Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #26

[Spellbound]

I doubt that counselling is available until after the verdict, as jurors could not receive counselling without discussing the details of the case. If the jurors discuss the facts of the case with anyone, even a therapist, that is a violation of the rights of the accused.

I thought the same, otto. But there is a new program that covers counseling for jurors. I am not sure I am understanding correctly, but I do believe it allows for counseling support during the trial now.

The second bullet point below was bolded/colored by me, but speaks to our question.
See: https://news.ontario.ca/mag/en/2017/01/ontario-launches-free-counselling-program-for-jurors.html

[h=3]Ontario Launches Free Counselling Program for Jurors[/h][h=4]New Program Providing Accessible and Confidential Supports[/h]January 31, 2017 2:00 P.M.Ministry of the Attorney General

Quick Facts

• Jurors who have completed jury service can call 1-844-JUROR-ON (1-844-587-6766) to find out how to access the program.

• At any time during a trial or inquest, a juror can request counselling supports by making their concerns known to the judge or coroner.

• Before the Juror Support Program was established, the province covered the costs of counselling services to jurors by order of a judge.

• When requesting counselling, jurors will need to provide the location of the court where their jury trial or inquest took place, the start and end date of the trial/inquest and the name of the case or inquest.

• Participants will initially receive up to four one-hour counselling sessions. Jurors who feel they need additional counselling may be provided with up to four more sessions free of charge.

 

[otto]

It doesn't matter from a legal/conviction/sentencing standpoint. At the house or at the farm - still 1st degree. And again - the medical examiner stated they could have been alive when they left that house. She is more knowledgeable than you are about this.

The ME said they may have been alive when they left the house, and they may not have been alive. That tells us nothing, and there is no reason to assume one over the other. Other evidence has to be relied on to understand whether they were alive or not after leaving blood pools throughout the house and outside the house.

Given the history of the Office of the ME in Alberta over the last several years, there is no reason to assume that this ME is any more qualified than the last.

 

[otto]

Ina Sidhu ‏@CTVInaSidhu
a lot of blood on the R side of bed in spare room Arns says impact pattern of blood was on wall behind headboard too

Ina Sidhu ‏@CTVInaSidhu
Blood drip stains more in the centre of the bed of spare bedroom - matched DNA for Nathan O'Brien #garland

Ina Sidhu ‏@CTVInaSidhu
The heavy blood saturation stains on the bed of spare bedroom were matched to Kathy Liknes #Garland

Ina Sidhu ‏@CTVInaSidhu
Arns: My opinion "Kathy was on the floor when these stains were made" - referring to heavy blood stains on mattress/floor near headboard

I know I read that there was pooling as well ... no time to look for that now.

 

[JadeSLeuth]

[video=twitter;829698705057947648]https://twitter.com/NancyHixt/status/829698705057947648[/video]

 

[JadeSLeuth]

[video=twitter;829706698239725569]https://twitter.com/metrocalgary/status/829706698239725569[/video]

 

[otto]

I thought the same, otto. But there is a new program that covers counseling for jurors. I am not sure I am understanding correctly, but I do believe it allows for counseling support during the trial now.

The second bullet point below was bolded/colored by me, but speaks to our question.
See: https://news.ontario.ca/mag/en/2017/01/ontario-launches-free-counselling-program-for-jurors.html

[h=3]Ontario Launches Free Counselling Program for Jurors[/h][h=4]New Program Providing Accessible and Confidential Supports[/h]January 31, 2017 2:00 P.M.Ministry of the Attorney General

Quick Facts

• Jurors who have completed jury service can call 1-844-JUROR-ON (1-844-587-6766) to find out how to access the program.

• At any time during a trial or inquest, a juror can request counselling supports by making their concerns known to the judge or coroner.

• Before the Juror Support Program was established, the province covered the costs of counselling services to jurors by order of a judge.

• When requesting counselling, jurors will need to provide the location of the court where their jury trial or inquest took place, the start and end date of the trial/inquest and the name of the case or inquest.

• Participants will initially receive up to four one-hour counselling sessions. Jurors who feel they need additional counselling may be provided with up to four more sessions free of charge.

Thanks. Making a request for counselling and letting the Judge know is different from discussing the case with a therapist during trial. In this case, the Judge has already said that counselling will be available to all jurors after the trial.

 

[Spellbound]

Adding a couple links to info on how the new program for traumatized jurors came to be:

The program
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-juror-support-program-1.3839289

A former juror's perspective
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/jury-murder-trials-justice-court-ontario-ptsd-trauma-1.3796520


a Juror suicide after trial
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...-more-caution-in-trials-with-graphic-evidence

 

[dogmatica]

What do we think of the KL/NO handprints near/ in (?) the closet? Did she try to hide him?

Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk

Tragically and heartbreakingly, it seems Kathy and Nathan were maybe holding each other - Kathy holding nathan to try and protect him, after they had both been injured. Maybe trying to comfort him, and that's how their blood was mixed. I can just picture her trying to protect him with her body. God, that's wrenching.

 

[dogmatica]

If it makes no difference where they died, why is the prosecution so determined to claim that they died at the acreage?

Because that's what they believe happened and they want the jury to know what happened. They don't leave out crucial parts of a story simply because it won't change the verdict. It's their job to paint a complete picture of what occurred.

 

[MistyWaters]

If it makes no difference where they died, why is the prosecution so determined to claim that they died at the acreage?

It's a good Prosecution strategy because it's supported by evidence? Garland's intent appears to be that his victims be taken alive back to the acreage with the end result being the bodies were incinerated. They've introduced evidence to prove the victims were stalked, then attacked while sleeping, moved in the truck box to the acreage and then incinerated.

Testimony indeed supports they may have been alive and no expert witness has testified any of 3 died at the scene regardless of our personal opinions - so the Prosecution's theory flows with the evidence that's been presented.

The jury won't be asked to deliberate the prosecution's theory. They'll be given instructions from the judge as to elements of the various levels convictions. First Degree murder is not only death takes place in the course of kidnapping, but also murder with premeditation - causing death that is planned and deliberate - regardless of where death occurs. The overload of evidence strongly indicates Garland planned to cause death to Alvin and Kathy. Once he noticed the presence of the child, it would be easy to conclude the same intent.

All just my opinion....

 

[matou]

Sorry if this was already mentioned r.e. DG transporting the bodies around. We know there are drag marks at the home. What if he used some of the straps he ordered and used the hogtie method to lift them over his back and move them into the truck and around on the farm (I haven't heard of a wheelbarrow in the case). Straps burned after. Just a thought.

 

[dogmatica]

Charges for Nathan were originally 2nd degree. Perhaps the blood on the headboard and blood pool on the floor led prosecutors to assume that he was deliberately killed and that led to upgrading the charges. That is, it could be considered an accident until that evidence was understood ... as the dripping blood suggests a deliberate assault on Nathan.

Again - they do not need to prove the assault on Nathan was deliberate or that he intended to kill Nathan. All they need to prove is that he was killed during a kidnapping or whilst being unlawfully confined to secure a 1st degree murder conviction.

 

[PrincessButtercup]

Adding a couple links to info on how the new program for traumatized jurors came to be:

The program
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-juror-support-program-1.3839289

A former juror's perspective
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/jury-murder-trials-justice-court-ontario-ptsd-trauma-1.3796520


a Juror suicide after trial
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...-more-caution-in-trials-with-graphic-evidence

I hope they have something like this for them in Alberta.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

 

[dogmatica]

The ME said they may have been alive when they left the house, and they may not have been alive. That tells us nothing, and there is no reason to assume one over the other. Other evidence has to be relied on to understand whether they were alive or not after leaving blood pools throughout the house and outside the house.

Given the history of the Office of the ME in Alberta over the last several years, there is no reason to assume that this ME is any more qualified than the last.

It does not tell us nothing. It tells us they could have been alive when they left. It does NOT conclusively tell us they were dead at the house - that IS telling us something.

<modsnip>

 

[deugirtni]

......

I'm not sure if, it has been dealt with in court but we've not heard about it or if it's yet to be discussed but, i've been thinking about the Video tape found with the hard drive in the rafters.

I wondered if maybe it was insignificant but, if so, why was it hidden? And mentioned in court?

RSBM

Can someone post reference to the hidden videotape found with the harddrive in the rafters of the G basement please? I can't remember that, and I wasn't able to locate testimony about it on Day 9 when the hard drive was being discussed. TY!

 

[dogmatica]

There is no direct evidence that proves they were deceased at the house. The Crown has proven it is possible they were alive when they left the house. If the jury believes they were alive when they left that house - that is kidnapping. If the jury chooses to believe they died in the house - with them being dragged all over the place and the fact he was in the house for that length of time - that's unlawful confinement. Either scenario renders a conviction of 1st degree murder. That doesn't mean that what actually happened isn't important.

 

[nettie_82]

RSBM

Can someone post reference to the hidden videotape found with the harddrive in the rafters of the G basement please? I can't remember that, and I wasn't able to locate testimony about it on Day 9 when the hard drive was being discussed. TY!

From this link:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...e-murder-liknes-nathan-obrien-day-7-1.3949883


Items found in the Garland basement:
Book - Be*Your Own Undertaker:*How to Dispose of a Dead Body.
Book -*Silent Death.
Computer hard drive hidden in rafters.
Whips.
Straitjacket.
36 tubes of dental anesthetic.*
VHS tape dated 2014/07/07 and titled 'News, unsolved homicides."
Tyvek suit almost identical to ones used by forensic examiners plus booties and facemasks.*
8 pairs of women's shoes, size 13.
2 blonde women's wigs.
Adult diaper +*eBay receipt.

 

[Slebby]

I was expecting the Crown to introduce evidence in this respect but it seems they won't be.

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Maybe they will tie it together in closing?


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[deugirtni]

I doubt that counselling is available until after the verdict, as jurors could not receive counselling without discussing the details of the case. If the jurors discuss the facts of the case with anyone, even a therapist, that is a violation of the rights of the accused.

Tweets from Day#1

Kevin Martin-Justice Gates urges jurors to take advantage of counselling services available for them during or after the #Garland trial.

Valerie Fortney-Judge says counselling will be available to jurors during or after #garland trial

 

[olivebpa1]

Tweets from Day#1

Kevin Martin-Justice Gates urges jurors to take advantage of counselling services available for them during or after the #Garland trial.

Valerie Fortney-Judge says counselling will be available to jurors during or after #garland trial

Well that settles that debate. I for one am glad the courts have taken steps to ensure the jurors are taken care of during and after a trial. Especially a trial like this which is so disturbing.