Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #12

[dotr]

Thanks dotr. I paid the fee to subscribe, but the story didn’t really tell us imo what really swayed the police to proclaim it a double murder. No conclusive info regarding whether their wrists were bound at some point (in fact the article seems to raise the possibility that these could be old markings on the wrists), and also no conclusion or definitive answer re what was used to cause the ligature neck compression- the belts or something else?

Turns out The Sherman’s house had been broken into within 2 years of the deaths, through a skylight. That may be why police were on the roof. Numerous breaking had occurred in the neighbourhood within a few years of the deaths.

Finally, my impression of the original pathologist based on the article was that he seemed relatively inexperienced. Did you get the same impression?

Thinking the m/m versus m/s came down to the hyoid bone. Neither B nor HS had a fractured one, which apparently would signify murder.
Earlier research by the pathologists showed that this is not necessarily true. a
imo, speculation.
Barry and Honey Sherman: how the second autopsy revealed it was a double murder | The Star

"Barry Sherman’s hyoid bone had been removed in the earlier autopsy by Pickup. But through information provided to Chiasson that day, he came to understand that neither Barry nor Honey’s hyoid bone was fractured. Chiasson wondered if that was why police thought it was a murder-suicide. As he had shown with his research years before, a murder with a soft ligature could leave an intact hyoid.rbbm

 

[ldlager]

In fact the deciding factor for m/m seems to be the notion that the belts weren’t long enough and/or the bodies weren’t heavy enough to have caused strangulation while hanging from the railing. This is curious as neither Chiasson or the private detectives actually saw the crime scene, they only saw pictures. The original pathologist did not reach that conclusion in conducting his examination, and he in fact attended the crime scene and viewed the bodies hanging.

This gets more curious every day, and more unexplained things give one reason to start to question the conclusions!

 

[dotr]

Wondering about jail suicides/murders and if it is typical to find the prisoner hanging from the cell bars? speculation.

 

[deugirtni]

TorontoStar on Twitter

 

[nuff]

. The original pathologist did not reach that conclusion in conducting his examination, and he in fact attended the crime scene and viewed the bodies hanging.

This gets more curious every day, and more unexplained things give one reason to start to question the conclusions!

The descriptions of the bodies have suggested they were sitting, not "hanging", as in suspended from their necks. Were there not crime scene photos (or do I read too many US and UK thrillers?)

 

[Deleted member 102539]

One week until the book release>>>>

E-book just preordered, ha!

 

[dotr]

Another link for the Sherman articles. The coats they are wearing were the epitome of cool back in the day, even BS looks hip !
Barry and Honey Sherman: how the second autopsy revealed it was a double murder

Barry and Honey Sherman in the mid-1970s. - Supplied

 

[kiwi50]

Another link for the Sherman articles. The coats they are wearing were the epitome of cool back in the day, even BS looks hip !
Barry and Honey Sherman: how the second autopsy revealed it was a double murder

Barry and Honey Sherman in the mid-1970s. - Supplied

When I look at that picture from the 70s, I cant imagine they ever had anything in common.
If Barry hadnt been so rich I think Honey would have been gone years ago. I’d imagine they led totally separate lives.
I know its not cool to speak ill of the dead, but I cant imagine liking Barry Sherman under any circumstances.

 

[human]

Wow.They were broken into via a skylight.
One would think after a break in that they would have lots of secure measures in the home

 

[tarabull]

Just a reference to the Sherman case in the news FWIW

COUPLE DEAD: Man, woman found covered in blood at Toronto condo
Oct 26 2019

Snipped...
...Police have been criticized before for rushing to judgement — specifically on the day almost two years ago when Honey and Barry Sherman were found dead in their North York home.

However, the situation at the Midtown condo is also complicated and police are doing their due diligence to ensure the appropriate team investigates the tragic deaths.

 

[nuff]

E-book just preordered, ha!

Donovan's going to do well. Curious how many here have NOT pre-ordered?

 

[deugirtni]

Just a reference to the Sherman case in the news FWIW

COUPLE DEAD: Man, woman found covered in blood at Toronto condo
Oct 26 2019

Snipped...
...Police have been criticized before for rushing to judgement — specifically on the day almost two years ago when Honey and Barry Sherman were found dead in their North York home.

However, the situation at the Midtown condo is also complicated and police are doing their due diligence to ensure the appropriate team investigates the tragic deaths.

Might this suggest the appropriate team was *not* utilized initially, in investigating the Sherman deaths?

 

[ldlager]

Donovan's going to do well. Curious how many here have NOT pre-ordered?

I have not, but I’m an old fashioned go to the bookstore kind of guy, so I will be there as soon as it’s on the shelves. I might be inside most of next weekend reading......

 

[deugirtni]

It really bothers me that it seems so many may have trudged through the crimescene to get to the bodies, before homicide detectives secured the premises. Somewhere recently I read that EMS were on site, etc. even though the bodies were clearly already deceased. And although at some point early on, homicide was on site, they did not have control of the case until later. At least that is my understanding, so imo.

 

[ldlager]

It really bothers me that it seems so many may have trudged through the crimescene to get to the bodies, before homicide detectives secured the premises. Somewhere recently I read that EMS were on site, etc. even though the bodies were clearly already deceased. And although at some point early on, homicide was on site, they did not have control of the case until later. At least that is my understanding, so imo.

Agreed. And Today’s Toronto Star new excerpt certainly paints quite an unflattering picture of the TPS’ investigation in the early days- no urgency, failure to view videos and follow up on leads on a timely basis, detectives working multiple days with no sleep, etc. So disturbing if accurate, and disheartening to all of us who surely want these murderers arrested and this crime solved.

When this book is available and widely read, I am sure that Chief Saunders will face some very pointed questions about their investigation methods and procedures from the press and the public.

 

[dotr]

Just a reference to the Sherman case in the news FWIW

COUPLE DEAD: Man, woman found covered in blood at Toronto condo
Oct 26 2019

Snipped...
...Police have been criticized before for rushing to judgement — specifically on the day almost two years ago when Honey and Barry Sherman were found dead in their North York home.

However, the situation at the Midtown condo is also complicated and police are doing their due diligence to ensure the appropriate team investigates the tragic deaths.

Caught my attention too, started thread..
Man&woman, found critically injured inToronto(Davisville/Yonge)apt.25 Oct/19

 

[deugirtni]

Agreed. And Today’s Toronto Star new excerpt certainly paints quite an unflattering picture of the TPS’ investigation in the early days- no urgency, failure to view videos and follow up on leads on a timely basis, detectives working multiple days with no sleep, etc. So disturbing if accurate, and disheartening to all of us who surely want these murderers arrested and this crime solved.

When this book is available and widely read, I am sure that Chief Saunders will face some very pointed questions about their investigation methods and procedures from the press and the public.

Can you or anyone else, elaborate on what the excerpts informed about (aside from the above) over this weekend? (In your own words of course?)

 

[dotr]

Another link( translation not great) for today's article.
Barry and Honey Sherman: The first 48 hours are critical to a murder. The police pretended that they were not in a hurry

 

[ldlager]

Summary of Toronto Sun article today:

Headline- Barry and Honey Sherman: The first 48 hours are crucial in a homicide. The police acted like they were in no rush
Apotex Security Tapes
- it took 3 days after the murders for LE to arrive at Apotex and ask for security videotape
- detective that arrived had been up for 3 days straight
- detective downloaded 4 days of security video and left. Apotex security had noted all relevant dates times of barry's entering and leaving the building
- barry left the building at 8.30 pm on Wed night
- a full month later, LE contacted the APO security offfice and said "...We just got around to looking at the footage, and we can’t read it on our system...” . Turns out the police system couldn't access the Apotex tapes
- Apo security converted the file and reissued it to LE

Neighbour Security Tapes
- neighbours of Shermans advised LE on the day the bodies were discovered that their own house security tapes had also filmed the Sherman residence. The tapes would auto- erase or tape over after 7 days, (so Friday's tape would presumably still have Wed night, the night of the murders), and so time was of the essence
- LE said they would send someone over for the tapes that day. No one showed up.
- the next day, the neighbours walked across the street and said they had the tapes. LE said they would send someone over. No one showed up.
- Sunday, the next day, the neighbours were leaving on a ski trip. They called LE, who sent someone over for the tapes. Neighbours noted for LE where on the tapes (date, time) the mystery man that visited the Sherman's house on Thursday could be located
- six weeks later, a detective showed up at their house with some questions about a couple that had been reported walking on the street. The neighbours asked the detective about the mystery man on the tapes they had given to LE. The detective responded " “What man?” She went on to explain that she had been "working non-stop, had significant daycare issues to deal with in her family, and that she had to “rely on my team” to scan the video and tell her what was on it"

Mystery 911 call
The article also talks about the mystery 911 call from down the street at the same time that the mystery man was at the Sherman's house.

 

[rickcross]

To me all this supposed incompetence sounds more like TPS having pretty much concluded this was a murder/suicide from very early on. Its not that they neglected to collect video evidence, it just wasn't a priority given the direction the investigation was heading.

For me the big question is what evidence made them change their minds and declare it M/M. IMO the coroner information seems very speculative at best. The actual coroner seems to have deemed it inconclusive. Chaisson had a firmer opinion, but he was being paid by the family and they were obviously dead against the M/S theory.

Until I see one solid piece of evidence that proves beyond a doubt that this was a double murder, I'll stay on the M/S side of the fence.