CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #3

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Sgt Hrab was the original source that LV was the executrix, and PK was our source re her being both the executrix and "sole beneficiary":

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Audrey Gleave, retired teacher, viciously murdered in home, Ancaster Ontario, #2

Not at all trying to run PK through the mill again here - but how did/would he know that LV was the sole beneficiary? Not unless LV told him? In fact, how does anyone know what someone wills to another if they themselves aren't in the will process? I'm confused!!:waitasec:

 

[nicgumshoe]

No - our bad guy here, I think, is very normal looking, very young, very close, fairly well-educated and well- spoken, an 'every day' type of guy/gal. And that in itself no doubt is problematic for LE to nail him/her.:twocents:

Yes, I agree. I think very close to home; in the neighborhood if not PK.

But I sometimes wonder about the "young" part. The trophy aspect makes us think serial killer. If that's so, don't older serial killers tend to operate closer to home, over time, as their confidence builds?

If it was a homeless/wandering or visibly psychotic (as opposed to psychopathic) serial killer I don't think he would have gotten access to the garage, or near AG.

This would have been a psychopathic killer who lives nearby, an aquaintence of AG,
and who she knew enough to converse with in the garage.

 

[nicgumshoe]

Not at all trying to run PK through the mill again here - but how did/would he know that LV was the sole beneficiary? Not unless LV told him? In fact, how does anyone know what someone wills to another if they themselves aren't in the will process? I'm confused!!:waitasec:

Didn't they do some clean-up of the house together? Thought I read that somewhere (I may be dreaming that). Maybe she told him at that point.

 

[Sillybilly]

Not at all trying to run PK through the mill again here - but how did/would he know that LV was the sole beneficiary? Not unless LV told him? In fact, how does anyone know what someone wills to another if they themselves aren't in the will process? I'm confused!!:waitasec:

Presumably LV and PK did speak at some point after AG's death.

from PK's post:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Audrey Gleave, retired teacher, viciously murdered in home, Ancaster Ontario, #2


I don't have too many details about all that stuff... AG's estate was settled within a week or two. LV was the executor and sole beneficiary and (as I understand from LV) the value of the estate was approx $500k.

<bbm>

I wish we knew when the Will was dated.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Here's an article about taking trophies:

http://www.johndouglasmindhunter.com/articles/030213.php

ETA: And this is interesting:

http://www.enotes.com/serial-killers-reference/serial-killers

ETA again: This is really insightful:

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/forensics-profiling-the-perpetrator.html

 

[Sillybilly]

Something struck me as I was reading one of NSU's links, the part about organized vs disorganized.

from:
http://www.enotes.com/serial-killers-reference/serial-killers

Sometimes, though, the organized offender does lose control in the actual attack when the fantasy motivation takes over. In such cases, a violent or frenzied attack may occur, yet there may also be careful attempts to conceal or destroy evidence

At what point after the attack does the disorganized / organized component starts or stops (if that makes sense?)

I think we've been led to believe that AG's killing was a disorganized killer which could indicate a low level of intelligence. However, it seems that the door to AG's garage was closed which IMO, would seem to indicate that the killer had the presence of mind to do that after this vicious attack. Are we then looking at an organized killer (i.e. of higher intelligence) who went into a frenzy?

Maybe the killer did not enter/leave via the garage door, dunno.

 

[libyana]

An interesting fact about British serial killers is that a high percentage are delivery and truck drivers. Do we know for a fact that the perp came in through the garage.? Also the trophy part, it seems to have been something that was immediately obvious to LE.

 

[nicgumshoe]

Something struck me as I was reading one of NSU's links, the part about organized vs disorganized.

from:
http://www.enotes.com/serial-killers-reference/serial-killers





At what point after the attack does the disorganized / organized component starts or stops (if that makes sense?)

I think we've been led to believe that AG's killing was a disorganized killer which could indicate a low level of intelligence. However, it seems that the door to AG's garage was closed which IMO, would seem to indicate that the killer had the presence of mind to do that after this vicious attack. Are we then looking at an organized killer (i.e. of higher intelligence) who went into a frenzy?

Maybe the killer did not enter/leave via the garage door, dunno.

That part that jumped off the page at me too. It could explain an older, more organized killer. At least someone AG trusted enough to let into the garage for a chat. (I'm still going with the notion that she knew her killer, crated the dogs, and met him in the garage...and that's how he gained access.)

Or maybe there are some organized killers, who plan a completely brutal attack?

But the part about sk's often committing their first murders closer to home, could suggest a younger killer. (I had thought it was the other way around, that they moved closer to home as they get more confident....I think I was thinking about the i90 killer who started to bury victims closer to his home).

I'm wondering if organized killers are more likely to take trophies than disorganized. Or at least different types of trophies. Also, do they start taking trophies from the outset, or is this something that begins to happen later?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Copied from sillybilly's post:

Maybe the killer did not enter/leave via the garage door, dunno.


You know, after re-reading my own links I also thought of that. Do we have solid evidence from LE that the killer did so? Also, I now have these questions/comments:

1. I firmly believe that with AG we are looking for an 'organised killer'.

2. Was AG's body 'staged' in the garage - was her coat on neatly as a woman would put her own coat on OR was it on hapsardly,quickly for staging? Same with her shoes.

3. Are we looking for a serial killer with AG? If so, I go back to linking AG to SL and SV.

I'll think of more later, no doubt.

 

[nicgumshoe]

Here's an article about taking trophies:

http://www.johndouglasmindhunter.com/articles/030213.php

ETA: And this is interesting:

http://www.enotes.com/serial-killers-reference/serial-killers

ETA again: This is really insightful:

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/forensics-profiling-the-perpetrator.html

Awesome stuff! Thanks!

If it's an sk, I think you're right about him being here amongst us at times,

"They'll follow the case very closely and keep newspaper clips of their crimes. This is helpful to the investigator -- something you want to look for when you initiate a search warrant."

http://www.johndouglasmindhunter.com/articles/030213.php

But, hopefully we don't end up profiling each other in a profiling free-for-all :gasp:

That said, if the killer is from her neighborhood, maybe the websleuths logs would show who from that area is on here watching.

 

[libyana]

Same here, and I think he lives in that area as well. I think SV's murder was considered 'messy' because she fought back being a fairly young fit woman. The same might be true for SL which was why a murder was not completed. We also have KF to consider because she may have been brought back to the scenes of the other crimes.
AG might have been an easier hit being elderly.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Organised or disorganised?

http://www.drtomoconnor.com/4050/4050lect04.htm

 

[colette]

The killer could have opened her garage door just by pushing the buttons that looked more clean or used on the key pad. Thereby guessing her numbers and opening the door causing Audrey to come to the garage thinking PK or a friend was there. Or he happened to be near when she opened the garage door and he ran in and assulted her.

 

[libyana]

Maybe he murdered her in the house and tried to drag the body to the car to dispose of her much like SV but was interupted by dogs barking and lights going on at neighbours.

 

[nicgumshoe]

Copied from sillybilly's post:

Maybe the killer did not enter/leave via the garage door, dunno.


You know, after re-reading my own links I also thought of that. Do we have solid evidence from LE that the killer did so? Also, I now have these questions/comments:

1. I firmly believe that with AG we are looking for an 'organised killer'.

2. Was AG's body 'staged' in the garage - was her coat on neatly as a woman would put her own coat on OR was it on hapsardly,quickly for staging? Same with her shoes.

3. Are we looking for a serial killer with AG? If so, I go back to linking AG to SL and SV.

I'll think of more later, no doubt.

1) Agreed on that (but one that lost it on this, or brutality is his style)

2) Possibly staged. Maybe he was putting a coat on because he wanted to use her own car (like with SV), to drive her somewhere. Maybe he wanted to make her look like a passenger, and she'd need a coat on in the winter. (staged or not....maybe he was going to move AG in her own car, but then couldn't find the keys, or got snagged up on the garage door somehow)

3) Maybe, that trophy part keeps coming back to mind. Did both the SL and SV cases involve the perp gaining easy access to the victims? With SL did he just walk in through the business entrance? With SV, is it considered someone she let in?

But those cases don't seem organized to me. With SV he seems to have panicked, trying to think of where to dump the body, and left clues at 3 locations (the murder scene, the car, the Caledon location where he left the body). And have we heard of any "trophy" from the SV case?

SL doesn't seemed planned through either. While she was beaten severely, if he'd wanted and planned to kill...he probably would have easily finished the job once she was down. Maybe he thought he had, but did he try to take a trophy?

I think SV and SL are definitely connected, but the killer is disorganized.
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It just seems like such a weird combo of factors with AG. LE think AG knew the killer. A trophy suggests an sk, but they normally don't kill people they know. The scene was supposedly brutal suggesting a disorganized killer, but easily gaining access (especially with the dogs around), suggests an organized killer that may have lost it on this one. Or maybe the easy access just means she knew and trusted the killer, and he was disorganized.

And the victims age suggests to me that this is a different perp (from SV and SL) as well.

If it's not PK, I really think he's from the neighborhood. Got in the garage to chat and either went nuts, or carried out a plan. And he's possibly hiding right there in the neighborhood right now, in plain site.

 

[libyana]

He must have parked a van or car somewhere and maybe approached from the back of the property, it would be risky to be seen in the driveway.

 

[dotr]

I was thinking about what was different that year from any of the many others that AG lived alone, more or less engaging in similiar activities and coming to no harm .What was different about this Xmas time from all the other ones ?..Seems to be, it is the one Xmas that AG did not spend with LV's family and stayed (presumably) by herself..

 

[nicgumshoe]

The killer could have opened her garage door just by pushing the buttons that looked more clean or used on the key pad. Thereby guessing her numbers and opening the door causing Audrey to come to the garage thinking PK or a friend was there. Or he happened to be near when she opened the garage door and he ran in and assulted her.

But there would probably be at least 4 #'s in the code. The number of possible combinations of those numbers would be vast. I suppose I could do the math, but thought I'd never have to use it again after high school

True, he could have followed her in...but I've always thought the dogs would have alerted her way in advance. But that remains a good possibility. The dogs may have alerted her, but she just didn't have time to get away.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I was thinking about what was different that year from any of the many others that AG lived alone, more or less engaging in similiar activities and coming to no harm .What was different about this Xmas time from all the other ones ?..Seems to be, it is the one Xmas that AG did not spend with LV's family and stayed (presumably) by herself..

Well:
1. AG was unwell.

2. AG didn't go to the coffee group.

3. It rained (could this be weather related?).

4. The cake delivery was delayed.

5. AG had a beautiful, new car. (How old was that Camaro? I think it's a 2010).

Anything else?

 

[nicgumshoe]

Yes, I suppose it could have been a woman, (based on a link I just saw in a post: can't seem to find that post suddenly, but the link was: http://www.lsu.edu/faculty/jpullia/femaleserialkillers.htm)

"money is the motivation for 74% of their killings (Nutt)."

The Will comes to mind for sure.

But the brutality and sexual component make me think otherwise. Do women tend to take trophies?