CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #3

[dotr]

I was thinking about "the holiday season''and how stressful it can be sometimes.I once saw a perfectly delightful and dignified dinner turn ugly and violent after conversation (between two educated and sophisticated guests) turned to a very touchy subject ... religion..
The 'believer' and the 'nonbeliever', accomplished grown men , rolled on the ground by the dining table to the absolute astonishment of everyone trying to pull them apart.
Over the years it actually became an amusing story since the participants made up and eventually had a good laugh about it. Still, it is a conversation best avoided (imo) when people might have carving knives in hand, or songs about redemption are on the radio...

 

[LilyMacBloom]

Since we've been running PK through the mill a lot recently, anyone got an ideas on why it wouldn't/couldn't be him?

DNA...DNA...DNA?????? I've forgotten if there is or isn't any. When they dismissed DS his lawyer said something about DNA but then it seemed there seemed to be some denial if there was any so I'm not sure if there is DNA or not, anyone else remember?

 

[Kamille]

Since we've been running PK through the mill a lot recently, anyone got an ideas on why it wouldn't/couldn't be him?

Well I'm amazed at the great minds here coming up with all of these ideas and theories. PK would definiately be on the suspect list but did anyone see his car there that week prior to him finding AG? LE would have known by the scene that AG had been deceased for some time before he found her.

Since you've all done such a good job with PK, how about LV? The person who was known to have visited AG during the time in question to deliver soup. Perhaps she verbally made an arrangement to visit again the next day. The person who claimed she had never been inside the house she inherited and therefore would definitely require the dogs being locked up or crated for her visit if she entered the house that time. The person who considered AG a friend although she was unable to converse with her on AG's intellectual level. The person who sold all of AG's estate within a month of the house being released.

Someone mentioned something about wills. I'd love to know the activity regarding AG's will in the past 5-10 years as well. It astounds me that she wouldn't have left her estate to a charity or foundation.

MOO

 

[nicgumshoe]

PK had opportunity and supposedly was given the polygraph based on that.
Half+ of the people in AG's neighborhood probably had opportunity too. So why not test them all?

 

[nicgumshoe]

DNA...DNA...DNA?????? I've forgotten if there is or isn't any. When they dismissed DS his lawyer said something about DNA but then it seemed there seemed to be some denial if there was any so I'm not sure if there is DNA or not, anyone else remember?

I don't think they do have DNA...just other forensic evidence. At least I've never heard mention of them having it.

Maybe that indicates a more experienced killer who knows how to avoid leaving DNA behind.

 

[puppyraiser]

From the article re: key code for garage- "As close a friend as Phil was, of all the times he was in the house, she never served him coffee or watched TV with him. They would always chat on the same couch, just outside the kitchen. She would either shut Togi and Schatze in a large kennel crate she kept in the house, or urge them to be nice to Phil.

When he visited, Phil would push the number code on the keypad outside the automatic garage door, meet her in the garage, then chat either inside or out. That was the routine.

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/594717--audrey-s-story-continues

And re: DNA-"Now that the charges are dropped — after DNA evidence didn’t match Scott — they are weighing whether to launch a lawsuit, said lawyer Charles Spettigue."
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/544358--eccentric-doesn-t-equal-murderer

 

[colette]

They have DNA. They had to have tested PK, so since he's not in jail I'm guessing he's not a match.

 

[SideKick]

Copied from Sidekick:

I did a search on FB for both MK and PK. Just to let you know they are on there and there is info on their 'info' page about where they work. Have a peek if you're interested. Both brothers have each other on their page of friends. If you want I can add the links, I am a bit hesitant mind you.


Believe it or not, I don't do facebook. I'd like to be able to read anything from either one of them which would help put this puzzle together. If not, no need to copy anything for me!!

Hi NSU;
I believe it, no biggie. Because PK and MK and gang come here to comment I don't feel comfy at all as it intrudes on their privacy however, last night while scrolling I believe another poster did some snooping and wrote what I had seen on FB. Hope that helps you.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Well I'm amazed at the great minds here coming up with all of these ideas and theories. PK would definiately be on the suspect list but did anyone see his car there that week prior to him finding AG? LE would have known by the scene that AG had been deceased for some time before he found her.

Since you've all done such a good job with PK, how about LV? The person who was known to have visited AG during the time in question to deliver soup. Perhaps she verbally made an arrangement to visit again the next day. The person who claimed she had never been inside the house she inherited and therefore would definitely require the dogs being locked up or crated for her visit if she entered the house that time. The person who considered AG a friend although she was unable to converse with her on AG's intellectual level. The person who sold all of AG's estate within a month of the house being released.

Someone mentioned something about wills. I'd love to know the activity regarding AG's will in the past 5-10 years as well. It astounds me that she wouldn't have left her estate to a charity or foundation.

MOO

OK, so LV as a suspect - pros and cons:
1. We don't know if LE polygraphed her as well.
2. We know she was willed everything except the dogs. (That's 'normal' for me because I want to will my special jewellry (sp??) pieces to a female friend rather than to a family member. The remainder of our will goes to animal care groups. Our birds will be willed to their breeder.) Creepy topic!
3. I think females are less likely to murder people other than wives killing their male lovers and, too often, their children.
4. We haven't heard anything about LV's fingerprints.
5. LE haven't publically named her as a 'suspect'.

That's the best I can do right now. Anyone else able to add to my list......?

 

[nicgumshoe]

And re: DNA-"Now that the charges are dropped — after DNA evidence didn’t match Scott — they are weighing whether to launch a lawsuit, said lawyer Charles Spettigue."
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/544358--eccentric-doesn-t-equal-murderer

Thanks! Hadn't seen that "DNA" article before. It's weird, you'd think JW would have mentioned that in his 4 part story which came later.

Instead all that was mentioned was,

"Another officer said results returned from the Centre of Forensic Sciences did not match David Scott, and so the charges were dropped. He would not say what type of forensic testing had been done."

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/596949--audrey-s-case-gets-colder

Plus you'd think they would have got that testing done and freed DS a lot sooner. Maybe the DNA extraction from evidence took a long time.

I'm still a tad leery, since media reports are often way wrong.

 

[libyana]

I still keep coming back to serial killer because of the perverse violent nature of AG's death, the time it was done and possible similarities [we don't know ] to other murders and attacks. There maybe two serial killers, three is a stretch.

 

[dotr]

Posting this early days of the crime link because it indicates take car collision experts took the car and because of a few teensy details included. Imo, just because the investigation went in a different direction , does not mean to discount first impressions..in other words "no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater".
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/12/31/16718126.html
This was a stranger attack, perhaps the most frightening kind, done at the hands of a person or people who Gleave didn't even know, homicide Staff-Sgt. Steve Hrab said Friday.

It was just before 11 a.m. on Thursday - three days after police surmise Gleave was last heard from - that the body of the retired teacher was found by someone who had stopped by her Indian Trail house for "a regular visit," Hrab said.

According to neighbours, that someone was a young man who often helped the short-of-breath Gleave with odd jobs around her house.

"The friend found Audrey in the house, obviously dead, obviously the victim of a very horrific, vicious assault," Hrab said.

She had been sexually assaulted, stabbed several times and suffered other injuries that were examined during an autopsy Friday.

"Stranger, sexual component, vicious, vicious assault. It was something very bad," a tired and disturbed Hrab said. "The crime is horrendous."

About 20 officers, including the collision reconstruction and canine units, hit the ground around Gleave's house Friday searching for any clues that would lead them to the killer or killers.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

A few comments:

1. When did LE decide it was no longer a stranger attack as per the article posted by dotr?

2. It will be interesting this Christmas vacation to see who returns home from University and who does NOT come home for fear of being caught/questioned/etc. (I know, kids will take ski vacations, etc. and not come home. If that's the case, I feel that LE should check those kids out.)

3. Other than DLS and PK, do we have any info on who the other suspects are? Or, IF there are other suspects?

 

[nicgumshoe]

A few comments:

1. When did LE decide it was no longer a stranger attack as per the article posted by dotr?

2. It will be interesting this Christmas vacation to see who returns home from University and who does NOT come home for fear of being caught/questioned/etc. (I know, kids will take ski vacations, etc. and not come home. If that's the case, I feel that LE should check those kids out.)

3. Other than DLS and PK, do we have any info on who the other suspects are? Or, IF there are other suspects?

Not sure about #1 or #3, but I love #2. Great idea!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the subject of the DNA evidence, maybe LE only have DNA from the general garage area, which can be used to place a person there...but not necessarily be used to convict. PK's would probably have been in there from working, (and would be easily explainable), so they used the LD test with him.

 

[colette]

On the subject of the DNA evidence, maybe LE only have DNA from the general garage area, which can be used to place a person there...but not necessarily be used to convict. PK's would probably have been in there from working, (and would be easily explainable), so they used the LD test with him.

There might have been body fluids somewhere in the garage such as blood or semen. PK could have cut himself sometime in the garage and still be innocent.

I would think the DNA has to be on the body or clothes of the victim to exclude the homeless man, or some fresh looking blood trail or semen ect.

 

[Woodland]

Regarding AG's will, LV could have be the executrix but not necessarily have inherited the estate. Either way, LV would have had to probate the will, liquidate/dispose of belongings and distribute as per AG's wishes.

As far as I know, a probated will is eventually public knowledge due to the court proceeding. Is anyone able and knowledgeable enough to find this? I have seen wills attached to the sale of a home at the land registry office. Not a recent sale, but during genealogy searches. Not sure if the procedure has changed or not.

 

[Sillybilly]

Regarding AG's will, LV could have be the executrix but not necessarily have inherited the estate. Either way, LV would have had to probate the will, liquidate/dispose of belongings and distribute as per AG's wishes.

As far as I know, a probated will is eventually public knowledge due to the court proceeding. Is anyone able and knowledgeable enough to find this? I have seen wills attached to the sale of a home at the land registry office. Not a recent sale, but during genealogy searches. Not sure if the procedure has changed or not.

Sgt Hrab was the original source that LV was the executrix, and PK was our source re her being both the executrix and "sole beneficiary":

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Audrey Gleave, retired teacher, viciously murdered in home, Ancaster Ontario, #2

 

[Sillybilly]

There is conflicting information from Scott's lawyer as to whether or not LE has DNA:

from:
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/06/03/charge-dropped-in-killing-of-exteacher

Scott’s lawyer, Charles Spettigue, said police had no DNA.

“We’re been poring through mountains of disclosure ... and the police have been flailing about trying to find some evidence to theoretically carry on with this,” he said. “The simple reality is they never had any evidence. They have no DNA, they have no-nothing.”

 

[Kamille]

That was my impression, that they held DS until it became apparent that there was no concernable DNA to be found. He was released because "there wasn't enough evidence for a conviction" from what I understood. Not because they considered him to be innocent.

MOO

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

It's always been my thinking that DLS was LE's fall-guy to take the blame for AG's murder. He's different (God forbid!), he has psychiatric problems (God forbid!), he was found with a weapon (a knife which couldn't be tied to AG apparently), he frequented a lonely old barn (God forbid!).

He was an easy out for LE when under pressure to make a conviction.

No - our bad guy here, I think, is very normal looking, very young, very close, fairly well-educated and well- spoken, an 'every day' type of guy/gal. And that in itself no doubt is problematic for LE to nail him/her.:twocents: