Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 June 2014 - #9

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I remember that photo as well, and don't laugh, but I even went to the mirror to see how my elbow looks in that position...Ummm, I can't tell if it's a normal elbow or ezema or what in that photo. There's one that looks like scratches on his arms as well. But, working on a farm, wouldn't be uncommon, IMO. I often have scratches and bruises and don't even remember how I got them.
 
Sodium hydroxide perhaps aka lye? One of the chemicals used for resomation. “Resomation” is the process of disposing of human corpses through alkaline hydrolysis, which occurs when the body is sealed inside a vault-like tube filled with water and lye and steam-heated to 300 degrees. Three hours later, some powdery bone fragments and 200 gallons of fluid are all that remains.

Yes, it's because of lye that I've been wondering what type of sodium .. because his P2 listing is on a China site wrt sodium hypochlorite (basically bleach, not lye). Many types of sodium, also sodium cyanide ... just can't figure out why P2 says just "sodium".
 
Absolutely. I'm a former crime reporter myself and also have a very grisly theory which you are no doubt able to piece together from my last few comments :( I so badly want to be proven wrong.

Sadly I'm on the same page with the more grisly theories :(
 
Well, I can't handle thinking about that aspect right now. I mean...I just can't. They need to be found!!!! Perp needs to start talking!!!!

As for who he interacted with, I guess it would depend on his mental health after serving time. Did he ever hold a public job after that? Or was the farm his job? Was he getting a disability? It's possible to remain on the farm, have bulk supplies delivered there, have gas delivered there, etc. Depending on how much they canned or froze, might not have been a huge grocery need. I didn't notice any livestock on the farm. So it must be for raising grains, crops, etc. Though sometimes farmers 'barter' or they'll have someone else raise the livestock. No idea in this case though. So much unknown.
 
Does the T-shirt read Feel the Heat? If so lol


Don't know, but I love your avatar!!! I have two potbelly piglets that look like those! Sooooo cute!!!! They give me plenty of laughter each day!
 
So you understand.... There is clearly more to the reasons LE are not providing more info, other than protecting the integrity of the case. I have a feeling that the specifics on how the bodies were murdered, processed and disposed, is too graphic and unsettling.

Agreed. My husband said it a few days before Garland was re-arrested and it was like a lightbulb went off over my head. As you said, the tight lipped nature of CPS is telling to me. You hear of any murder case, and they always say "the victim was stabbed, shot, beaten.. (use whatever verb fits)". And although there are no bodies here, the police have enough evidence to lay first degree murder charges. FIRST. No small feat when there aren't any bodies and definitive evidence.
I strongly feel that there are no bodies to be found. I just hope that I am wrong so that a) there is closure for this poor family and b) DG gets nailed to the wall.
 
I do remember seeing a pen, but not sure if it was for a dog, a pig or what!! Just remember seeing it on a farm photo.
 
Absolutely. I'm a former crime reporter myself and also have a very grisly theory which you are no doubt able to piece together from my last few comments :( I so badly want to be proven wrong.

I am a former reporter, too, and have been thinking along the same lines. I keep comparing the disposal of the bodies to the Pickton case.
 

Thank you! I believe it's this picture, or a very similar one, but somehow the cuffs and hands were blown up more in the pic posted. In this one there's a shadow on his right elbow area, which wasn't noticeable in the pic posted, but might account for what I thought might be bruising or even some discolouration.
 
It's human nature to want the outcome to be positive, but in my experience from my decades of crime reporting and family in LE, the Crown would not risk going ahead with murder charges unless they had solid evidence that the victims are in fact deceased. IMO, they have more than they need but due to the high profile nature of this case, they only moved ahead after their evidence was confirmed. I suspect they knew the outcome was bad on the very first day.

In my experience, LE will give false leads to the media in an attempt to solicit more information and/or keep a suspect in the dark, and off centre. IMO, we may have incorrect information as to many aspects of this case.

I have my own theory on what happened based on my experience, but it may be too graphic and gruesome. Sadly, I see the pieces fitting differently.
My bold

Following on from your statement now in bold. I think that you're sadly right. What the cops saw, JO saw first, and what they may have surmised, she may also have thought possible. That poor woman, IMO, opened the door into hell that morning. I think she hung onto that new little t-shirt, even during the press conference, because if she let go it would mean she would never give it to him. He'd never wear it. It would never "smell like Nathan". But, if she held on, there was a chance, the smallest chance that he'd come home. So she clung to the shirt, because it was her hope. And her words, which some criticized as "odd", were a prayer that her baby and her mother would still be together wherever they now were while at the same time following LE directions as to what could and could not be said. Lord knows, hanging onto a little T-shirt that she knew could well be the last thing she'd ever buy her little boy, was a very human thing to do.

JMO, but I think that the original alerts that said that Nathan might be with his grandfather, were written that way because if Nathan was alive and with an abductor who was, for instance, in his fifties, most people would assume that he was a little boy on an outing with his grandfather. I think it was a hope, perhaps futile but still a hope, that an abductor might be moved to drop off that sweet, polite, religious little boy in some safe harbour while he made a run to save himself in another place, under another name.

The cruelty displayed by the alleged perpetrator in this case is mind-numbing. The repercussions are going to continue for lifetimes, for all the members of the extended O'Brien and Liknes families, for the first-responders, for LE and their partners, for the community. I think this is going to go way beyond grief counseling for some of these people. In light of the recent tragedy in Winnipeg, apparently triggered by yet another psychologist believing his patient is no threat to society, I think that an effort should be made by City of Calgary to have services in place for the treatment of PTSD for everyone involved. It will be ongoing, and there will be a cost involved, but if money is available for treating the perpetrators of crimes within the prison system, surely there should be money made available for treating those people who suffered because of those crimes, for the people who had the difficult task of investigating and analyzing the crimes, and for the people who had to deal with all the aspects of cleaning and reconstruction following the crimes.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...ommits_suicide_years_after_bus_beheading.html
 
Agreed. My husband said it a few days before Garland was re-arrested and it was like a lightbulb went off over my head. As you said, the tight lipped nature of CPS is telling to me. You hear of any murder case, and they always say "the victim was stabbed, shot, beaten.. (use whatever verb fits)". And although there are no bodies here, the police have enough evidence to lay first degree murder charges. FIRST. No small feat when there aren't any bodies and definitive evidence.
I strongly feel that there are no bodies to be found. I just hope that I am wrong so that a) there is closure for this poor family and b) DG gets nailed to the wall.

tHERE ARE NO BODIES. For the medical examiner To determine a cause of death, they need a body to perform a post mortem on. Perhaps most murder cases become apparent because they find the victim and reporting is done on that basis.
This case is different in that it began as a missing persons case.
While someone was apparently hurt from what they found in the house, they were hopeful that 2, maybe 3 people were still alive. There was nothing other to report.
I'm curious as to what evidence indicates that these 3 people are deceased however when that is known there'll still at best only be clues as to how murder occurred.
 
I still think they should water board DG to make him talk.

If any case warrants such treatment, it's this one!!!


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I have no experience or knowledge of LE procedure. Can anyone advise whether it is procedure that the family would be informed of all the evidence that relates to a crime that the LE is aware of or do they have to wait until trail for details. May be a stupid question.

Yes and no. It depends on the case. They would probably have much more info than we do but in my experience, the police would probably 'couch' sensitive info.
 
O
Agreed. My husband said it a few days before Garland was re-arrested and it was like a lightbulb went off over my head. As you said, the tight lipped nature of CPS is telling to me. You hear of any murder case, and they always say "the victim was stabbed, shot, beaten.. (use whatever verb fits)". And although there are no bodies here, the police have enough evidence to lay first degree murder charges. FIRST. No small feat when there aren't any bodies and definitive evidence.
I strongly feel that there are no bodies to be found. I just hope that I am wrong so that a) there is closure for this poor family and b) DG gets nailed to the wall.

Ever since they laid the murder charges I have been thinking there are no "bodies" left as well. I just haven't been able to bring myself to write that. I also think that is partly why they called the public searches off... They don't want anyone to find the grisly remains (or whatever is left). Also from some cases recently in my home town I have come to realize what the police releases to the media isn't always the true facts... There was a stabbing that happened her a few months ago, a week into the investigation it was released that it was self inflicted. This mad no sense because it was a well known fact that they had brought in a dog to help search for the weapon... I now know from an acquaintance what really happened. I can understand in a case like this them being unable to release much info. I have also wondered (because of how much attention this case has) how they will find a jury that is bias...???

Also just so u know we r once again under tornado/hail warnings...
 
tHERE ARE NO BODIES. For the medical examiner To determine a cause of death, they need a body to perform a post mortem on. Perhaps most murder cases become apparent because they find the victim and reporting is done on that basis.
This case is different in that it began as a missing persons case.
While someone was apparently hurt from what they found in the house, they were hopeful that 2, maybe 3 people were still alive. There was nothing other to report.
I'm curious as to what evidence indicates that these 3 people are deceased however when that is known there'll still at best only be clues as to how murder occurred.

IMO, saying that they are hopeful was because even though they knew from the crime scene and their own experience that this was a homicide, they didn't have definitive proof to make a statement to that end. I've had family who were major crimes detectives and their instincts at the onset of arriving to a crime scene were pretty close to spot on.
 
Yes and no. It depends on the case. They would probably have much more info than we do but in my experience, the police would probably 'couch' sensitive info.

I think the prosecutor meets with the family to discuss the status of the investigation. Everyone in the family will be interviewed by the prosecutor. The family might have more information about the conclusions of the medical examiner. The family would have been informed of the arrest and the conclusion that the victims were deceased prior to that information being released to the media. I don't think the family would be given information that could compromised the integrity of the investigation.
 
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Ever since they laid the murder charges I have been thinking there are no "bodies" left as well. I just haven't been able to bring myself to write that. I also think that is partly why they called the public searches off... They don't want anyone to find the grisly remains (or whatever is left). Also from some cases recently in my home town I have come to realize what the police releases to the media isn't always the true facts... There was a stabbing that happened her a few months ago, a week into the investigation it was released that it was self inflicted. This mad no sense because it was a well known fact that they had brought in a dog to help search for the weapon... I now know from an acquaintance what really happened. I can understand in a case like this them being unable to release much info. I have also wondered (because of how much attention this case has) how they will find a jury that is bias...???

Also just so u know we r once again under tornado/hail warnings...

I think that public searches of private property were called off because strangers wandering around private property presents safety risks for the property owners. Additionally, police have said that they have a good idea of where they want to search. They're not going to release that information to the general public, so there's really no reason for people to organize searches in random fields.

There are more than a million people in Calgary, and most of them are going about their business without much interest in criminal activities. I can't see how it could be a problem to find 12-18 people that are not paying attention to these murders.
 
Agreed. My husband said it a few days before Garland was re-arrested and it was like a lightbulb went off over my head. As you said, the tight lipped nature of CPS is telling to me. You hear of any murder case, and they always say "the victim was stabbed, shot, beaten.. (use whatever verb fits)". And although there are no bodies here, the police have enough evidence to lay first degree murder charges. FIRST. No small feat when there aren't any bodies and definitive evidence.
I strongly feel that there are no bodies to be found. I just hope that I am wrong so that a) there is closure for this poor family and b) DG gets nailed to the wall.

The medical examiner was at the house the day the victims were reported missing. The only reason for the medical examiner to be there is if there was blood, or evidence related to humans, such as tissue, that would be related to death. If there was enough blood to indicate "medical distress", it's possible that there was enough blood from each victim to conclude that they are now deceased. I don't think there's any reason to assume that the bodies will never be located.
 
I personally have never seen such a huge search effort anywhere in Canada. There is such a huge outcry from the public that this case has become monumental. It's like all of Canada needs closure on this horrible crime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Olson

Parents everywhere were terrified of this man, for good reason. It was a terrible time in British Columbia and the ensuing court case and eventual 'bargain' ( $10,000 for each victim) was despicable. He rotted in jail until his death. Good riddance.
 
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