CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #3

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Early on, I thought perhaps PK & Audrey had something going on the side. It's certainly not unheard of.Me, too!

After reading and re-reading what he has shared, I detected no warmth in his various descriptions of their relationship. In fact, I get the impression that their friendship was somewhat one-sided. That is, Audrey liked & trusted him enough to invite him into her home ( link ) and even give him the code to her garage (link). I would not say however that his feelings were reciprocal. He characterizes her as "talking too much" ( link ) and being demanding ( link ). By PK's own words, she was a "high maintenance" friend. Otherwise put. She saw him as a friend. He saw her as a chore.Oh, I'd missed that observation.

Moreover, if he is to be believed,A huge "IF" it almost sounds as if she took him for granted (i.e., make this spaghetti sauce, with this exact ingredients, bake this cake, etc). Though, her way of showing appreciation may have been letting him into her home, giving him the code to her garage, talking his ear off, etcetera. Yet, those seemed to be primarily done in the context of what he could do for her... help her clean out her house ( link ), being able to access tools if she was away ( link ), be a sounding board...

Now, add to this mix that PK and Audrey's relationship began when he was young, just starting out. Still prolly a tad unsure of himself. Easy to order around... easy to be told what to do... These sort of relationship dynamics simply do not change. Regardless of how old, successful, etc, that PK got Audrey would continue to view him as "her young man" ( link )... a kid who didn't know much. Someone who still needed her mentoring... her tutelage... Yet, 5 years had passed, he had grown, he was married and beginning a family, he was enrolled in the Masters program, and at the beginning of a promising career that commands respect within the field of engineering. And he likely got that respect. That is, from everyone other than Audrey who instructed him to have his wife bake her a cake for Christmas.

So, no. I no longer think he and Audrey had any sort of "thing" going.Same here! In fact, I discarded that view some time ago. Yet I was still puzzled about their relationship. The above is my shot at trying to unpuzzle it. Feel free to take what you want, read between the lines, and heave the rest.

My thoughts are contained within the post.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Copied from Sidekick:

I did a search on FB for both MK and PK. Just to let you know they are on there and there is info on their 'info' page about where they work. Have a peek if you're interested. Both brothers have each other on their page of friends. If you want I can add the links, I am a bit hesitant mind you.


Believe it or not, I don't do facebook. I'd like to be able to read anything from either one of them which would help put this puzzle together. If not, no need to copy anything for me!!

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Copied from Mia:

He is young.
He lives close by.
Audrey felt comfortable enough with him to let him into her home and garage, and she in fact even gave him the key code to her garage, I believe.
Audrey felt comfortable and safe around PK, and that could be why she locked the dogs up while/IF he was there - for HIS comfort and safety.

Motive? There could be many...
PK could have been fixated/obsessed with her, either sexually or intellectually or mentally.
I know a few people put forth the academic plagiarism theory, where Audrey discovers PK plagiarized parts of the paper he gave her, and threatened to report him to the board.
Perhaps PK had the impression he was included in Audrey's will; heck, maybe he even was included at one time and then for some reason Audrey changed it. I always found it odd that Audrey left her whole estate to the woman neighbor (whose name escapes me at the moment) who is probably well-settled and financially fine, and whom she didn't seem to be as close to as PK, as opposed to leaving it to PK and his new bride, a young couple just getting started, likely with massive student loan debts, who could really need that money to begin a life together. That's why I think maybe PK was included at one time, then something happened (any ideas, anyone?) and Audrey changed it to only include the neighbor lady. But she hadn't told PK this yet, or maybe they had resolved whatever issue instigated him getting thrown off the will, and she was thinking of putting him back on it. Who knows? This is ALL SPECULATION, mind you, although I do wish there was a way we could find out if and what changes were put forth on that will over the last five years or so.


Thanks for these thoughts. I also wonder why PK came here and I wonder if it's he (or LE) who is lurking on this thread almost constantly, daily!

I do wish PK would post here again to help clear himself from any/all suspicions.

 

[libyana]

I to wondered why PK came here. I pretty much expect LE to be all over any forums and I am surprised they let him.I thought maybe he was put there to entrap the perp who might come here also. I found him to be a bit gushy for a guy,especially an engineering type ,but I thought hey maybe all young people are like that.

 

[shadowraiths]

Under the pressure of all his work and changes, I wonder if it was some comment AG made about the cake or PK's wife that might have been the final straw.

Quite possible. There is another important aspect I forgot to touch upon. And that is dual relationships. There is a reason dual relationships are considered unethical within most professional organizations such as the APA, etc. In part has to do with the fiduciary contract. But it also has to do with emotional dynamics and expectations.

Within the context of this case, Audrey hired PK. He was the "handyman." She was his "boss." So being told what to do would be standard. Where the dual relationship comes in, is the friend aspect. Am not sure whether that is real or a result of the discussion, here. In the beginning, people discussed the "handyman." A clear line was drawn. He was the guy hired by Audrey to do various odd jobs. And yet, much of what he has offered places their relationship squarely in the context of a friendship (i.e., instead of a present, bake me a cake, being included on her daily email distro, etc). Interestingly, or perhaps not so, PK starts out refering to Audrey as "bary" ( link ), then AG ( link ), and then Audrey ( link ). Guess what I'm saying, as an afterthought... in the end for all any of us know, they weren't actually friends and PK was simply portraying the friendship angle to both us and the media, to diminish the inquisitive heat. Anyway, just a thought.

And finally, I find this statement ( link ) of his to be rather curious:

To be completely honest with you guys... I was really shocked as I started to get a sense of how gruesome LE perceived this crime to be. ​

What type of individual would shrug off a crime scene that a seasoned homicide detective characterizes as the most gruesome murder scene he has encountered in his career?

 

[libyana]

And say that they perceived it that way, not him.

 

[nicgumshoe]

Hi Everyone!
I did a search on FB for both MK and PK. Just to let you know they are on there and there is info on their 'info' page about where they work. Have a peek if you're interested. Both brothers have each other on their page of friends. If you want I can add the links, I am a bit hesitant mind you.

SK.

Welcome to the forum!

It's funny that PK's facebook page presents to us a very different image of him: sitting against a wall, beside a woman in a short dress, who we only see from the waist down.

While MK appears on his page, I can't see any sign of the AK who we thought might also be a brother (not to be confused with his wife, AK).

 

[Sillybilly]

PK does have 2 brothers (AK who got his PhD in July 2010 and is a Dr, and MK who is the mechanical, custom car buff ). As they have not been named in the MSM, I would be hesitant to post links that would confirm that information.

Interesting that PK's email addy is shown as the domain registry contact for his brother's auto-related company website that, according to ipage, appears to have been registered Dec 23 2010 ("under development").

ETA: Further checking with polo domains shows the above company Registrar as PJK using what seems to be his wife's parents' address in Stoney Creek.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Quoted from shadowraiths:

Guess what I'm saying, as an afterthought... in the end for all any of us know, they weren't actually friends and PK was simply portraying the friendship angle to both us and the media, to diminish the inquisitive heat. Anyway, just a thought.

And finally, I find this statement (
link
link ) of his to be rather curious:

To be completely honest with you guys... I was really shocked as I started to get a sense of how gruesome LE perceived this crime to be. ]

What type of individual would shrug off a crime scene that a seasoned homicide detective characterizes as the most gruesome murder scene he has encountered in his career?


Agree with these thoughts. So, IF they weren't 'true friends' I cannot see him having the code to the garage door.

Curious, to say the least.

 

[nicgumshoe]

So, IF they weren't 'true friends' I cannot see him having the code to the garage door.

Curious, to say the least.

My guess would be, from her position of dominance in the relationship, she felt they were friends to some degree, and that he (the student) would never rebel against her (the wise teacher). ie: she didn't perceive the negative aspects of the relationship.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

My guess would be, from her position of dominance in the relationship, she felt they were friends to some degree, and that he (the student) would never rebel against her (the wise teacher). ie: she didn't perceive the negative aspects of the relationship.

But don't forget that AG was a teacher for many, many years. She held the dominant position in the classroom, however I'm certain she encountered very bright students who pushed the boundaries - or at least, tried to do so.

For the life of me, I cannot understand this brilliant, older, dominant woman handing out the code to her garage to a handyman, a youngster in her eyes, someone not at her level of age, intellect, gender, everything.

For me, the idea of this science teacher handing out a code to her precious Camaro's 'home' is not feasible. Maybe it's just me..........:crazy:

 

[nicgumshoe]

But don't forget that AG was a teacher for many, many years. She held the dominant position in the classroom, however I'm certain she encountered very bright students who pushed the boundaries - or at least, tried to do so.

For the life of me, I cannot understand this brilliant, older, dominant woman handing out the code to her garage to a handyman, a youngster in her eyes, someone not at her level of age, intellect, gender, everything.

For me, the idea of this science teacher handing out a code to her precious Camaro's 'home' is not feasible. Maybe it's just me..........:crazy:

I suppose. But I think she would have considered this more of a mentor/student relationship different from a normal school t/s one. In school, students often act out due to peer pressure. Outside of it, the audience is gone. Plus she probably felt she knew him a little more.

I know a few folks who have let workers into their homes, without being there to monitor. It's not wise but people do it.

Also, maybe she thought she could always change the code in the future, if need be...and lock him out. She didn't give him the key to her house....at least hopefully not!

 

[Woodland]

I can see AG giving her garage code to PK after 2 or 3 years of him working around the house for her. There may have been times where PK could break away from his schedule to do some work but she couldn't be there. I think some give and take would have come up from time to time.

As nicgumshoe points out, AG could have changed the code at any time if she became uncomfortable.

Excellent points made by Shawdowraith - I like how you are able to pick up on what might seem a passing comment to others. Do you think it's possible that PK played a minor role to someone else?

 

[nicgumshoe]

I can see AG giving her garage code to PK after 2 or 3 years of him working around the house for her. There may have been times where PK could break away from his schedule to do some work but she couldn't be there. I think some give and take would have come up from time to time.

As nicgumshoe points out, AG could have changed the code at any time if she became uncomfortable.

Excellent points made by Shawdowraith - I like how you are able to pick up on what might seem a passing comment to others. Do you think it's possible that PK played a minor role to someone else?

For sure, I agree she would have felt more secure over time.

ditto that on Shawdowraith - like forensic-linguistics or something. It opens up another dimension. If I were the killer I'd be shaking in my boots when I saw significant stuff coming from my simple phrases.

 

[nicgumshoe]

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but this seems to be another inconsistency:

Basically in one paragraph, PK said this about AG smoking and the garage,

"Audrey certainly would smoke in her home but she would usually put the door up if she was going to smoke in the garage

- she would definitely smoke in the garage with the door up and (I believe, though I never saw her / asked about it) that she would smoke inside sometimes

- I can't think of a single time when I ever saw the garage door open with AG inside. She was extremely diligent at keeping it closed"

Audrey Gleave, retired teacher, viciously murdered in home, Ancaster Ontario, #2 - Page 24 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


The bold parts seem to be at odds.

Also, he says she would certainly smoke in her home, but then says..."(I believe, though I never saw her / asked about it) that she would smoke inside sometimes"

Does "inside" refer to the garage or the home? If it's the home then it seems like 2 inconsistencies in one blurb.

 

[Hazel]

Nic, when PK said:

I can't think of a single time when I ever saw the garage door open with AG inside. He means he never saw AG inside her home while the garage door(s) were open.

I remember asking time and time again about Audrey's habits regarding her smoking. One of my questions was about ashtrays inside her home (never got an answer though). If she lived alone and had no children, I imagine she could just smoke inside, perhaps open a window slightly or stand by the kitchen fan?

I kept asking because I personally cannot imagine her opening the garage door just to let the smoke out, every single time she wanted to have a cigarette. In summer time I would be thinking of bats, mosquitos, racoons, skunks!, and even bears and letting all that cold air in during the winter.

...unless she had company or had the dogs out or it was raining; otherwise, it would make more sense to just go out any of the many doors/sliding doors, so she could go back in really quick in case she heard someone approaching or noticed some stranger.
JMO.

 

[nicgumshoe]

Nic, when PK said:

I can't think of a single time when I ever saw the garage door open with AG inside. He means he never saw AG inside her home while the garage door(s) were open.

I remember asking time and time again about Audrey's habits regarding her smoking. One of my questions was about ashtrays inside her home (never got an answer though). If she lived alone and had no children, I imagine she could just smoke inside, perhaps open a window slightly or stand by the kitchen fan?

I kept asking because I personally cannot imagine her opening the garage door just to let the smoke out, every single time she wanted to have a cigarette. In summer time I would be thinking of bats, mosquitos, racoons, skunks!, and even bears and letting all that cold air in during the winter.

...unless she had company or had the dogs out or it was raining; otherwise, it would make more sense to just go out any of the many doors/sliding doors, so she could go back in really quick in case she heard someone approaching or noticed some stranger.
JMO.

Thanks! Hazel,

I can see how I misread that, about AG not leaving the garage open while she was inside the house. But I still wonder about,

"Audrey certainly would smoke in her home but she would usually put the door up if she was going to smoke in the garage

- she would definitely smoke in the garage with the door up and (I believe, though I never saw her / asked about it) that she would smoke inside sometimes"

Just wondering if PK wrote that, and then forgot to edit out one version about smoking inside the house.

I guess by that he might mean, he never her saw/asked her about smoking inside (the garage with the door down?).

When I smoked, I'd do exactly as you said. It would be quickly outside a door or sliding doors, unless the weather was really bad...then it was the garage. Or inside the house, blowing smoke out the window. If the dog was out at night, I'd smoke outside too.

Ok..forget it....I see it still means he suspects she might have smoked in the house with the garage door up...but never saw or asked about.

I'm a dunce. That was like some sort of paragraph from reasoning 101

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Quoted from PK on 9/21/2011:

Thank you again everyone for your continued efforts… you are all a huge blessing to me.
PK


I wish PK would return to help clear up our questions and suspicions. It would help him and us, I think.

 

[nicgumshoe]

Since we've been running PK through the mill a lot recently, anyone got an ideas on why it wouldn't/couldn't be him?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Since we've been running PK through the mill a lot recently, anyone got an ideas on why it wouldn't/couldn't be him?

Oh certainly:
1. He'd never harm a like-minded scientific friend.
2. He obviously was well-respected by AG herself, therefore the respect and decency would be reciprocated.
3. He's from a very Christian family and the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" would be ingrained from birth. Also, general goodness, kindness etc. would be part of his lifestyle.
4. He just happened to discover the body - that doesn't make one guilty.
5. He's co-operated with LE.
6. He hasn't fled the country/area.

That's the beginning of the list - please add to what I've missed.