Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

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I am new to the site. Someone had touched on the subject of DNA, I was curious if anyone knew if the TPS, or the family team, had used E DNA collections? Thanks Environmental DNA - Wikipedia
Welcome to Ws Milhano!
No idea if LE utilized E DNA, but assuming and hoping that it was employed especially as there was snow on the ground at the time. Wondering what footwear was worn by the perp/s?
speculation, imo
"Soil, permafrost, freshwater and seawater are well-studied macro environments from which eDNA samples have been extracted"


Apotex founder Barry Sherman and wife found dead in Toronto home | CBC News
 
I am new to the site. Someone had touched on the subject of DNA, I was curious if anyone knew if the TPS, or the family team, had used E DNA collections? Thanks Environmental DNA - Wikipedia

Any evidence the TPS has discovered, various forms of DNA, audio-video, materials, tips, and so on will not likely be available to the public until a trial takes place. So far the TPS and the courts have been extremely restrictive about any information reaching the public.
 
Any evidence the TPS has discovered, various forms of DNA, audio-video, materials, tips, and so on will not likely be available to the public until a trial takes place. So far the TPS and the courts have been extremely restrictive about any information reaching the public.

The TPS said this in their January 26th, 2018 press conference, speaking only to the quantity of physical evidence:

-To date close to 150 bulk or packaged items have been seized and are currently being reviewed and forensically analyzed

‘Bulk’ possibly being the forensic term meaning evidence heavy enough to weigh.


There have been a few warrants since that news conference, some are under seal.

ETA: welcome,@Milhano - what made you ask about possible eDNA being left at the scene?
 
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Over the past year I’ve closely followed the Sherman case and have done a great deal of thinking about it. This is a little long but it summarizes all of my thoughts at this time. The core evidence for the murder/suicide theory is below:

Background on these types of crimes with links:

1. Crime data shows that nearly all women are killed by someone they know. Only six percent are not. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2019/01/06/amid-spike-in-gta-domestic-homicides-experts-call-for-action-to-address-crisis.html

Crime data shows that strangulation is very rare but occurs approximately 1 in 16 times in domestic murder. http://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/domestic-violence-murders/?utm_term=.f39a60950a14

From the two stories above we can quantify the likelihood of the “targeted murder theory. 6% (homicides where the women didn’t know her killer) * 1% (deaths by strangulation, actually the number is given as less than 1% but I’ll use 1%) = 6/100 * 1/100 = 6/10,000 = 1 in 1,667. I highly recommend reading the two stories.

Of course there’s a chance they were targeted by someone they knew well. However zero evidence has come forth at this time. In that scenario still the likelihood of death by strangulation is still extremely rare.

2. Older men are more likely than younger men to commit murder suicide. Online it states that the couples 75+ are the highest risk group. I realize that both of them weren’t 75+ but Barry was 75. Online it also states that in the scenario where the man is 75+ the man typically has a dominant personality. https://www.officer.com/on-the-street/body-armor-protection/article/10744560/murdersuicide-when-killing-yourself-isnt-enough

3. Article in the globe and mail stated gossip was going around that Honey had recently insulted Barry at a party and told him that it would take 2 billion dollars to get rid of her. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-its-been-a-year-since-barry-and-honey-sherman-were-killed-why-do-we/

This story provides a possible motive.

OTHER THOUGHTS

1. I'll be happy to consider any evidence to the contrary. Let's see the photos of the hitmen, the footprints in the snow, the eyewitnesses who saw a strange van parked down the street etc. The obvious reason why no video has been released is there is no video evidence of anything.

2. If Honey was found alone murdered with no signs of forced entry and no robbery who’s on the suspect list?

Only Barry

3. Private Investigation Team/Media Belief:

Group of trained killers committed the crime.

Does not fit any crime data for this crime and is not supported by any evidence aside from David Chiasson’s wrist markings which are likely/possibly bruises or offensive/defensive wounds from the crime. David Chiasson came up with this theory with the help of the private detectives. Since he was hired by the family I assume he is getting paid and even if he did it for free he realizes his role is to help the defense/family and to suggest an alternate theory. He is not there to agree with the police. Honey has signs of a struggle on her lip and nose, Barry does not. An obvious conclusion is that he wasn’t attacked. Since someone in the house attacked Honey and there were only two people in the house Barry has to have been the attacker unless other evidence comes forward.

4. Susan Gomes Motivation/Psychological difficulties in stating murder/suicide hypothesis.

She has a desire to please John Tory and the Sherman's friends and family.

Fear of media criticism and fear of seeing prominent Torontonians criticize her theory in the media.

Seemed to have a need to have someone to agree with. David Chiasson is a natural to help her with this and has the advantage of selling his theory to a person who apparently is desperate to not rule murder/suicide. Since only Chiasson and the private team promoted the double homicide theory Gomes needed someone to take her off the hot seat and allow her a resolution which would please John Tory, Sherman supporters, and the family. Does anyone know if Susan Gomes worked with David Chiasson previously? She seems old enough to have. Chiasson worked for Ontario from 1994-2000.

5. Gomes didn’t provide any justification for her theories – hints at flimsy justification.

Gomes was going to be faced with enormous media/legal pressure if she ruled murder/suicide. Joe Warmington at the Toronto Sun said in a recent podcast that it was difficult to tell his boss Paul Godfrey at the Toronto Sun that the police were saying murder/suicide early on. Why does his boss feel so strongly about it that his own reporter finds it difficult to discuss it with him? Does this type of issue exist at other media outlets?

Loss of nerve or desire to please family and she knows Tory, Trudeau, Wynne, all attended funeral. If John Tory didn’t come by to talk to the police they would have just done their job quickly. Tory likely turned this into a six week investigation and paralyzed his police investigation team.

Gomes repeatedly said that her theory was based on six weeks of detective work. She failed to give any additional information then or now. She can’t be criticized if she hides behind a need to “protect the investigation”

6. Simon Giannini case – video of shooter in steakhouse released four days later

Barry Sherman case – no video released thirteen months later although police collected 2,000 hours of video (conclusion, no video evidence)

7. Properties appear to be fenced all around them which makes it very unlikely anyone could sneak in through a back yard or side yard. This is from the real estate listing online. Have not driven by the house so this could be incorrect but I doubt it.

8. High end property real estate sales showings will likely/always have both agents present as seller’s agent will have relatively few showings and the payoff to the seller’s agent is likely huge. House is not likely available for pop-ins by everyday real estate agent. List of people who saw the house is extremely unlikely to have anyone other than wealthy people who have nothing to do with this case and will be very short. People have to show up front that they can afford the house before they can even tour it typically.

9. Do they have an alarm in house?? Did it go off?? Apparently not.

10. Family’s reward of $10 million dollars has produced no evidence.

11. Some are stating that the police waited too long to begin the investigation and the killers got a six week head start. It’s obvious that any neighbors or people who drove through the area that night and saw anything suspicious would have brought that information to the police. The person who lives next door to Sherman for instance would be terrified if they had seen some strange individuals in the area that day or night and immediately want to talk about it with the police.

12. I heard there was a disagreement about the building of the Sherman’s new home. Barry was not in favor but Honey was. They spoke with an architect the last time they were seen in public together. Has the architect made any comments about how well they were getting along at these meetings?

13. If the family wanted a second autopsy an independent person from say Buffalo or Ottawa should have come to do it rather than someone hired by the family. That way the person could state things like “markings on the wrist, possibly from rope, also possibly from defensive wounds etc.” Instead you have someone doing an autopsy with an agenda preset. Not to say he’s being dishonest but presenting an unlikely hypothetical as what likely happened.


Evidence for double murder provided so far by the defense team

1. Says police didn’t find an earring they found in yard.

2. Say the police didn’t vacuum up some dust at the crime scene.

3. Brian Greenspan says things like if the police had checked all entry points to the house they would have found it but fails to state what the entry point is. (Conclusion: he’s making this up/speculating)

4. Chief Saunders has made the bizarre statement that he has to be careful because he “knows” the killer or killers are listening. (This is extremely strange because on a regular basis the police put suspect photos into media circulation along with their names and ask them to get a lawyer and turn themselves in).


FINAL CONCLUSION:

In my opinion based on all the evidence I’m aware of the balance of evidence at this time clearly supports murder suicide. The statistical likelihood of double homicide for this type of crime is extremely small. When combined with the complete lack of evidence that Susan Gomes has produced (her entire press conference was “I’m not going to explain my theory” (likely because it was entirely based on her talk with the pathologist for the defense team)) I don’t see any reason to believe that double homicide has occurred.

Two people were in the house that night. They both died with no evidence of anyone else being present. Unless any new evidence comes out I’ve made up my mind.
 
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Over the past year I’ve closely followed the Sherman case and have done a great deal of thinking about it. This is a little long but it summarizes all of my thoughts at this time. The core evidence for the murder/suicide theory is below:

Background on these types of crimes with links:

1. Crime data shows that nearly all women are killed by someone they know. Only six percent are not. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2019/01/06/amid-spike-in-gta-domestic-homicides-experts-call-for-action-to-address-crisis.html

Crime data shows that strangulation is very rare but occurs approximately 1 in 16 times in domestic murder. http://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/domestic-violence-murders/?utm_term=.f39a60950a14

From the two stories above we can quantify the likelihood of the “targeted murder theory. 6% (homicides where the women didn’t know her killer) * 1% (deaths by strangulation, actually the number is given as less than 1% but I’ll use 1%) = 6/100 * 1/100 = 6/10,000 = 1 in 1,667. I highly recommend reading the two stories.

Of course there’s a chance they were targeted by someone they knew well. However zero evidence has come forth at this time. In that scenario still the likelihood of death by strangulation is still extremely rare.

2. Older men are more likely than younger men to commit murder suicide. Online it states that the couples 75+ are the highest risk group. I realize that both of them weren’t 75+ but Barry was 75. Online it also states that in the scenario where the man is 75+ the man typically has a dominant personality. https://www.officer.com/on-the-street/body-armor-protection/article/10744560/murdersuicide-when-killing-yourself-isnt-enough

3. Article in the globe and mail stated gossip was going around that Honey had recently insulted Barry at a party and told him that it would take 2 billion dollars to get rid of her. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-its-been-a-year-since-barry-and-honey-sherman-were-killed-why-do-we/

This story provides a possible motive.

OTHER THOUGHTS

1. I'll be happy to consider any evidence to the contrary. Let's see the photos of the hitmen, the footprints in the snow, the eyewitnesses who saw a strange van parked down the street etc. The obvious reason why no video has been released is there is no video evidence of anything.

2. If Honey was found alone murdered with no signs of forced entry and no robbery who’s on the suspect list?

Only Barry

3. Police/Media Belief:

Group of trained killers committed the crime.

Does not fit any crime data for this crime and is not supported by any evidence aside from David Chiasson’s wrist markings which are likely/possibly bruises or offensive/defensive wounds from the crime. David Chiasson came up with this theory with the help of the private detectives. Since he was hired by the family I assume he is getting paid and even if he did it for free he realizes his role is to help the defense/family and to suggest an alternate theory. He is not there to agree with the police. Honey has signs of a struggle on her lip and nose, Barry does not. An obvious conclusion is that he wasn’t attacked. Since someone in the house attacked Honey and there were only two people in the house Barry has to have been the attacker unless other evidence comes forward.

4. Susan Gomes Motivation/Psychological difficulties in stating murder/suicide hypothesis.

She has a desire to please John Tory and the Sherman's friends and family.

Fear of media criticism and fear of seeing prominent Torontonians criticize her theory in the media.

Seemed to have a need to have someone to agree with. David Chiasson is a natural to help her with this and has the advantage of selling his theory to a person who apparently is desperate to not rule murder/suicide. Since only Chiasson and the private team promoted the double homicide theory Gomes needed someone to take her off the hot seat and allow her a resolution which would please John Tory, Sherman supporters, and the family. Does anyone know if Susan Gomes worked with David Chiasson previously? She seems old enough to have. Chiasson worked for Ontario from 1994-2000.

5. Gomes didn’t provide any justification for her theories – hints at flimsy justification.

Gomes was going to be faced with enormous media/legal pressure if she ruled murder/suicide. Joe Warmington at the Toronto Sun said in a recent podcast that it was difficult to tell his boss Paul Godfrey at the Toronto Sun that the police were saying murder/suicide early on. Why does his boss feel so strongly about it that his own reporter finds it difficult to discuss it with him? Does this type of issue exist at other media outlets?

Loss of nerve or desire to please family and she knows Tory, Trudeau, Wynne, all attended funeral. If John Tory didn’t come by to talk to the police they would have just done their job quickly. Tory likely turned this into a six week investigation and paralyzed his police investigation team.

Gomes repeatedly said that her theory was based on six weeks of detective work. She failed to give any additional information then or now. She can’t be criticized if she hides behind a need to “protect the investigation”

6. Simon Giannini case – video of shooter in steakhouse released four days later

Barry Sherman case – no video released thirteen months later although police collected 2,000 hours of video (conclusion, no video evidence)

7. Properties appear to be fenced all around them which makes it very unlikely anyone could sneak in through a back yard or side yard. This is from the real estate listing online. Have not driven by the house so this could be incorrect but I doubt it.

8. High end property real estate sales showings will likely/always have both agents present as seller’s agent will have relatively few showings and the payoff to the seller’s agent is likely huge. House is not likely available for pop-ins by everyday real estate agent. List of people who saw the house is extremely unlikely to have anyone other than wealthy people who have nothing to do with this case and will be very short. People have to show up front that they can afford the house before they can even tour it typically.

9. Do they have an alarm in house?? Did it go off?? Apparently not.

10. Family’s reward of $10 million dollars has produced no evidence.

11. Some are stating that the police waited too long to begin the investigation and the killers got a six week head start. It’s obvious that any neighbors or people who drove through the area that night and saw anything suspicious would have brought that information to the police. The person who lives next door to Sherman for instance would be terrified if they had seen some strange individuals in the area that day or night and immediately want to talk about it with the police.

12. I heard there was a disagreement about the building of the Sherman’s new home. Barry was not in favor but Honey was. They spoke with an architect the last time they were seen in public together. Has the architect made any comments about how well they were getting along at these meetings?

13. If the family wanted a second autopsy an independent person from say Buffalo or Ottawa should have come to do it rather than someone hired by the family. That way the person could state things like “markings on the wrist, possibly from rope, also possibly from defensive wounds etc.” Instead you have someone doing an autopsy with an agenda preset. Not to say he’s being dishonest but presenting an unlikely hypothetical as what likely happened.


Evidence for double murder provided so far by the defense team

1. Says police didn’t find an earring they found in yard.

2. Say the police didn’t vacuum up some dust at the crime scene.

3. Brian Greenspan says things like if the police had checked all entry points to the house they would have found it but fails to state what the entry point is. (Conclusion: he’s making this up/speculating)

4. Chief Saunders has made the bizarre statement that he has to be careful because he “knows” the killer or killers are listening. (This is extremely strange because on a regular basis the police put suspect photos into media circulation along with their names and ask them to get a lawyer and turn themselves in).


FINAL CONCLUSION:

In my opinion based on all the evidence I’m aware of the balance of evidence at this time clearly supports murder suicide. The statistical likelihood of double homicide for this type of crime is extremely small. When combined with the complete lack of evidence that Susan Gomes has produced (her entire press conference was “I’m not going to explain my theory” (likely because it was entirely based on her talk with the pathologist for the defense team)) I don’t see any reason to believe that double homicide has occurred.

Two people were in the house that night. They both died with no evidence of anyone else being present. Unless any new evidence comes out I’ve made up my mind.
Thanks for the interesting post, hoping KW might be tempted to comment on it!
What do you think would be the reason for both B and H to be held up by belts to the swimming pool railing, especially if H was already (speculated) deceased?
 
Welcome to Ws Milhano!
No idea if LE utilized E DNA, but assuming and hoping that it was employed especially as there was snow on the ground at the time. Wondering what footwear was worn by the perp/s?
speculation, imo
"Soil, permafrost, freshwater and seawater are well-studied macro environments from which eDNA samples have been extracted"


Apotex founder Barry Sherman and wife found dead in Toronto home | CBC News

The house likely had a spring cleaning prior to being put on the market and was likely pristine prior to the murders. I think that would work in favour of collecting evidence.

A few people that had grievances with BS are tied to the construction business. I’ve wondered if any of the warrants were served on sites that were under construction at the time of the murders.
 
Welcome to W.S. Mikos34 and thank you for sharing your comments. I have a few comments:
Re:
3. Article in the globe and mail stated gossip was going around that Honey had recently insulted Barry at a party and told him that it would take 2 billion dollars to get rid of her.It’s been a year since Barry and Honey Sherman were killed. There are so many questions. So few answers
This story provides a possible motive."


If you are going to include gossip from an article to support your m/s theory, I think you should also include gossip that points away from m/s .
" In fact, Honey had told a friend not long before their deaths that she and Barry had never been happier".

Your summary point:

"In my opinion based on all the evidence I’m aware of the balance of evidence at this time clearly supports murder suicide."

In reality, you do not have any "evidence" to support m/s. You, like the rest of us, are working with little evidence and pure speculation, whether we believe the official police statement or not. I enjoyed reading your post, and agree that the silence from police is frustrating, although not unexpected imo.
 
Mikos 34, nice presentation, but your whole statistical basis for your argument is error-filled. You are assuming that Honey did not know the killers. I am suggesting they likely they were surrogates for somebody she or Barry knew, therefore she would fit the 94% category.

Yes death by strangulation is rare, in the USA. The statistics you provide are US based, where 400,000,000 guns exist, more than than two per household. The stats for Canada would be much different.

Unfortunately the statistical basis for your argument is invalid, therefore your conclusion can be considered invalid.


Consider these points.
**Spousal murder is usually is preceded, by incidents of spousal abuse. ie O.J. Simpson. No record in the Sherman case.
**Older men are more likely to commit murder suicide, but usually one of the spouses or both will be suffering from a debilitating mental or physical illness, or in USA suffering from poverty and cannot afford health care for one another. Shermans, were healthy, Barry was working, active, ready to travel, displayed no infirmity.
** Just because the TPS have not announced anything does not mean they are not doing anything. Nobody new the TPS was following Bruce McArthur before they arrested him. There was a lot of pressure from the media to do something, but there was nothing from the TPS until they arrested him. No videos, no leaks, no press conferences.

Imagine for a minute you wanted to kill the Sherman's and cause confusion, chaos and make it more difficult to be caught. Could you envision anything better than the scenario we have now?

One final thought on statistics, the probability of ever winning big in a lottery is very very low, yet there are winners, and people still buy tickets. Just because something is not likely to happen does not mean it cannot or will not.
 
Statistic are great for analyzing trends, allocating police resources, developing investigative procedures and crime prevention/reduction.

Once you have a specific case, they are basically useless. Each bit of evidence distinguishes it from the big numbers they are lumped in with. They are not an investigative tool.
 
Welcome to W.S. Mikos34 and thank you for sharing your comments. I have a few comments:
Re:
3. Article in the globe and mail stated gossip was going around that Honey had recently insulted Barry at a party and told him that it would take 2 billion dollars to get rid of her.It’s been a year since Barry and Honey Sherman were killed. There are so many questions. So few answers
This story provides a possible motive."


If you are going to include gossip from an article to support your m/s theory, I think you should also include gossip that points away from m/s .
" In fact, Honey had told a friend not long before their deaths that she and Barry had never been happier".

Your summary point:

"In my opinion based on all the evidence I’m aware of the balance of evidence at this time clearly supports murder suicide."

In reality, you do not have any "evidence" to support m/s. You, like the rest of us, are working with little evidence and pure speculation, whether we believe the official police statement or not. I enjoyed reading your post, and agree that the silence from police is frustrating, although not unexpected imo.
 
Welcome to W.S. Mikos34 and thank you for sharing your comments. I have a few comments:
Re:
3. Article in the globe and mail stated gossip was going around that Honey had recently insulted Barry at a party and told him that it would take 2 billion dollars to get rid of her.It’s been a year since Barry and Honey Sherman were killed. There are so many questions. So few answers
This story provides a possible motive."


If you are going to include gossip from an article to support your m/s theory, I think you should also include gossip that points away from m/s .
" In fact, Honey had told a friend not long before their deaths that she and Barry had never been happier".

Your summary point:

"In my opinion based on all the evidence I’m aware of the balance of evidence at this time clearly supports murder suicide."

In reality, you do not have any "evidence" to support m/s. You, like the rest of us, are working with little evidence and pure speculation, whether we believe the official police statement or not. I enjoyed reading your post, and agree that the silence from police is frustrating, although not unexpected imo.
Welcome to W.S. Mikos34 and thank you for sharing your comments. I have a few comments:
Re:
3. Article in the globe and mail stated gossip was going around that Honey had recently insulted Barry at a party and told him that it would take 2 billion dollars to get rid of her.It’s been a year since Barry and Honey Sherman were killed. There are so many questions. So few answers
This story provides a possible motive."


If you are going to include gossip from an article to support your m/s theory, I think you should also include gossip that points away from m/s .
" In fact, Honey had told a friend not long before their deaths that she and Barry had never been happier".

Your summary point:

"In my opinion based on all the evidence I’m aware of the balance of evidence at this time clearly supports murder suicide."

In reality, you do not have any "evidence" to support m/s. You, like the rest of us, are working with little evidence and pure speculation, whether we believe the official police statement or not. I enjoyed reading your post, and agree that the silence from police is frustrating, although not unexpected imo.

I don't think that the two things are mutually exclusive. I believe that Honey may indeed have told someone things are great and also made divorce comments around the same time. Humans are volatile people. After someone is murdered the divorce comment sounds more important than the other one. Also, if you attend a party nearly everyone will tell you they are doing "great" but this may or may not be true.

The word evidence when I look it up states "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid." I don't see anything wrong with how I used the word. I'm not talking in the forensic sense if that's what you mean.
 
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Statistic are great for analyzing trends, allocating police resources, developing investigative procedures and crime prevention/reduction.

Once you have a specific case, they are basically useless. Each bit of evidence distinguishes it from the big numbers they are lumped in with. They are not an investigative tool.

If there was evidence for the targeted theory then I wouldn't even bring up the crime data and wouldn't be here discussing the case. However, there is none (little if you want to consider Chiasson's) . It's a matter of why believe in something improbable without a reason. In every murder/suicide in the area no one was there to witness it. A crime novelist could create a scenario where the man appeared to sho0t his wife and himself but the gun was planted in his hands and the husband is innocent but such scenarios are not given credence by the police. Only in this case are the farfetched scenarios being strongly considered.
 
Mikos 34, nice presentation, but your whole statistical basis for your argument is error-filled. You are assuming that Honey did not know the killers. I am suggesting they likely they were surrogates for somebody she or Barry knew, therefore she would fit the 94% category.

Yes death by strangulation is rare, in the USA. The statistics you provide are US based, where 400,000,000 guns exist, more than than two per household. The stats for Canada would be much different.

Unfortunately the statistical basis for your argument is invalid, therefore your conclusion can be considered invalid.


Consider these points.
**Spousal murder is usually is preceded, by incidents of spousal abuse. ie O.J. Simpson. No record in the Sherman case.
**Older men are more likely to commit murder suicide, but usually one of the spouses or both will be suffering from a debilitating mental or physical illness, or in USA suffering from poverty and cannot afford health care for one another. Shermans, were healthy, Barry was working, active, ready to travel, displayed no infirmity.
** Just because the TPS have not announced anything does not mean they are not doing anything. Nobody new the TPS was following Bruce McArthur before they arrested him. There was a lot of pressure from the media to do something, but there was nothing from the TPS until they arrested him. No videos, no leaks, no press conferences.

Imagine for a minute you wanted to kill the Sherman's and cause confusion, chaos and make it more difficult to be caught. Could you envision anything better than the scenario we have now?

One final thought on statistics, the probability of ever winning big in a lottery is very very low, yet there are winners, and people still buy tickets. Just because something is not likely to happen does not mean it cannot or will not.

It's interesting to posit that you know the statistics in Canada are much different but you provide no such statistics. If you wish to present some then I'll take you seriously. I'm not going to do your work for you.

I looked at Stats Canada figures for the years 2001-2011 (if you have more recent figures let me know). The statistics showed that the attacker had a history of domestic violence in 39 percent of the cases. So your "usually preceded" should be changed to usually not preceded. Section 2: Family-related murder-suicides

I can't argue that the police may be doing something in this case. But compare this case to the Simon Giannini case where the video was released in days versus this case. Don't compare it to the Bruce McArthur case. The Bruce McArthur case did not have 2,000 hours of video.

It may be fun to imagine bizarre unlikely scenarios but if the police did that every time there was a crime no one would ever get arrested. You go with 99.9% because that's the best humans can do.

There's no reason to make comments like "One final thought on statistics, the probability of ever winning big in a lottery is very very low, yet there are winners, and people still buy tickets. Just because something is not likely to happen does not mean it cannot or will not". When I post a number like 1 in 1,667 do you think I don't understand that the 1 is a very remote possibility? Certainly an unlikely thing can happen. But why so many people have chosen to believe the remote possibility without evidence to back it up I can't understand.

And as to your point that if someone that was hired to kill them knows them I can't agree with that. If Bob knows Ted and Ted knows Mary but Bob and Mary have never met and Ted has never told Bob about Mary or Mary about Bob then I don't think anyone besides yourself would argue that Bob knows Mary.
 
Regarding Simon Giannini....fwiw have to admit was looking for Sherman, real estate, Apotex and Belize connections at one time. fwiw, imo, speculation
Dec 9 2018
Did same brazen hitman kill mob scion, two Toronto businessmen?
"The Toronto Sun has learned that cops are eyeing a possible connection between the slayings of mob scion Angelo Musitano, veterinary technician Mila Barberi, and the brazen murders of real estate entrepreneur Simon Giannini and tech executive Matthew Staikos."
"Giannini and Staikos had no known links to organized crime.

But in each of the above cases, there are disturbing similarities.

The hitman was cool, quick and deadly."

"In each case, the shooter was a black man described variously as between 5-foot-7 and 5-foot-10."

"Cops arrested alleged hitman Jabril Abdalla, 27, of Hamilton, who has been charged with two counts of first-degree murder in the deaths of Musitano and Barberi. Two of his alleged accomplices remain at large.

Abdalla is black and was free at the time of each of the murders."
"Canadian mafia doyen James Dubro told the Sun it isn’t unusual for traditional organized crime to farm out its dirty work."
“The mob farming out work to street gangs and the like is not as unusual as it seems,” Dubro said."
"Some of those involved were ridiculous people,” Dubro said.

He added that the traditional organized crime families are finding it hard to find reliable killers and sometimes a bit of cocaine or some cash will do the trick."

Sept. 20 2017
Canoe
TORONTO - The real estate impresario brazenly assassinated in a downtown steak house appears whistling clean, according to cops.

And so far detectives appear stymied as to a motive why successful, well-liked father-of-two Simon Giannini’s shining life should end in such a sordid manner.

The 54-year-old was shot to death in what investigators are calling a professional hit at the Michael’s on Simcoe steak house last Saturday night in front of shocked diners in Toronto’s Entertainment District.
Ironically, Giannini was Facebook friends with Francesca Matus, the 52-year-old Keswick woman who was strangled to death with her American boyfriend in a Belize sugar cane field last April.

Matus’ murder remains unsolved."
 
Regarding Simon Giannini....fwiw have to admit was looking for Sherman, real estate, Apotex and Belize connections at one time. fwiw, imo, speculation
Dec 9 2018
Did same brazen hitman kill mob scion, two Toronto businessmen?
"The Toronto Sun has learned that cops are eyeing a possible connection between the slayings of mob scion Angelo Musitano, veterinary technician Mila Barberi, and the brazen murders of real estate entrepreneur Simon Giannini and tech executive Matthew Staikos."
"Giannini and Staikos had no known links to organized crime.

But in each of the above cases, there are disturbing similarities.

The hitman was cool, quick and deadly."

"In each case, the shooter was a black man described variously as between 5-foot-7 and 5-foot-10."

"Cops arrested alleged hitman Jabril Abdalla, 27, of Hamilton, who has been charged with two counts of first-degree murder in the deaths of Musitano and Barberi. Two of his alleged accomplices remain at large.

Abdalla is black and was free at the time of each of the murders."
"Canadian mafia doyen James Dubro told the Sun it isn’t unusual for traditional organized crime to farm out its dirty work."
“The mob farming out work to street gangs and the like is not as unusual as it seems,” Dubro said."
"Some of those involved were ridiculous people,” Dubro said.

He added that the traditional organized crime families are finding it hard to find reliable killers and sometimes a bit of cocaine or some cash will do the trick."

Sept. 20 2017
Canoe
TORONTO - The real estate impresario brazenly assassinated in a downtown steak house appears whistling clean, according to cops.

And so far detectives appear stymied as to a motive why successful, well-liked father-of-two Simon Giannini’s shining life should end in such a sordid manner.

The 54-year-old was shot to death in what investigators are calling a professional hit at the Michael’s on Simcoe steak house last Saturday night in front of shocked diners in Toronto’s Entertainment District.
Ironically, Giannini was Facebook friends with Francesca Matus, the 52-year-old Keswick woman who was strangled to death with her American boyfriend in a Belize sugar cane field last April.

Matus’ murder remains unsolved."

I assume you saw the mob hit in Montreal yesterday. It involved an apparent mafia member who was shot to death. Apparently he borrowed a large amount of money from a mob family for real estate purposes. Montreal real estate developer with Mafia ties shot dead | CBC News

Just speculating since I know very little about Giannini's background and at this time have heard nothing but his case could be similar to the Montreal case.
 
Over the past year I’ve closely followed the Sherman case and have done a great deal of thinking about it. This is a little long but it summarizes all of my thoughts at this time. The core evidence for the murder/suicide theory is below:

Background on these types of crimes with links:

1. Crime data shows that nearly all women are killed by someone they know. Only six percent are not. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2019/01/06/amid-spike-in-gta-domestic-homicides-experts-call-for-action-to-address-crisis.html

Crime data shows that strangulation is very rare but occurs approximately 1 in 16 times in domestic murder. http://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/domestic-violence-murders/?utm_term=.f39a60950a14

From the two stories above we can quantify the likelihood of the “targeted murder theory. 6% (homicides where the women didn’t know her killer) * 1% (deaths by strangulation, actually the number is given as less than 1% but I’ll use 1%) = 6/100 * 1/100 = 6/10,000 = 1 in 1,667. I highly recommend reading the two stories.

Of course there’s a chance they were targeted by someone they knew well. However zero evidence has come forth at this time. In that scenario still the likelihood of death by strangulation is still extremely rare.

2. Older men are more likely than younger men to commit murder suicide. Online it states that the couples 75+ are the highest risk group. I realize that both of them weren’t 75+ but Barry was 75. Online it also states that in the scenario where the man is 75+ the man typically has a dominant personality. https://www.officer.com/on-the-street/body-armor-protection/article/10744560/murdersuicide-when-killing-yourself-isnt-enough

3. Article in the globe and mail stated gossip was going around that Honey had recently insulted Barry at a party and told him that it would take 2 billion dollars to get rid of her. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-its-been-a-year-since-barry-and-honey-sherman-were-killed-why-do-we/

This story provides a possible motive.

OTHER THOUGHTS

1. I'll be happy to consider any evidence to the contrary. Let's see the photos of the hitmen, the footprints in the snow, the eyewitnesses who saw a strange van parked down the street etc. The obvious reason why no video has been released is there is no video evidence of anything.

2. If Honey was found alone murdered with no signs of forced entry and no robbery who’s on the suspect list?

Only Barry

3. Private Investigation Team/Media Belief:

Group of trained killers committed the crime.

Does not fit any crime data for this crime and is not supported by any evidence aside from David Chiasson’s wrist markings which are likely/possibly bruises or offensive/defensive wounds from the crime. David Chiasson came up with this theory with the help of the private detectives. Since he was hired by the family I assume he is getting paid and even if he did it for free he realizes his role is to help the defense/family and to suggest an alternate theory. He is not there to agree with the police. Honey has signs of a struggle on her lip and nose, Barry does not. An obvious conclusion is that he wasn’t attacked. Since someone in the house attacked Honey and there were only two people in the house Barry has to have been the attacker unless other evidence comes forward.

4. Susan Gomes Motivation/Psychological difficulties in stating murder/suicide hypothesis.

She has a desire to please John Tory and the Sherman's friends and family.

Fear of media criticism and fear of seeing prominent Torontonians criticize her theory in the media.

Seemed to have a need to have someone to agree with. David Chiasson is a natural to help her with this and has the advantage of selling his theory to a person who apparently is desperate to not rule murder/suicide. Since only Chiasson and the private team promoted the double homicide theory Gomes needed someone to take her off the hot seat and allow her a resolution which would please John Tory, Sherman supporters, and the family. Does anyone know if Susan Gomes worked with David Chiasson previously? She seems old enough to have. Chiasson worked for Ontario from 1994-2000.

5. Gomes didn’t provide any justification for her theories – hints at flimsy justification.

Gomes was going to be faced with enormous media/legal pressure if she ruled murder/suicide. Joe Warmington at the Toronto Sun said in a recent podcast that it was difficult to tell his boss Paul Godfrey at the Toronto Sun that the police were saying murder/suicide early on. Why does his boss feel so strongly about it that his own reporter finds it difficult to discuss it with him? Does this type of issue exist at other media outlets?

Loss of nerve or desire to please family and she knows Tory, Trudeau, Wynne, all attended funeral. If John Tory didn’t come by to talk to the police they would have just done their job quickly. Tory likely turned this into a six week investigation and paralyzed his police investigation team.

Gomes repeatedly said that her theory was based on six weeks of detective work. She failed to give any additional information then or now. She can’t be criticized if she hides behind a need to “protect the investigation”

6. Simon Giannini case – video of shooter in steakhouse released four days later

Barry Sherman case – no video released thirteen months later although police collected 2,000 hours of video (conclusion, no video evidence)

7. Properties appear to be fenced all around them which makes it very unlikely anyone could sneak in through a back yard or side yard. This is from the real estate listing online. Have not driven by the house so this could be incorrect but I doubt it.

8. High end property real estate sales showings will likely/always have both agents present as seller’s agent will have relatively few showings and the payoff to the seller’s agent is likely huge. House is not likely available for pop-ins by everyday real estate agent. List of people who saw the house is extremely unlikely to have anyone other than wealthy people who have nothing to do with this case and will be very short. People have to show up front that they can afford the house before they can even tour it typically.

9. Do they have an alarm in house?? Did it go off?? Apparently not.

10. Family’s reward of $10 million dollars has produced no evidence.

11. Some are stating that the police waited too long to begin the investigation and the killers got a six week head start. It’s obvious that any neighbors or people who drove through the area that night and saw anything suspicious would have brought that information to the police. The person who lives next door to Sherman for instance would be terrified if they had seen some strange individuals in the area that day or night and immediately want to talk about it with the police.

12. I heard there was a disagreement about the building of the Sherman’s new home. Barry was not in favor but Honey was. They spoke with an architect the last time they were seen in public together. Has the architect made any comments about how well they were getting along at these meetings?

13. If the family wanted a second autopsy an independent person from say Buffalo or Ottawa should have come to do it rather than someone hired by the family. That way the person could state things like “markings on the wrist, possibly from rope, also possibly from defensive wounds etc.” Instead you have someone doing an autopsy with an agenda preset. Not to say he’s being dishonest but presenting an unlikely hypothetical as what likely happened.


Evidence for double murder provided so far by the defense team

1. Says police didn’t find an earring they found in yard.

2. Say the police didn’t vacuum up some dust at the crime scene.

3. Brian Greenspan says things like if the police had checked all entry points to the house they would have found it but fails to state what the entry point is. (Conclusion: he’s making this up/speculating)

4. Chief Saunders has made the bizarre statement that he has to be careful because he “knows” the killer or killers are listening. (This is extremely strange because on a regular basis the police put suspect photos into media circulation along with their names and ask them to get a lawyer and turn themselves in).


FINAL CONCLUSION:

In my opinion based on all the evidence I’m aware of the balance of evidence at this time clearly supports murder suicide. The statistical likelihood of double homicide for this type of crime is extremely small. When combined with the complete lack of evidence that Susan Gomes has produced (her entire press conference was “I’m not going to explain my theory” (likely because it was entirely based on her talk with the pathologist for the defense team)) I don’t see any reason to believe that double homicide has occurred.

Two people were in the house that night. They both died with no evidence of anyone else being present. Unless any new evidence comes out I’ve made up my mind.

I appreciate your well thought out post and that you cited references.
 
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