floor

KL
Spare Bedroom - Large staining on right side of mattress, box spring and wall near floor, splatter on head board (medium to low velocity)
Door frame to spare room - drip, saturation, splatter on wall outside of door near floor
Closet Door - hand swipe (Mixed with NO)
Stairwell 2nd floor landing - hand swipe (Mixed with NO) Could these 2 be the same?
7 stairs from main floor to bedroom level - drip stains
Kitchen - fridge and drips on floor
Living room - stains
Tile in front entrance - drips
Stairs from Kitchen to Garage - stains
Stairwell walls - stains
Side Door - stains
Side Door to Front of Garage - drag stain
Front of Garage - large pool

NO
Spare Bedroom Bed - Drips
Closet Door - Hand swipe (mixed with KL)
Stairwell to Second Floor - Hand swipe (mixed with KL)

Blood TRransfer
Patio Doors - AL & KL
7 Stairs leading from Bedrooms to main Floor - KL
Wall Upstairs - KL & NO
Wall at top of Stair well - NO

It looks to me that there a major altercation in the master bedroom with AL, then in the door way to spare room with AL & KL. I think they were trying to protect NO as that is where is blood is found. These 2 grandparents gave all they could to fight off this monster but somehow he came through unscathed. MOO

 

[Olivia&Eve]

What do we think of the KL/NO handprints near/ in (?) the closet? Did she try to hide him?

Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk

 

[Kfox]

Also was there not pooling of No on driveway as a major contributor mixed with kl?

 

[deugirtni]

Is it possible that on Thursday, if the 2 remaining Crown witnesses are quick, and the Defence says they will not be presenting a defence, that the judge could go on to instruct the jurors on their deliberations and excuse them to commence their deliberations? Or would the judge adjourn for the day and ask them to come back on Monday for their instruction? (It seems that they don't sit on Fridays 2/3 of the time). I'm thinking they will be excused until Monday, and begin their deliberations early in the week so as to hopefully not require sequestering over a weekend. Thoughts?

 

[deugirtni]

Also was there not pooling of No on driveway as a major contributor mixed with kl?

I don't personally recall reading anything about NO on the driveway, but did read during Mohrbutter's testimony that his blood/DNA was found on the side walkway.... but I don't recall Arns' testimony mentioning NO being found outside the home.

These are from Mohrbutter's testimony the day before:

BG-One swab of a blood stain found on the sidewalk outside of the house matched Kathy Liknes. Another matched Nathan O'Brien. #Garland
KM-Second swab of blood found found outside Liknes home was of mixed origin, but major component matched Nathan O'Brien. #Garland
KM-Swab of bloodstain outside Liknes house matched Kathy. #Garland
LE-Another swab from outside home was determined to belong to Nathan O'Brien. #Garland #yyc
LE-Blood near hose outside Liknes home mattche Kathryn Liknes DNA, along with a male sample, that wasn't suitable for a profile. #Garland #yyc
LM-Blood swabs just outside Liknes home match DNA for Kathy Liknes and Nathan O'Brien #Garland #yyc
MG-Swab of blood taken from outside Liknes' home shows Kathy Liknes & Nathan O'Brien's DNA #Garland
NH-Mohrbutter said 5yr old Nathan O'Brien's DNA was found by the hose outside of the Liknes home #Garland
VF-Mohrbutter: major component of DNA from blood drag marks outside house was Kathy Liknes; other marks outside, major from Nathan.#Garland
KM-Swabs of blood found on walkway and driveway outside Liknes home matched Kathy. #Garland
LE-Blood swab taken from Liknes driveway tested positive for Kathryn. #garland

BG Bill Graveland
IS Ina Sidhu
KM Kevin Martin
LE Lucie Edwardson
LM Lucas Meyer
MG Meghan Grant
MP Michael Platt
NH Nancy Hixt
VF Valerie Fortney

 

[mrazda71]

I've not been able to post myself or ❤ your posts for the last few weeks but, i've been here reading every single post, every single day. I've even got an app on my phone to tell me what time it is in Canada (I'm in UK) so I can be ready to follow along in real time.

I've cried, a lot.
I've felt my breath catch in my throat, a lot.
I've felt sick to my stomach, a lot.
I've had a few 'what the hell!?' moments.
I've had a few 'gotcha! you B******' moments.

My thanks especially, to those posting the tweets and to everyone else for their thoughtful, well worded posts.

I'm not sure if, it has been dealt with in court but we've not heard about it or if it's yet to be discussed but, i've been thinking about the Video tape found with the hard drive in the rafters.

I wondered if maybe it was insignificant but, if so, why was it hidden? And mentioned in court?

 

[musicaljoke]

Is it possible that on Thursday, if the 2 remaining Crown witnesses are quick, and the Defence says they will not be presenting a defence, that the judge could go on to instruct the jurors on their deliberations and excuse them to commence their deliberations? Or would the judge adjourn for the day and ask them to come back on Monday for their instruction? (It seems that they don't sit on Fridays 2/3 of the time). I'm thinking they will be excused until Monday, and begin their deliberations early in the week so as to hopefully not require sequestering over a weekend. Thoughts?

I expect that the judge will need some time to prepare his instructions to the jury. It is critically important that he not make any errors in the instructions, so I don't think that he will risk doing it without putting in a lot of careful thought.

If they finish early, I think that the judge will dismiss the jury so that they can receive counselling. This has to be extremely traumatizing for the jury. They see all the evidence. They see the family suffering. They see the face of that evil monster day after day.

It's my understanding that counselling is available on site for the jury. I think this is why, on some particularly difficult days, the judge ended the proceedings early.

 

[olivebpa1]

I'm sure they were actively bleeding in the house, but by the time they were at the back door where Kathryn was dragged to the driveway, I'm confident that she was near death. I doubt that Nathan survived the attack in the spare bedroom. Alvin was clearly assaulted several times as he was removed from the house.

There is no evidence that suggests NO was killed at the house. In fact there is less of his blood than the adults. No spatter from him and no pools of blood large enough to suggest death. Unless you saw tweets i didn't. I think NO was very much alive. I don't think he knew exactly what he was going to do with NO at the house. He brought him with him to decide back at the farm. That last part is jmo, but the blood evidence does not support him being killed at the house.

 

[olivebpa1]

There is no indication of a saturation pool with N's DNA which there would be if N's throat was slit. All of NO's blood letting was drips or transfer (along with KL) which tells me he was not seriously hurt at the house. MOO

I agree that for me the tweets yesterday did not lead me to believe NO was killed at the house. A lot of people feel differently but i saw no tweets about spatter or large pools of blood. Yes there was a bloodletting on the bed but that just means he was bleeding. No indication it was a large bloodletting. Maybe i am missing something?

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree that for me the tweets yesterday did not lead me to believe NO was killed at the house. A lot of people feel differently but i saw no tweets about spatter or large pools of blood. Yes there was a bloodletting on the bed but that just means he was bleeding. No indication it was a large bloodletting. Maybe i am missing something?

It's impossible to know one way or another but lack of blood loss is not necessarily proof that Nathan was taken alive. It is known that children are especially prone to death through head trauma, without there being any open wounds whatsoever.

 

[Coldpizza]

Crown to call final witnesses at triple-murder trial of Douglas Garland Thursday
By Nancy Hixt

The prosecution is expected to call its final witnesses Thursday at the triple-murder trial of Douglas Garland.

That includes the officer who arrested Garland as he ran through a field near his parents’ property, as well as one of the officers who was in the air with the police HAWCS helicopter.

http://globalnews.ca/news/3235746/c...ple-murder-trial-of-douglas-garland-thursday/

 

[CentralAlberta]

WARNING- THIS IS A LIST OF THE PLACES EACH PERSON BLED

****UPSETTING TO READ****

AL
Master Bedroom - large stain on floor, low to floor splatter on drum, TV, air conditioner, night stand.
Spare Room Door Frame - Large stain
Hallway from master bedroom to top of stairs - drag mark
Upper level Stair - drip and saturation
4th step (Bedroom to main floor)
Stairs from Kitchen to garage - stains
Stairwell Walls - staining
Area beside side door - Transfer, drips and saturation
Garage - splatter indicating AL was near floor

KL
Spare Bedroom - Large staining on right side of mattress, box spring and wall near floor, splatter on head board (medium to low velocity)
Door frame to spare room - drip, saturation, splatter on wall outside of door near floor
Closet Door - hand swipe (Mixed with NO)
Stairwell 2nd floor landing - hand swipe (Mixed with NO) Could these 2 be the same?
7 stairs from main floor to bedroom level - drip stains
Kitchen - fridge and drips on floor
Living room - stains
Tile in front entrance - drips
Stairs from Kitchen to Garage - stains
Stairwell walls - stains
Side Door - stains
Side Door to Front of Garage - drag stain
Front of Garage - large pool

NO
Spare Bedroom Bed - Drips
Closet Door - Hand swipe (mixed with KL)
Stairwell to Second Floor - Hand swipe (mixed with KL)

Blood TRransfer
Patio Doors - AL & KL
7 Stairs leading from Bedrooms to main Floor - KL
Wall Upstairs - KL & NO
Wall at top of Stair well - NO

It looks to me that there a major altercation in the master bedroom with AL, then in the door way to spare room with AL & KL. I think they were trying to protect NO as that is where is blood is found. These 2 grandparents gave all they could to fight off this monster but somehow he came through unscathed. MOO

Revised Edition adding No Outside house
WARNING- THIS IS A LIST OF THE PLACES EACH PERSON BLED

****UPSETTING TO READ****

AL
Master Bedroom - large stain on floor, low to floor splatter on drum, TV, air conditioner, night stand.
Spare Room Door Frame - Large stain
Hallway from master bedroom to top of stairs - drag mark
Upper level Stair - drip and saturation
4th step (Bedroom to main floor)
Stairs from Kitchen to garage - stains
Stairwell Walls - staining
Area beside side door - Transfer, drips and saturation
Garage - splatter indicating AL was near floor

KL
Spare Bedroom - Large staining on right side of mattress, box spring and wall near floor, splatter on head board (medium to low velocity)
Door frame to spare room - drip, saturation, splatter on wall outside of door near floor
Closet Door - hand swipe (Mixed with NO)
Stairwell 2nd floor landing - hand swipe (Mixed with NO) Could these 2 be the same?
7 stairs from main floor to bedroom level - drip stains
Kitchen - fridge and drips on floor
Living room - stains
Tile in front entrance - drips
Stairs from Kitchen to Garage - stains
Stairwell walls - stains
Side Door - stains
Side Door to Front of Garage - drag stain
Front of Garage - large pool

NO
Spare Bedroom Bed - Drips
Closet Door - Hand swipe (mixed with KL)
Stairwell to Second Floor - Hand swipe (mixed with KL)
Outside house by hose - stain
Outside house - NO & KL

Blood TRransfer
Patio Doors - AL & KL
7 Stairs leading from Bedrooms to main Floor - KL
Wall Upstairs - KL & NO
Wall at top of Stair well - NO

 

[JadeSLeuth]

Crown to call final witnesses at triple-murder trial of Douglas Garland Thursday
By Nancy Hixt

The prosecution is expected to call its final witnesses Thursday at the triple-murder trial of Douglas Garland.

That includes the officer who arrested Garland as he ran through a field near his parents’ property, as well as one of the officers who was in the air with the police HAWCS helicopter.

http://globalnews.ca/news/3235746/c...ple-murder-trial-of-douglas-garland-thursday/

This looks like it will be more on the arrest and thats it for the Crown. No journal, no video tape.

 

[CentralAlberta]

It's impossible to know one way or another but lack of blood loss is not necessarily proof that Nathan was taken alive. It is known that children are especially prone to death through head trauma, without there being any open wounds whatsoever.

True . . It seems he was still alive outside the house as there is blood there, not a substantial amount. Possibly another head injury was inflicted and he passed away there. My hope but my gut feeling says no. DG seems had planned this for months and NO was not part of that plan. I think he had to come up with another plan for NO and thus took him to the farm alive.

 

[JadeSLeuth]

I'm so glad the L house has been razed to the ground.

 

[otto]

I expect that the judge will need some time to prepare his instructions to the jury. It is critically important that he not make any errors in the instructions, so I don't think that he will risk doing it without putting in a lot of careful thought.

If they finish early, I think that the judge will dismiss the jury so that they can receive counselling. This has to be extremely traumatizing for the jury. They see all the evidence. They see the family suffering. They see the face of that evil monster day after day.

It's my understanding that counselling is available on site for the jury. I think this is why, on some particularly difficult days, the judge ended the proceedings early.

I doubt that counselling is available until after the verdict, as jurors could not receive counselling without discussing the details of the case. If the jurors discuss the facts of the case with anyone, even a therapist, that is a violation of the rights of the accused.

 

[otto]

There is no evidence that suggests NO was killed at the house. In fact there is less of his blood than the adults. No spatter from him and no pools of blood large enough to suggest death. Unless you saw tweets i didn't. I think NO was very much alive. I don't think he knew exactly what he was going to do with NO at the house. He brought him with him to decide back at the farm. That last part is jmo, but the blood evidence does not support him being killed at the house.

Blood dripping down the head board and pooling on the floor at that location is enough for me to believe that this is where Nathan died.

 

[CentralAlberta]

I can't imagine how the neighbors must feel. Questioning themselves why they didn't hear anything, or maybe if they did, why didn't they get up and check.

As to what DG was doing in the house for 1.5 hours, he may have taken a lot of time to drill those 2 holes in the lock. I can't see him standing there with the drill running full throttle drilling away. He must have done it in quick little spurts with listening seconds in between, all the while his adrenaline building.

 

[otto]

True . . It seems he was still alive outside the house as there is blood there, not a substantial amount. Possibly another head injury was inflicted and he passed away there. My hope but my gut feeling says no. DG seems had planned this for months and NO was not part of that plan. I think he had to come up with another plan for NO and thus took him to the farm alive.

Perhaps Garland washed his hands with the hose after carrying Nathan out of the house.