Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #1

[otto]

Well, if there was a cover on the pool when the bodies were found, that blows my theory that the bodies were hanging into the pool, whether empty or with water in it.

jmo

The photo is from the real estate website, so the cover could have been moved or in a different position at the time of the murders.

 

[MizStery]

I would imagine that the police have been consulting with their legal staff after the statement the children have made.

Whatever statement they release will be after consultation with the children. Lawyers will be involved in reviewing the police statement.

The police will need to do everything they can to avoid a costly lawsuit.

Not only were the Shermans international legacies with their philanthropy but dealing with a huge business.

More importantly, the children have deep pockets for lawyers and already they are upset with the release that the police are considering this a "murder-suicide".

They won't stand for an unbased remark that their father killed their mother. The statement of the theory of the police was released before the post mortem examinations were conducted.

The children's statement included a request for a "thorough, intensive and objective criminal investigation". That is what I believe is in the process of happening. This will be a lengthy investigation, in my opinion.

http://markets.businessinsider.com/...-Family-of-Barry-and-Honey-Sherman-1011611912

"We urge the Toronto Police Service to conduct a thorough, intensive and objective criminal investigation, and urge the media to refrain from further reporting as to the cause of these tragic deaths until the investigation is completed."

The families have given LE an ultimatum through their lawyers,"We urge the Toronto Police Service to conduct a thorough, intensive and objective criminal investigation, and urge the media to refrain from further reporting as to the cause of these tragic deaths until the investigation is completed."

The following article is from 'The Washington Post dated Mon Dec 18th.

[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]"The billionaire couple were found strangled, their bodies dangling from the railing around their basement lap pool.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]Honey and Barry Sherman died of “ligature neck compression,” a form of strangulation in which a cord or rope is used to exert fatal pressure on a person’s neck, Toronto police said.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]It was a gory and puzzling detail in the deaths of the Shermans, who made billions in the pharmaceutical industry, then gave a significant chunk of their fortune away to charity."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text]
[/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]<snip>[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text]
[/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]"Police have been tight-lipped about the case and, until Sunday, didn&#8217;t say anything about what might have aroused their suspicions.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]Hopkinson said there were no signs of forced entry at the Shermans&#8217; home. No one has been arrested in the case, which police have still not deemed a homicide. Sunday&#8217;s news release called them &#8220;two suspicious deaths.&#8221;[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]On Saturday afternoon, the Toronto Star reported that police were investigating the possibility of a murder-suicide, but relatives dismissed that theory.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]The family released a statement, saying: &#8220;We are shocked and think it&#8217;s irresponsible that police sources have reportedly advised the media of a theory which neither their family, their friends nor their colleagues believe to be true.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]&#8220;We urge the Toronto Police Service to conduct a thorough, intensive and objective criminal investigation, and urge the media to refrain from further reporting as to the cause of these tragic deaths until the investigation is completed.&#8221;[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]<snip>[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2017/12/18/billionaire-couple-found-dead-in-their-basement-had-been-strangled-canadian-police-say/?utm_term=.671ea36d5ae6[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=.SFUIText]
[/FONT]

 

[Inthedetails]

The photo is from the real estate website, so the cover could have been moved or in a different position at the time of the murders.

Well, then, I'm keeping my theory!

Thanks, dotr, for the photo of the pool.

jmo

 

[dotr]

I would go consider a break-in/botched burglary theory if the victims had been shot or strangled....but hanged? That takes a lot of physical effort to hang a body who doesn't want to be hanged. In this case, two bodies. Plus you need the rope and location to do it - which takes planning. I think too much time and effort is required for these deaths for it to be a burglary gone wrong. (Not that burglaries go right, but ykwim.)

jmo

Sorry, should have been clearer in that post, the point i intended to make, was that LE may have been trying to keep a community already spooked by all the B&Es, calm and not worried about murder in the mix too.
imo, speculation.

 

[Bagonzo]

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[Inthedetails]

Sorry, should have been clearer in that post, the point i intended to make, was that LE may have been trying to keep a community already spooked by all the B&Es, calm and not worried about murder in the mix too.
imo, speculation.

Yes, I misunderstood. I see your point now.

 

[otto]

The families have given LE an ultimatum through their lawyers,"We urge the Toronto Police Service to conduct a thorough, intensive and objective criminal investigation, and urge the media to refrain from further reporting as to the cause of these tragic deaths until the investigation is completed."

The following article is from 'The Washington Post dated Mon Dec 18th.

[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]"The billionaire couple were found strangled, their bodies dangling from the railing around their basement lap pool.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]Honey and Barry Sherman died of &#8220;ligature neck compression,&#8221; a form of strangulation in which a cord or rope is used to exert fatal pressure on a person&#8217;s neck, Toronto police said.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]It was a gory and puzzling detail in the deaths of the Shermans, who made billions in the pharmaceutical industry, then gave a significant chunk of their fortune away to charity."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text]
[/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]<snip>[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text]
[/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]"Police have been tight-lipped about the case and, until Sunday, didn&#8217;t say anything about what might have aroused their suspicions.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]Hopkinson said there were no signs of forced entry at the Shermans&#8217; home. No one has been arrested in the case, which police have still not deemed a homicide. Sunday&#8217;s news release called them &#8220;two suspicious deaths.&#8221;[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]On Saturday afternoon, the Toronto Star reported that police were investigating the possibility of a murder-suicide, but relatives dismissed that theory.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]The family released a statement, saying: &#8220;We are shocked and think it&#8217;s irresponsible that police sources have reportedly advised the media of a theory which neither their family, their friends nor their colleagues believe to be true.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]&#8220;We urge the Toronto Police Service to conduct a thorough, intensive and objective criminal investigation, and urge the media to refrain from further reporting as to the cause of these tragic deaths until the investigation is completed.&#8221;[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]<snip>[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2017/12/18/billionaire-couple-found-dead-in-their-basement-had-been-strangled-canadian-police-say/?utm_term=.671ea36d5ae6[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=.SFUIText]
[/FONT]

That's pretty much my understanding at this time. Police have said that there's no sign of a break-in and they are not currently looking for a suspect. In their estimation, it must look like a murder-suicide, and there must be reasons for that conclusion. The family has a lot of money and is unwilling to consider the possibility of murder-suicide, so police have brought in the homicide team to look for anything that was missed that would indicate a double murder.

There is security camera coverage of the property, so I think that will be the best option for ruling out a double murder. If security cameras were turned off at some point, it should be evident when that happened and who did that because security systems are tied to computers which are tied to passwords. I suspect that even an erased portion can be retrieved with today's technology.

 

[justchrissy47]

http://houssmax.ca/Virtualtour/mobile/tourId/h3925515/type/unbrand

The real estate listings have been removed but I still see this ....can anyone see any cameras?

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[Pamela_Brewer]

Police in Toronto were conducting a homicide investigation Monday into the*deaths of *advertiser censored*Canadian billionaire and his wife
after weekend autopsies revealed the couple died of strangulation..

The cause of death for both victims was "ligature neck compression," police*said in a statement.

IMO this rules out the murder -suicide theory.

Ligature strangulation does not = "hanging".

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...urround-toronto-billionaires-death/960353001/

MOO

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[Pamela_Brewer]

http://houssmax.ca/Virtualtour/mobile/tourId/h3925515/type/unbrand

The real estate listings have been removed but I still see this ....can anyone see any cameras?

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

I don't, but that doesn't rule out pin hole cameras.
I am curious about any camera footage!
MOO

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[kay74]

So there was no other trauma to their bodies. I guess the next step is the toxicology report and the all important security footage.

 

[loveisthemovement]

So does this for sure mean they did not die from hanging? (article link: https://www.thespec.com/news-story/8002420-update-billionaire-couple-found-dead-in-mansion-a-gory-and-puzzling-mystery/)

"The billionaire couple were found strangled, their bodies dangling from the railing around their basement lap pool.

Honey and Barry Sherman died of "ligature neck compression," a form of strangulation in which a cord or rope is used to exert fatal pressure on a person's neck, Toronto police said."

Sorry if I'm :treadmill: but it's just not clear for me.

 

[Lilibet]

I would go consider a break-in/botched burglary theory if the victims had been shot or strangled....but hanged? That takes a lot of physical effort to hang a body who doesn't want to be hanged. In this case, two bodies. Plus you need the rope and location to do it - which takes planning. I think too much time and effort is required for these deaths for it to be a burglary gone wrong. (Not that burglaries go right, but ykwim.)

jmo

Agree. The hanging of two people is the stumper here. Whether it&#8217;s a double suicide, a murder-suicide or a double murder, the hanging of two people is unusual and bizarre. There are easier ways to achieve the same result. So, IMO the fact that hanging was used perhaps has some significance.

Someone wondered about auto-erotic asphyxiation. That&#8217;s the only scenario that would require hanging, so I guess that possibility should be on the table, even though it seems a little wild for these two, in my inexperienced opinion. But one never knows.

So IMO the big question is &#8220;why choose hanging?&#8221; A few thoughts....If it&#8217;s a double murder, or a murder suicide, it&#8217;s quiet and the hope might be that LE would just rule it suicide. But there&#8217;s still the difficulty getting the victim(s) to cooperate. It&#8217;s still unclear whether Honey died elsewhere. If it&#8217;s a double suicide, perhaps sufficient pills were unavailable and obtaining them might be difficult, especially if the suicide needed to happen immediately, for some reason.

 

[Alice Ramnit]

It's so mystifying. If it were a double suicide why not use pills? Why hanging? BS above anyone else would have had access to and knowledge of lethal dosages.
Murder suicide I am having such a hard time getting my head around. I can't see how you can move from being such a benevolent human being to a murderer without something substantially shifting in your personality and this being noticed by others.

 

[tommyR]

A high profile case like this you want your best and brightest working all angles. And where do most metro departments keep their best and brightest? Homicide.

I don’t understand that dotr. Doesn’t make sense...

 

[Pamela_Brewer]

So does this for sure mean they did not die from hanging? (article link: https://www.thespec.com/news-story/8002420-update-billionaire-couple-found-dead-in-mansion-a-gory-and-puzzling-mystery/)

"The billionaire couple were found strangled, their bodies dangling from the railing around their basement lap pool.

Honey and Barry Sherman died of "ligature neck compression," a form of strangulation in which a cord or rope is used to exert fatal pressure on a person's neck, Toronto police said."

Sorry if I'm :treadmill: but it's just not clear for me.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/6525016/

From what I understand no body weight is involved hence they were deceased when tied up to look like a hanging.
Forensics can determine the difference.
I'm thinking angle of neck marks or broken hyoid bone?
(? Further research...Hyoid can be broken by hanging in 25% of hanging deaths, so that rules that thought out )
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20973326/

MOO

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[Chorley8]

They didn't say there wasn't evidence of an external person coming into the home. They've said (per the Washington Post article) there was "no sign of forced entry." Of course that can mean someone had a key, or they were known to the Shermans and were let inside, or they were good enough at B&E that they didn't leave an obvious sign of forced entry. The police didn't say anything about camera coverage, either inside or outside the home.

Agreed 100% that we should look at the case, rather than what statistics say is likely in similar crimes.

i assume the real estate agent who found them had a key. \or access to a lock box and hence a key. would it by typical for an agent, not finding anyone home, to start going through every room, for example the basement pool area?
of course the agent and anyone else with the agency with authorization to handle viewings (if any) would have access anytime anyday.

As for timing\; if there is anything regarding wills or financial transactions then there could be something we don't know....a pending visit to a lawyer etc. that would make it essential to happen immediately

 

[Cora]

I admit, the conspiracy theorist in me is popping up with this case. I have to wonder if wording and releasing COD as "ligature neck compression" is intentional. For me, it clears nothing up. It means they could have been strangled or they could have hung themselves. Still clear as mud.

For me. The wording "ligature neck compression". is hugely important. It tells me that IF this is a murder-suicide, Barry strangled her with a ligature then drug her body to the pool or he somehow managed to get her in a noose and hang her. She most certainly would have struggled fiercely, unless she was drugged.

I am interested to know if there are one or two sets of ligature marks.




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[MFH]

I just had the same thought/question about the real estate agent. From the floor plans, the indoor pool is the farthest room from the center of the house or any exterior doors. If it is normal for the real estate agent to let themselves in, it would IMOO not be the first place I would think they would look, if not most likely the last.

I wonder if they A) were getting the house ready for a showing and going room to room to make sure everything was set up or B) saw some type of disturbance leading them to look for the home owners out of concern for their safety.

Just thoughts going through my head because it did seem odd

 

[justice be served]

I just had the same thought/question about the real estate agent. From the floor plans, the indoor pool is the farthest room from the center of the house or any exterior doors. If it is normal for the real estate agent to let themselves in, it would IMOO not be the first place I would think they would look, if not most likely the last.

I wonder if they A) were getting the house ready for a showing and going room to room to make sure everything was set up or B) saw some type of disturbance leading them to look for the home owners out of concern for their safety.

Just thoughts going through my head because it did seem odd

Good thoughts or it could have been as simple as curiosity being I believe on this thread it said the agent could not get a phone call response from them. Maybe the house looked currently occupied (i.e., kitchen not clean, bed unmade) and the agent thought something very odd was going on and she sleuthed her way through the house thoroughly. I know I would have done that.

I believe the agent was simply the unfortunate bystander in this too. Poor thing.