Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

[Mikos34]

And neither in the US or Canada does the Mayor for any city run the Police department and most definately not a Defence attourney either.

The mayor does not run the police department but the mayor's interference led to a one month delay with the other team did an investigation. No one in this thread to my knowledge said the mayor runs the police department. But I did say the mayor interfered with the police decision.

 

[dotr]

The mayor does not run the police department but the mayor's interference led to a one month delay with the other team did an investigation. No one in this thread to my knowledge said the mayor runs the police department. But I did say the mayor interfered with the police decision.

Neither agreeing or disagreeing, just posting..rbbm.
Mayor Tory did nothing improper in Sherman death probe, Toronto police chair says

January 5, 2018
The chair of the Toronto Police Services Board says Mayor John Tory acted appropriately in passing on a prominent family's complaints to the police chief, despite criticism from the former chair who believes the mayor crossed a line.


Board chair Andy Pringle said he sees nothing unusual or improper in Mr. Tory's decision to relay concerns from family members of Barry and Honey Sherman, who were found dead in their home three weeks ago, about police communication to Police Chief Mark Saunders. The family members were upset about leaks to the media, including a suggestion investigators believed the deaths may have been a murder-suicide."

"Alok Mukherjee, past chair of the city's police services board, said Mr. Tory's conduct could be seen as a potential violation, noting that the mayor wields enormous influence and that the board is responsible for hiring police chiefs and renewing their contracts.


"When he picks up the phone to the chief … and says here is what I've heard, the chief may well say, well the mayor is asking me to do something about it, which obviously would be the intent why the matter is being conveyed. It will not be seen as simply conveying a message. It may well be seen as a direction," said Mr. Mukherjee, who is a visiting professor at Ryerson University.


Mr. Mukherjee added, "Mr. Pringle is wrong" in his assessment and needs a refresher course on the Police Services Act."
Toronto Mayor John Tory relayed Sherman family concerns to police
Dec 27 2017
"Toronto Mayor John Tory has acted as a conduit for the family of Barry and Honey Sherman, telling police that relatives are upset with how the service has communicated information about the billionaire couple's deaths.

A spokesman for the mayor confirmed that Mr. Tory has spoken several times to the Shermans' relatives, both by phone and at last week's memorial service, where the mayor delivered remarks."

"In the hours after news had emerged of the grisly discovery in the Sherman house, but long before the police confirmed the names of the victims, Ontario Health Minister Eric Hoskins tweeted condolences that identified the couple. Several media outlets used his tweet as official confirmation of the couple's death.


On Wednesday, a spokeswoman for the minister would not explain how he got that information, saying that Mr. Hoskins could not comment because of the ongoing investigation. She pointed to a subsequent statement from the minister that praised the couple but offered no explanation for Mr. Hoskins's tweet."

 

[Lexiintoronto]

The mayor does not run the police department but the mayor's interference led to a one month delay with the other team did an investigation. No one in this thread to my knowledge said the mayor runs the police department. But I did say the mayor interfered with the police decision.

Link, please, showing a) TPS said there was a one month delay, and b) if the TPS were found to have delayed anything that John Tory was behind it.

Official source, please.

After the deaths, members of the Sherman family told Mr. Tory they were seeing information in the media before hearing from police, according to Don Peat, the mayor's spokesman.

"The mayor firmly believes it is part of his job as mayor to speak to grieving families and to comfort them. He speaks to many families following traumatic events in the city and conveys their concerns, if any, to the relevant city divisions or agencies," Mr. Peat said on Friday. "In this case, he conveyed the concerns raised by the Sherman family dispassionately to the chief like he would for any family and did not make any requests of police."

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.the...be-toronto-police-chair-says/article37516635/

ETA: I didn’t see dotr’s post before I posted the above.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Since there were a few people on the scene before LE, don’t you think someone would leak a suicide note?

What if it’s not a suicide note, but documents left out in plain sight?

 

[MistyWaters]

What if it’s not a suicide note, but documents left out in plain sight?

That could be, forged and planted documents that might not mean anything at a slight glance. If so, it could’ve be anything fabricated to give the illusion of depression, remorse or regret leading to suicidal thoughts in general.

This NYPost story has no factual basis whatsoever but just as an example -
https://nypost.com/2017/12/23/billionaire-couple-faced-financial-woes-before-suspicious-deaths/

 

[Lexiintoronto]

That could be, forged and planted documents that might not mean anything at a slight glance. If so, it could’ve be anything fabricated to give the illusion of depression, remorse or regret leading to suicidal thoughts in general.

This NYPost story has no factual basis whatsoever but just as an example -
https://nypost.com/2017/12/23/billionaire-couple-faced-financial-woes-before-suspicious-deaths/

I wonder who fed the NY Post that story?

 

[dotr]

I wonder who fed the NY Post that story?

Maybe..
Billionaire and wife in financial straights before hanging | Daily Mail Online
Published: 23:31 EST, 23 December 2017 | Updated: 22:48 EST, 20 January 2018

 

[MistyWaters]

I wonder who fed the NY Post that story?

Yeah the overtones definitely appear malicious in origin.

As for donations by the Sherman Foundation -

Year ending Mar 31, 2017 - donations $5,189,532
Year ending Mar 31, 2018 - donations $5,037,323
https://apps.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/hai...w-eng.action?b=881516322RR0001&fpe=2018-03-31

The Apotex Foundation also donated $$3,903,482 and $2,693,495 in the same two calendar years.

 

[WINDSOR]

I wish I had the 'financial challenges' some media outlets had implied the Shermans faced!

 

[MistyWaters]

From last March:
“Toronto Police are planning more search warrants in the Barry and Honey Sherman murder probe and may use “surreptitious or covert” techniques to find the killer or killers, according to police documents.”
‘Covert’ tactics, more search warrants may be coming in Barry and Honey Sherman murder probe: Police | The Star


This snip below pertains to the McArthur investigation in Toronto but
I didn’t realize that search warrants could be executed “covertly”, presumably the suspect unaware. If this type of investigation has occurred regarding the Shermans murder, that’d be one obvious reason for warrants to be sealed.

“.......Cantlon detailed how, in December 2017, police obtained a warrant to covertly search McArthur’s apartment, where they downloaded the contents of his computer and other digital devices......”
Bruce McArthur case prosecutors outline chilling trail of clues that led them to serial killer

 

[casesensitive]

From last March:
“Toronto Police are planning more search warrants in the Barry and Honey Sherman murder probe and may use “surreptitious or covert” techniques to find the killer or killers, according to police documents.”
‘Covert’ tactics, more search warrants may be coming in Barry and Honey Sherman murder probe: Police | The Star


This snip below pertains to the McArthur investigation in Toronto but
I didn’t realize that search warrants could be executed “covertly”, presumably the suspect unaware. If this type of investigation has occurred regarding the Shermans murder, that’d be one obvious reason for warrants to be sealed.

“.......Cantlon detailed how, in December 2017, police obtained a warrant to covertly search McArthur’s apartment, where they downloaded the contents of his computer and other digital devices......”
Bruce McArthur case prosecutors outline chilling trail of clues that led them to serial killer

I didn't know about covert search warrants either. It seems that LE would have to have concrete evidence before they could apply for one. In this case, they found DNA evidence (blood and seman) from two of his victims in McArthur's van, which led to applying for a warrant to search his apartment covertly.

I'm wondering, just HOW MUCH evidence do TSP (or DA's) think is necessary before arresting somebody. In addition to the DNA evidence found in his van, the apartment search of DA's computer in Dec. had actual photos of the victims after he killed them. And yet, they didn't arrest him, but put him under surveillance. TPS barely made it into his apartment in time to save the next man he intended to kill (naked and tied to his bed).

I would be very surprised if TPS had enough evidence to apply for covert warrants in the Sherman case when those warrants were sealed. Thankfully their case doesn't involve a serial killer.

 

[MistyWaters]

I didn't know about covert search warrants either. It seems that LE would have to have concrete evidence before they could apply for one. In this case, they found DNA evidence (blood and seman) from two of his victims in McArthur's van, which led to applying for a warrant to search his apartment covertly.

I'm wondering, just HOW MUCH evidence do TSP (or DA's) think is necessary before arresting somebody. In addition to the DNA evidence found in his van, the apartment search of DA's computer in Dec. had actual photos of the victims after he killed them. And yet, they didn't arrest him, but put him under surveillance. TPS barely made it into his apartment in time to save the next man he intended to kill (naked and tied to his bed).

I would be very surprised if TPS had enough evidence to apply for covert warrants in the Sherman case when those warrants were sealed. Thankfully their case doesn't involve a serial killer.

I don’t know, would the strength of evidence supporting a covertly served search warrant be any different than any other type of search warrant? I’m thinking how it’s executed by TPS isn’t very significant to the Judge who authorizes it. Last reported, nine search warrants were approved in October.

“The warrants — police will not reveal what they were seeking or where the warrants were served — were authorized in the four weeks prior to a Sherman family press conference last week that criticized Toronto police for a shoddy investigation and announced a $10 million reward....”
Toronto police obtain nine new search warrants in Sherman murder investigation | The Star

 

[Tighthead]

I would think that executing a covert search requires some pretty overwhelming evidence and maybe some urgency regarding public safety as well. The legal burden must be significant.

I’d have to read more closely to understand why they couldn’t have executed the warrant in the ordinary course.

At first blush these searches seem like an expansion of police powers, to which I’m generally opposed.

 

[MistyWaters]

Here’s a bit of information on search warrants not served by “knock-and-announce”.

Hard/Dynamic Entry
A hard entry (or dynamic entry) is an entry into a house without following the "knock-and-announce" common law rule.

Police may enter a residence with a search warrant and not follow the common law rule where they have grounds believe that announcing may result in evidence being destroyed or resistance may be made where officers will be put at risk. [6]

The use of "hard entries" do not require judicial approval, but including it in the ITO would go contribute to the validity of the warrant.[7]
Canadian Criminal Procedure and Practice/Search and Seizure/Warrant Searches/Execution - Wikibooks, open books for an open world

This is purely speculation however it was TPS who earlier referred to the possibility of “surreptitious or covert” techniques being employed in this investigation.
(Linked above) BBM
From last March:
“Toronto Police are planning more search warrants in the Barry and Honey Sherman murder probe and may use “surreptitious or covert” techniques to find the killer or killers, according to police documents.”

 

[casesensitive]

So did TPS use of surreptitious and covert techniques produce any results? It's been eleven months since that plan was announced. I do have to remind myself that murder investigations take time, and apparently TPS don't act quickly in arresting a perp.

 

[MistyWaters]

So did TPS use of surreptitious and covert techniques produce any results? It's been eleven months since that plan was announced. I do have to remind myself that murder investigations take time, and apparently TPS don't act quickly in arresting a perp.

I remain optimistic there’ll either be an upcoming announcement of charges laid or the new Lead Investigator will offer a briefing. If Joe Warmington is right and there’s four or five suspects, that also adds additional complexity which takes time.

 

[WINDSOR]

If the TPS is surveilling some individual(s) who they believed committed the murders, unless they believe some citizen is in danger, they will be in no hurry to make any arrests.
****Even if TPS have enough evidence to lay charges, they will try to gain more evidence, so much evidence in fact, that the alleged perpetrator(s) will possibly plead guilty. That is what happened in the McArthur case.
**** Because Canadian Law mandates the maximum time between arrest date and trial date, there will be no reason for the TPS to make an arrest and start the clock ticking so to speak.
****The more time spent on surveillance, the greater likelihood of discovering more co-conspirators, and information on other crimes.
***** There is likely some complexity in the committing of this crime. The police will want to have all the loose ends tidied up before going public with an arrest.

 

[dotr]

The Shermans are still making news, unrelated? to their deaths. imo, speculation. rbbm.
Feb 5 2019
Torontonians to emulate IDF beret march
"Unlike the IDF recruits, who complete their march in one go, the Toronto participants will spread their 90-km hike over three days in 15-km increments, and include various other military-like activities. After 15 km, participants will break for Krav Maga – lessons in combat self-defence – and firearms training, Rabbi Flanzreich said."



"The rabbi came up with the idea for the mission after experiencing the 2016 “extreme boot camp” in Israel. It reminded him of the significance of the beret march at the conclusion of his own training, he said.

He recruited participants who are active men in their late 30s to early 50s. One has got to be fit to finish the event, Rabbi Flanzreich said.

In addition to funds raised by the participants, the march has received support from a number of local philanthropists: the Honey and Barry Sherman Foundation, the Lewis And Charlotte Steinberg Family Foundation, Vanessa and Ron Kimel, Sen. Linda Frum and Howard Sokolowski. The base camp will be named in honour of Barry and Honey Sherman, whose philanthropy supported Israel, Rabbi Flanzreich said."

 

[drama_farmer]

From last March:
“Toronto Police are planning more search warrants in the Barry and Honey Sherman murder probe and may use “surreptitious or covert” techniques to find the killer or killers, according to police documents.”
‘Covert’ tactics, more search warrants may be coming in Barry and Honey Sherman murder probe: Police | The Star

snipped by me

IMO When I hear "surreptitious" used by law enforcement in Canada (or outside the US, in general) I think about the "Mr. Big" ruse/pretense.

<modsnip: no link to referenced material>

I wonder if there are aspects of this case that would make a "Mr. Big" ploy one of the tools in their covert toolbox. .​

 

[MistyWaters]

snipped by me

IMO When I hear "surreptitious" used by law enforcement in Canada (or outside the US, in general) I think about the "Mr. Big" ruse/pretense.

<modsnip: no link to referenced material>

I wonder if there are aspects of this case that would make a "Mr. Big" ploy one of the tools in their covert toolbox. .​

I agree, Mr Big operations have broke open a lot of cases that would’ve been difficult to otherwise solve.

Another interesting tool aside from undercover operations is for a civilian, a person who’s acquainted with the suspect and is already suspicious, agreeing to become a Police Agent to assist police. In a prior Alberta case it involved the Agent wearing a wire plus recording of all phone conversations between him and the suspect.
RCMP used civilian as police agent in triple-murder investigation | CBC News