Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

[casesensitive]

Chiasson could be exactly right that something was tied around their wrist and he correctly assessed it while incorrectly assessing that it was other people who had tied something around their wrists.

It probably is a better theory that most of the actors in this investigation are under a lot of pressure and making what they feel are correct decisions rather than going down a cover-up and people are making up stories road.

RSBM

We don't know what evidence TPS garnered during their six week investigation before their press release of "targeted, double murders", but we do know that Sgt. Gomes stated that they relied on various forensic partnerships to arrive at their decision. It is obvious to me that TPS would never accept the family's financed autopsy results without having them reviewed, evaluated and accepted by their other "various" forensic experts. These parallel investigation teams were in direct competition, and TPS would put Chiasson's report through the wringer, so to speak.

In addition to the wrist marks, Chiasson was also able to determine that the men’s leather belts were the cause of the strangulation, likely done by someone holding and tightening the belt.

I agree with you, the cover-up theory of m/s is lame. But TPS relied on many other expert sources besides Chiasson's report to arrive at their decision. Your theory that the TPS investigators were too stressed out to make correct decisions, and therefore, just bought into a faulty, subjective autopsy report is stretching your point pretty thin.

Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, police say | The Star

 

[Lexiintoronto]

What the killer may have said or written about the Shermans might be clues into their psyche and may also play a part in their being identified as their murderer.

Dr. Mike Arntfield, former police officer and now criminologist, was featured on the same Fifth Estate episode where Kerry Winter appeared. He helped analyze Kerry’s failed polygraph.
(At the 26:00 mark)

Dr. Arntfield co-wrote a book with Marcel Danesi called: Murder in Plain English: From Manifestos to Memes — Looking at Murder Through the Words of Killers.

Dr. Arntfield on the writing of killers:

Both these crimes (two mass shootings) were prefaced by significant writing online and private writing that we can really use as a decoder ring," he explains.

We know the Shermans were targeted and the scene was staged, according to the TPS and private investigators.

Mr. Danesi on planned murders and ‘scripting’:

"One of the most interesting things for me in approaching the topic of murder ... is that it is part of human performance," Danesi tells The Current's guest host Jan Wong.

"A murder, unless it's, of course, provoked emotionally on the spot ... It is planned, it has a script to it ... and often the script is written out in advance."

View into minds of killers? Look at their writing, say professors | CBC Radio

(My questions would be: what if the killing doesn’t go as scripted? How is a killer likely to act?)

Speaking on cracking cold cases in another interview, Dr. Arntfield said: ‘someone always knows something ‘. Someone close to the killer of the Shermans might have that one piece of information about the crime that could lead to solving the case.

In understanding a killer’s psyche (he was speaking of a serial killer) he said: ‘you often have to look into less obvious elements of their life’. He referred to a killer’s poetry in his example. He said she wrote about laughing at the killings and used metaphors instead of calling them killings, murders or deaths.

 

[ldlager]

RSBM

We don't know what evidence TPS garnered during their six week investigation before their press release of "targeted, double murders", but we do know that Sgt. Gomes stated that they relied on various forensic partnerships to arrive at their decision. It is obvious to me that TPS would never accept the family's financed autopsy results without having them reviewed, evaluated and accepted by their other "various" forensic experts. These parallel investigation teams were in direct competition, and TPS would put Chiasson's report through the wringer, so to speak.

In addition to the wrist marks, Chiasson was also able to determine that the men’s leather belts were the cause of the strangulation, likely done by someone holding and tightening the belt.

I agree with you, the cover-up theory of m/s is lame. But TPS relied on many other expert sources besides Chiasson's report to arrive at their decision. Your theory that the TPS investigators were too stressed out to make correct decisions, and therefore, just bought into a faulty, subjective autopsy report is stretching your point pretty thin.

Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, police say | The Star

I know this article says the Shermans were strangled/murdered with the belts. But this contradicts other reports that I recall have been posted here that indicted that something other than the belts may have been used to strangle the victims. Or certainly, that the "device" used to strangle the victims was not yet determined. This article is over a year old, and i am not certain that its content, at least in that respect, is entirely accurate.

 

[JayFriend]

I know this article says the Shermans were strangled/murdered with the belts. But this contradicts other reports that I recall have been posted here that indicted that something other than the belts may have been used to strangle the victims. Or certainly, that the "device" used to strangle the victims was not yet determined. This article is over a year old, and i am not certain that its content, at least in that respect, is entirely accurate.

It looks like most opinion here is that the scene with the victims with belts around their necks was staged. Not what actually caused the "ligature strangulation". That would apply to either M/S or M/M.

 

[deugirtni]

It looks like most opinion here is that the scene with the victims with belts around their necks was staged. Not what actually caused the "ligature strangulation". That would apply to either M/S or M/M.

From memory, I think it was first said in MSM (and attributed to the private investigator team) that it was not the belts, but something else, that caused the 'ligature whatever', but that could have been reporter interpretation... because I believe it was aFTER that, that it was then said (in MSM), or at least not argued, that the belts had caused the 'ligature whatever', but that they were LATER hung by the belts... but there has been much discussion that a forensic pathologist should have been able to determine, based on angles and degrees, etc., whether the belts as shown hanging, would have also caused the deaths..... ie if they had first been say, strangled with the belts, the damage would have been on a certain angle or straight on, whereas when they were later 'hung' by the belts, the belts would be at a different angle.. and I'll wager a bet that a good forensic pathologist should have been able to tell if both B's and H's strangulation injuries, were the same - or if one seemed to have been strangled first and then hung, while the other seems to have been hung and killed by the hanging at the same time.
Perhaps such microscopic examination of the wounds would have taken a matter of weeks, and perhaps that is why it seems that suddenly after 6 weeks of investigation, police were able to confidently declare that it was a double homicide?

 

[MistyWaters]

What the killer may have said or written about the Shermans might be clues into their psyche and may also play a part in their being identified as their murderer.

Dr. Mike Arntfield, former police officer and now criminologist, was featured on the same Fifth Estate episode where Kerry Winter appeared. He helped analyze Kerry’s failed polygraph.
(At the 26:00 mark)

Dr. Arntfield co-wrote a book with Marcel Danesi called: Murder in Plain English: From Manifestos to Memes — Looking at Murder Through the Words of Killers.

Dr. Arntfield on the writing of killers:


We know the Shermans were targeted and the scene was staged, according to the TPS and private investigators.

Mr. Danesi on planned murders and ‘scripting’:

View into minds of killers? Look at their writing, say professors | CBC Radio

(My questions would be: what if the killing doesn’t go as scripted? How is a killer likely to act?)

Speaking on cracking cold cases in another interview, Dr. Arntfield said: ‘someone always knows something ‘. Someone close to the killer of the Shermans might have that one piece of information about the crime that could lead to solving the case.

In understanding a killer’s psyche (he was speaking of a serial killer) he said: ‘you often have to look into less obvious elements of their life’. He referred to a killer’s poetry in his example. He said she wrote about laughing at the killings and used metaphors instead of calling them killings, murders or deaths.

The specialization of Arntfield which you’ve highlighted makes the reason for his participation in the 5th Estate documentary even more intriguing.

“......He (KW) was lying, and the test results — the polygraphist — confirms that," said Michael Arntfield, a criminologist at Western University in London, Ont., who observed the polygraph test.

"I mean, why go through this whole song and dance? That's really the underlying question here.".....

......Arntfield, who is also a former major crimes police officer, says Winter's story will be of interest to the police.

"He needs to be properly cleared before moving on to other people, I would say."....”
Barry Sherman's cousin fails lie detector test over allegation of plot to kill Honey Sherman | CBC News

 

[MistyWaters]

From memory, I think it was first said in MSM (and attributed to the private investigator team) that it was not the belts, but something else, that caused the 'ligature whatever', but that could have been reporter interpretation... because I believe it was aFTER that, that it was then said (in MSM), or at least not argued, that the belts had caused the 'ligature whatever', but that they were LATER hung by the belts... but there has been much discussion that a forensic pathologist should have been able to determine, based on angles and degrees, etc., whether the belts as shown hanging, would have also caused the deaths..... ie if they had first been say, strangled with the belts, the damage would have been on a certain angle or straight on, whereas when they were later 'hung' by the belts, the belts would be at a different angle.. and I'll wager a bet that a good forensic pathologist should have been able to tell if both B's and H's strangulation injuries, were the same - or if one seemed to have been strangled first and then hung, while the other seems to have been hung and killed by the hanging at the same time.
Perhaps such microscopic examination of the wounds would have taken a matter of weeks, and perhaps that is why it seems that suddenly after 6 weeks of investigation, police were able to confidently declare that it was a double homicide?

Considering that determining whether “ligature neck compression” was caused by murder or suicide seems not an everyday thing Canadian Pathologists are faced with, it’s possible they consulted with out-of-country experts as well. That takes time too. I doubt if one person’s medical opinion alone would suffice in a courtroom if the complex study of strangulation deaths wasn’t an area of their prior experience.

 

[human]

The specialization of Arntfield which you’ve highlighted makes the reason for his participation in the 5th Estate documentary even more intriguing.

“......He (KW) was lying, and the test results — the polygraphist — confirms that," said Michael Arntfield, a criminologist at Western University in London, Ont., who observed the polygraph test.

"I mean, why go through this whole song and dance? That's really the underlying question here.".....

......Arntfield, who is also a former major crimes police officer, says Winter's story will be of interest to the police.

"He needs to be properly cleared before moving on to other people, I would say."....”
Barry Sherman's cousin fails lie detector test over allegation of plot to kill Honey Sherman | CBC News

Wow! I wonder if KW will sue him?

 

[MistyWaters]

Wow! I wonder if KW will sue him?

That would be interesting!

I was just thinking, the fact that 5th Estate had lined up a criminologist to sit in on KW’s polygraph was obviously arranged in advance. Yet when KW last posted here he appeared convinced a CBC producer was expecting to receive home security tapes proving a m/s occurred. He also indicated he believed these tapes would be featured on the documentary when it aired.

What’s wrong with that picture is - if CBC producers were convinced they were about to receive leaked but irrefutable evidence that a m/s occurred, there’d be absolutely no reason to prearrange a polygrapher and crimologist to scrutinize KWs “proof” of m/s (his story of Barry’s prior attempts at arranging a hit on Honey through him).

At the time, how come KW didn’t wonder why he was asked by CBC to agree to a polygraph? I think there must be more to the story....

 

[human]

That would be interesting!

I was just thinking, the fact that 5th Estate had lined up a criminologist to sit in on KW’s polygraph was obviously arranged in advance. Yet when KW last posted here he appeared convinced a CBC producer was expecting to receive home security tapes proving a m/s occurred. He also indicated he believed these tapes would be featured on the documentary when it aired.

What’s wrong with that picture is - if CBC producers were convinced they were about to receive leaked but irrefutable evidence that a m/s occurred, there’d be absolutely no reason to prearrange a polygrapher and crimologist to scrutinize KWs “proof” of m/s (his story of Barry’s prior attempts at arranging a hit on Honey through him).

At the time, how come KW didn’t wonder why he was asked by CBC to agree to a polygraph? I think there must be more to the story....

Interesting. Do you feel they had advance warning that it was m/m?

It takes awhile to produce a program, does it not?

 

[MistyWaters]

Interesting. Do you feel they had advance warning that it was m/m?

It takes awhile to produce a program, does it not?

It was only a matter of 6 days between the TPS Press Conference held Jan 26th and the 5th Estate documentary aired Feb 1st. It was reported the actors for CBC were driving around the neighbourhood even prior to the PC. No way way would CBC feature a leaked m/s declaration amidst an ongoing police investigation of “suspicious” deaths.

So I can see no other possible explanation for the timing other than CBC anticipated the PC announcement and from the onset they were working with TPS in creating the show focusing on the star player - KW.

Whether that resulted in progress in solving the case or not, time will tell.

MOO

 

[deugirtni]

I don't think it was said that it was a declaration of M/S.. but that there was footage of a man with his face covered turning the camera off, but that he forgot to turn the audio off. This does not equate with M/S.. it could also (if it did exist, which of course, it doesn't) be M/M. Methinks that if it is true that KW was told that story, it was done to pull his chain, see his reaction, in case it was *him* who was unknowningly recorded on audio. jmo.

ETA to add.. they had a criminologist there to watch his reaction.. and he was possibly same time being rigged up for a lie detector test.. would it skew the result? etc.

 

[deugirtni]

It was only a matter of 6 days between the TPS Press Conference held Jan 26th and the 5th Estate documentary aired Feb 1st. It was reported the actors for CBC were driving around the neighbourhood even prior to the PC. No way way would CBC feature a leaked m/s declaration amidst an ongoing police investigation of “suspicious” deaths.

So I can see no other possible explanation for the timing other than CBC anticipated the PC announcement and from the onset they were working with TPS in creating the show focusing on the star player - KW.

Whether that resulted in progress in solving the case or not, time will tell.

MOO

The (5th Estate) may have been in the process of doing a show on the Sherman murders/deaths... to be presented as one way, or just as a whodunnit, what happened, here's what we know.. and it changed just days before airing, due to the PC stating TPS's determination of double homicide, so they made alterations. That could explain the quick timing?

 

[human]

It was only a matter of 6 days between the TPS Press Conference held Jan 26th and the 5th Estate documentary aired Feb 1st. It was reported the actors for CBC were driving around the neighbourhood even prior to the PC. No way way would CBC feature a leaked m/s declaration amidst an ongoing police investigation of “suspicious” deaths.

So I can see no other possible explanation for the timing other than CBC anticipated the PC announcement and from the onset they were working with TPS in creating the show focusing on the star player - KW.

Whether that resulted in progress in solving the case or not, time will tell.

MOO

I cannot see any other reasonable explanation

 

[human]

The (5th Estate) may have been in the process of doing a show on the Sherman murders/deaths... to be presented as one way, or just as a whodunnit, what happened, here's what we know.. and it changed just days before airing, due to the PC stating TPS's determination of double homicide, so they made alterations. That could explain the quick timing?

I don’t see how it is possible. It would cost a lot of time and take a lot of money. Why would they be filming two scenarios. Did anyone have warning that there would be a ruling?

What if they did a whole show in M/S and the next week comes out that it was M/M?

I think they had advance warning.

Sometimes it takes hours to do one scene. They do takes over and over and over again

 

[MistyWaters]

I don’t see how it is possible. It would cost a lot of time and take a lot of money. Why would they be filming two scenarios. Did anyone have warning that there would be a ruling?

What if they did a whole show in M/S and the next week comes out that it was M/M?

I think they had advance warning.

Sometimes it takes hours to do one scene. They do takes over and over and over again

Just my opinion, 5th Estate isn’t the type of show that would feature a tragic murder/suicide of a prominent Canadian philanthropists, him murdering his wife in their home, much less film a re-enactment of them driving around while still alive. The entire show was dedicated to the mystery and intrigue of why they were murdered.

 

[deugirtni]

Just my opinion, 5th Estate isn’t the type of show that would feature a tragic murder/suicide of a prominent Canadian philanthropists, him murdering his wife in their home, much less film a re-enactment of them driving around while still alive. The entire show was dedicated to the mystery and intrigue of why they were murdered.

Definitely a lot of mystery and intrigue... but also a lot of controversy on the 'method of death', and how police handled that whole thing.. so I don't think it would be odd for them to have planned to host a program interviewing different people with different takes on things.. gathered up some footage of interviewing various people and things.. and then having to potentially change it up a bit 6 days before airtime. It isn't like they would have to do 're-takes' of anything, they might just choose a different portion of same interview(s) from whomever they had interviewed for it.

I do however, think it's totally bizarre that they would be so in-your-face to do that thing with look-a-likes and similar vehicles, while police still had the home taped off, etc. But at the same time, at the time they were working on this, they would have had no idea how long it might take for police to *ever* make a statement - for all they knew, it could be another month. Up until the time of the PC on Jan 26th, they really hadn't made *any* statement, and MSM was just going on words spoken within the first few hours, when they didn't know much of *anything*.

I think it's possible they were collecting views from different people, and then once MM was announced, they edited as/if necessary.. I think KW had been making his own 'case' for M/S and so they set things up for that portion.. but as it turned out, his 'case' seems to have instead made a case for M/M, portraying himself as a potential culprit in the process. jmo.

 

[WINDSOR]

If KW wanted to sue Arntfield, he would have to come up with a lot of money to hire lawyers, to begin with.
Arntfield's defense would likely he was only expressing a his opinion.
KW could be forced to testify under oath and answer the defenses' queries. Could be embarrassing.
Not likely to happen in my opinion.

 

[casesensitive]

I don't think it was said that it was a declaration of M/S.. but that there was footage of a man with his face covered turning the camera off, but that he forgot to turn the audio off. This does not equate with M/S.. it could also (if it did exist, which of course, it doesn't) be M/M. Methinks that if it is true that KW was told that story, it was done to pull his chain, see his reaction, in case it was *him* who was unknowningly recorded on audio. jmo.

RSBM

Just to add KW's full quote: "Ronna told me she was waiting on an audio tape of Barry killing Honey. Also, a vdo tape of a man covering his face moving a cctv camera at Old Colony, who looked a LOT like Barry!!!!"
The mention of the man looking a lot like BS would imply M/S , which of course KW would be pleased to hear.

KW thinks TPS were going to give the CBC this crime scene evidence. I just can't see them doing that, if in fact the audio and video even exist.

 

[WINDSOR]

No disrespect intended but I do not believe that some of KW's statements on this site are valid.