Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

[JDG]

Mikos, are you in Canada or the US?? I ask because in Canada, everything that IS evidence is saved for the courtroom. It is not given to the media nor to the public.
No one has stopped TPS from making a decision, that's just silly. They have declared it to be a double targeted murder.

Gomes is not concerned about criticism from Brian Greenspan, they are both on the same side. All officers of the court must behave in certain ways and they both want a resolution of this case. To think anything else, is preposterous.

 

[MistyWaters]

Mikos, are you in Canada or the US?? I ask because in Canada, everything that IS evidence is saved for the courtroom. It is not given to the media nor to the public.
No one has stopped TPS from making a decision, that's just silly. They have declared it to be a double targeted murder.

Gomes is not concerned about criticism from Brian Greenspan, they are both on the same side. All officers of the court must behave in certain ways and they both want a resolution of this case. To think anything else, is preposterous.

And neither in the US or Canada does the Mayor for any city run the Police department and most definately not a Defence attourney either.

 

[1&2&3]

Well, it is obvious to just about everyone, that the Sherman heirs are running this investigation.

“Money talks” is proving to be true and powerful in the Sherman’s deaths. IMO.

Is there also a disagreement on which parent died first? This will play into which will takes precedence.

The last I heard, Honey’s will could not be found. Could this be an indicator of the M/S with Barry destroying Honey’s will? Did the children previously know where both wills were kept?

 

[WINDSOR]

If someone was involved with the 'Targeted Double Homicide' is on this forum, what are the chances they would be posting? If they were posting would they likely be posting in support of a murder/suicide scenario or against it?

The fact we have heard nothing from the TPS or Greenspan's team, I believe means nothing at this point. It is early days. How many years was the TPS investigating the disappearance of victims of serial killer Bruce McArthur before they arrested him?

In Canada, I believe that elected politicians have far less power to impact other branches of government such as the Police and the Judiciary. We see the huge negative reaction to the Premier of Ontario Rob Ford trying have his friend become OPP Commissioner.

If the Premier is facing such blowback on a job posting I do not see how Mayor Tory would have any influence on the TPS and their determination if a crime has occurred.

Has anybody asked who would benefit from the Sherman's deaths? I was told to look at who has most to benefit, either personally or in business from their deaths. Implied as well that revenge and payback could be a benefit. That becomes a very small list. That might tie in nicely with Warrington's suspects he feels the TPS are following.

 

[ldlager]

If someone was involved with the 'Targeted Double Homicide' is on this forum, what are the chances they would be posting? If they were posting would they likely be posting in support of a murder/suicide scenario or against it?

The fact we have heard nothing from the TPS or Greenspan's team, I believe means nothing at this point. It is early days. How many years was the TPS investigating the disappearance of victims of serial killer Bruce McArthur before they arrested him?

In Canada, I believe that elected politicians have far less power to impact other branches of government such as the Police and the Judiciary. We see the huge negative reaction to the Premier of Ontario Rob Ford trying have his friend become OPP Commissioner.

If the Premier is facing such blowback on a job posting I do not see how Mayor Tory would have any influence on the TPS and their determination if a crime has occurred.

Has anybody asked who would benefit from the Sherman's deaths? I was told to look at who has most to benefit, either personally or in business from their deaths. Implied as well that revenge and payback could be a benefit. That becomes a very small list. That might tie in nicely with Warrington's suspects he feels the TPS are following.

Who would benefit has been discussed previously here. But that doesn’t help narrow the range of suspects- many could be perceived as benefitting from barry’s Death. But who would benefit from honeys death as well as barry’s? I think that could be the key to this. With them both dead, who would stand to benefit most? If honey was the primary target, it would have been easy for the killers to murder her and leave before Barry got home. If Barry was the target, it would have been eas6 to kill him without killing honey- murder him in the parking lot, etc.
I’m sorry, but the reality is that someone wanted them BOTH dead. Who would benefit most from that? Use your imagination.....

 

[MistyWaters]

Who would benefit has been discussed previously here. But that doesn’t help narrow the range of suspects- many could be perceived as benefitting from barry’s Death. But who would benefit from honeys death as well as barry’s? I think that could be the key to this. With them both dead, who would stand to benefit most? If honey was the primary target, it would have been easy for the killers to murder her and leave before Barry got home. If Barry was the target, it would have been eas6 to kill him without killing honey- murder him in the parking lot, etc.
I’m sorry, but the reality is that someone wanted them BOTH dead. Who would benefit most from that? Use your imagination.....

Rather than imagining who would benefit from wanting both of them dead, my thoughts go to who would benefit by the m/s not being detected as a staged double murder scene? Who stood to benefit by posing the Shermans in such a humiliating way as to deceptively attempt to place the blame on Barry for causing his wife’s death as well as intending to tarnish his or both their reputations by creating unfounded rumour and scandal? That’s the ultimate in diabolical payback imo - as the victims are unable to defend themselves.

 

[ldlager]

Rather than imagining who would benefit from wanting both of them dead, my thoughts go to who would benefit by the m/s not being detected as a staged double murder scene? Who stood to benefit by posing the Shermans in such a humiliating way as to deceptively attempt to place the blame on Barry for causing his wife’s death as well as intending to tarnish his or both their reputations by creating unfounded rumour and scandal? That’s the ultimate in diabolical payback imo - as the victims are unable to defend themselves.

I don’t really understand what was done to make anyone think Barry was the murderer and then committed suicide. The bodies were both strangled and suspended with the belts. The hands on both bodies had evidently been tied up at some point, and the coats were pulled down on both bodies to restrict the arms. Maybe I’m missing something but I have never understood what evidence we know of that would make anyone think that to Barry murdered her and then committed suicide.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

What some call philanthropy, others, such as Stanford University ethics professor Rob Reich, call “reputation laundering”.

Meet the Sacklers: the family feuding over blame for the opioid crisis

Maybe a reason, why Honey was not spared, if there was a targeted m/m?

 

[MistyWaters]

I don’t really understand what was done to make anyone think Barry was the murderer and then committed suicide. The bodies were both strangled and suspended with the belts. The hands on both bodies had evidently been tied up at some point, and the coats were pulled down on both bodies to restrict the arms. Maybe I’m missing something but I have never understood what evidence we know of that would make anyone think that to Barry murdered her and then committed suicide.

The first mention of the possible staging appears to have been even prior to TPS’s Press Conference.

BBM
Jan 19, 2018
“Toxicology reports show that no drugs were in their bodies that would contribute to their deaths and some of the words being used by people describing the scene was almost a tableau that was staged to look like something it was not,” Donovan said.

The initial theory of a possible murder-suicide was reported by multiple media outlets citing police sources.

The theory prompted the Sherman family to hire lawyer Brian Greenspan and former chief forensic pathologist for Ontario Dr. David Chiasson to conduct a private investigation.

Toronto police are conducting a separate investigation into the couple’s deaths, but their findings have not yet been released.

Officers said they are not providing any new information or comment at this time.

“I think what the family would like is for the Toronto police to give an update in front of the camera and say exactly what they think the case is, whether they still think it’s murder-suicide or, as the family thinks, a double homicide,” Donovan said.”
Private investigation concludes Shermans were murdered: report

 

[dotr]

What some call philanthropy, others, such as Stanford University ethics professor Rob Reich, call “reputation laundering”.

Meet the Sacklers: the family feuding over blame for the opioid crisis

Maybe a reason, why Honey was not spared, if there was a targeted m/m?

Maybe this family was more inclined to take security measures than the Shermans?
K.Sackler is the same age as HS, 70. imo, speculation, fwiw

The Secretive Family Making Billions From the Opioid Crisis

Sackler family made $4 BILLION in painkiller profits as 235,000 Americans did from opioid overdoses | Daily Mail Online

 

[Lexiintoronto]

@Kerry Winter did the police question you about anything they found on the scene, for eg.: green painter’s tape, or any other items commonly found on a construction site?

 

[drama_farmer]

Regarding the position of their winter jackets: I just thought of another plausible scenario that accounts for the jackets in that position. Yanking a jacket by pulling down at the shoulders is a great way to make the neck more accessible if you're trying to get a belt around it.

 

[ldlager]

The first mention of the possible staging appears to have been even prior to TPS’s Press Conference.

BBM
Jan 19, 2018
“Toxicology reports show that no drugs were in their bodies that would contribute to their deaths and some of the words being used by people describing the scene was almost a tableau that was staged to look like something it was not,” Donovan said.

The initial theory of a possible murder-suicide was reported by multiple media outlets citing police sources.

The theory prompted the Sherman family to hire lawyer Brian Greenspan and former chief forensic pathologist for Ontario Dr. David Chiasson to conduct a private investigation.

Toronto police are conducting a separate investigation into the couple’s deaths, but their findings have not yet been released.

Officers said they are not providing any new information or comment at this time.

“I think what the family would like is for the Toronto police to give an update in front of the camera and say exactly what they think the case is, whether they still think it’s murder-suicide or, as the family thinks, a double homicide,” Donovan said.”
Private investigation concludes Shermans were murdered: report

I don’t disagree that the bodies appeared to be staged, ie positioned in an intentional way. But I don’t feel that this staging in any way implies or indicates that Barry murdered honey and then himself.

 

[MistyWaters]

I don’t disagree that the bodies appeared to be staged, ie positioned in an intentional way. But I don’t feel that this staging in any way implies or indicates that Barry murdered honey and then himself.

I agree, which is the reason I wonder if there was additional evidence at the crime scene such as a confession or suicide note, something that was supposed to lead TPS to a firm m/s or s/s conclusion.

 

[casesensitive]

I agree, which is the reason I wonder if there was additional evidence at the crime scene such as a confession or suicide note, something that was supposed to lead TPS to a firm m/s or s/s conclusion.

I had questioned if something as blatant as a suicide note had been left at the scene to explain Det. Price's video statement from the crime scene (no forced entry--not looking for any suspects at this time) and read recently that there was no suicide note. I'll try to find the link for that statement, although it obviously came from an unofficial source...like everything else when police remain silent.

I've never seen a case where the media has been so vocal against TPS (especially Donovan, Warmington) about whether their initial reporting was based on deception by police that it was a M/S (for whatever reason) or if police bungled the investigation for six weeks because they really believed it was a M/S. Warmington had a police source who saw the bodies at the scene, and said it was an "execution". He was told by TPS not to print M/M when he checked his source's statement, and that it was M/S.

There are several indications that TSP may have had tunnel vision of M/S for at least a month that we have discussed in detail--some agreeing, some not. Whether tunnel vision was a problem and whether it hindered the investigation will remain to be seen.

What we do know is that TPS never gave an update for six weeks to correct the media's reporting of M/S until the day after the family's private team released the second autopsy results. I can understand why they hadn't commented before this, but were then forced to do so.

What I don't understand now, like the rest of us, is what lead TSP to insinuate that this was a domestic M/S (although suspicious) after many hours at the crime scene.

Where do cops minds initially go at crime scenes? I think of the case of Richard Oland, a multimillionaire, who was violently bludgeoned to death with over forty blows to his head. The deputy Police Chief who attended the scene, looked at his body and the bloody scene, and said "I sure hope this is a suicide".

The first cops on the scene in the Jayme Closs case ( they got a 911 call for help from a woman inside the house) saw the front door blown open by a shotgun, saw her dead father inside the front door, and reported back to dispatch that they had a domestic situation.

So was the Sherman crime scene merely based on first (faulty and rash) impressions which were never corrected in the media? Without the family's investigative team, I'm not sure if double, targeted murders would ever have been made public by TPS.

 

[MistyWaters]

I had questioned if something as blatant as a suicide note had been left at the scene to explain Det. Price's video statement from the crime scene (no forced entry--not looking for any suspects at this time) and read recently that there was no suicide note. I'll try to find the link for that statement, although it obviously came from an unofficial source...like everything else when police remain silent.

I've never seen a case where the media has been so vocal against TPS (especially Donovan, Warmington) about whether their initial reporting was based on deception by police that it was a M/S (for whatever reason) or if police bungled the investigation for six weeks because they really believed it was a M/S. Warmington had a police source who saw the bodies at the scene, and said it was an "execution". He was told by TPS not to print M/M when he checked his source's statement, and that it was M/S.

There are several indications that TSP may have had tunnel vision of M/S for at least a month that we have discussed in detail--some agreeing, some not. Whether tunnel vision was a problem and whether it hindered the investigation will remain to be seen.

What we do know is that TPS never gave an update for six weeks to correct the media's reporting of M/S until the day after the family's private team released the second autopsy results. I can understand why they hadn't commented before this, but were then forced to do so.

What I don't understand now, like the rest of us, is what lead TSP to insinuate that this was a domestic M/S (although suspicious) after many hours at the crime scene.

Where do cops minds initially go at crime scenes? I think of the case of Richard Oland, a multimillionaire, who was violently bludgeoned to death with over forty blows to his head. The deputy Police Chief who attended the scene, looked at his body and the bloody scene, and said "I sure hope this is a suicide".

The first cops on the scene in the Jayme Closs case ( they got a 911 call for help from a woman inside the house) saw the front door blown open by a shotgun, saw her dead father inside the front door, and reported back to dispatch that they had a domestic situation.

So was the Sherman crime scene merely based on first (faulty and rash) impressions which were never corrected in the media? Without the family's investigative team, I'm not sure if double, targeted murders would ever have been made public by TPS.

I also recall a media report that said no suicide note was found. But thinking about that, confirming a suicide note would in turn confirm a suicide.

But it’s never been said if any forged or fraudulent documents, letters or notes were found at the crime scene...maybe it’s just a matter of semantics?

 

[human]

I also recall a media report that said no suicide note was found. But thinking about that, confirming a suicide note would in turn confirm a suicide.

But it’s never been said if any forged or fraudulent documents, letters or notes were found at the crime scene...maybe it’s just a matter of semantics?

Since there were a few people on the scene before LE, don’t you think someone would leak a suicide note?

 

[human]

I also recall a media report that said no suicide note was found. But thinking about that, confirming a suicide note would in turn confirm a suicide.

But it’s never been said if any forged or fraudulent documents, letters or notes were found at the crime scene...maybe it’s just a matter of semantics?

Since there were a few people on the scene before LE, don’t you think someone would leak a suicide note?

Of course, no one has heard a peep from those people. Do you think they may talk to a friend? Is there anything forbidding them to talk to the media for $$$$$$$?

 

[MistyWaters]

Since there were a few people on the scene before LE, don’t you think someone would leak a suicide note?

Of course, no one has heard a peep from those people. Do you think they may talk to a friend? Is there anything forbidding them to talk to the media for $$$$$$$?

That’s right, they didn’t say a peep nor has TPS. I’d imagine the discovery of the bodies must’ve been absolutely devastating to the realtor and the cleaning person who personally knew them, regardless of how the deaths occurred. But if either had observed anything, by day one m/s was already splashed all over the media anyway.

However a forged document or note would explain the time lag in not calling 911 immediately, calling family members first and as discussed here previously, apparently no fear that a murderer was still in the house.

It would also explain why the bodies might initially appear as an execution to one police officer and a murder-suicide to another.

In another case, the killer went so far as to fabricate a suicide note in an attempt to blame prior murders on the innocent victim.
'Serial killer planted fake suicide note' blaming victim for previous murders

 

[Mikos34]

Mikos, are you in Canada or the US?? I ask because in Canada, everything that IS evidence is saved for the courtroom. It is not given to the media nor to the public.
No one has stopped TPS from making a decision, that's just silly. They have declared it to be a double targeted murder.

Gomes is not concerned about criticism from Brian Greenspan, they are both on the same side. All officers of the court must behave in certain ways and they both want a resolution of this case. To think anything else, is preposterous.

The idea that Gomes is on the same side as Brian Greenspan is naïve. Greenspan is a defense attorney and is acting in the role of one. A case that he lost is linked below. He tries to put up a strong defense even when all evidence is seemingly against him. And before anyone mentions it yes I'm aware he has won cases before. There is no chance that a defense attorney who is hired to advocate in a certain role is going to agree with any assessment of the case that is not the one his clients are paying him for.
Closing arguments heard in Rob Ramage trial | CBC Sports

There's some idea that the TPS has lots of evidence that they are saving for the courtroom. Compare Susan Gomes press conference with the one linked below for a Toronto murder last year. In this press conference the police give lots of details including video and the officer is happy to answer questions. It's about 8-9 minutes.

John Tory's interference led to a one month delay. The TPS waited for the other team to come up with their own conclusion which took a month. If you are aware of other situations like this please let us all know about it.