Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #12

[deugirtni]

IMO the bodies were placed in the basement to avoid detection for as long as possible. I don't think it has anything to do with facing a certain direction or a certain wall, or to send any specific message in the way they were positioned. Given that the murders were supposedly committed at night, it may not have been possible for the murderer(s) to catch a plane until the following day (assuming they were from outside Canada). I believe the murderers were well out of the country before the bodies were discovered.
Now as for who hired them........

Sure, hide them in the basement... but hang them up by the pool with belts, presumably after they were already dead? Whether they had time, or left the country, or had a plane to catch, or obviously wanted to avoid detection, how is this staging explained?

 

[WINDSOR]

Maybe not, but it seems not everyone is as happy with this as the Toronto mayor appears to be. Nor were some expecting it. I am getting that he may care more about political relationships than looking out for his staff.

But Mike McCormack, TPA president, said he hopes the next police chief will be more supportive of frontline officers, providing them with the supports and tools they need to do the job.

“In the new chief, they’re going to want to see somebody that is addressing the concerns from the frontline,” McCormack said. “There’s a total disconnect right now between this chief and our officers on the street.

The police service is in total disarray, he said, with officers experiencing burn out and low morale.

Meanwhile, gun violence has steadily increased over the past four years, he said.

“We’re surprised that the chief was renewed, quite honestly,” McCormack said.

‘WE’RE SURPRISED’: Toronto Police Chief Saunders has contract extended
---
Last year, the union held a no-confidence vote amid what the union called “critically low” levels of officers and morale, saying hiring was not happening fast enough. The vote — wholly symbolic, because the board employs the chief — found that 86 per cent of officers polled did not have confidence in Saunders’ leadership, though less than half of the association’s 7,300 members voted.

Saunders given extra year as Toronto’s top cop. Chief’s critics say extension ‘not a ringing endorsement’ | The Star

Mike McCormack, has been unhappy with every Police Chief Toronto has ever had (maybe not his father) As the head of the Police Union he acts as if his job is to defend the rank and file, regardless of their actions, and criticize Police leadership and management regardless of their actions.

Asking Mike what he thinks of Saunders, is equivalent of asking Lenin what he thought of the Czar!

 

[ldlager]

It has been announced that Chief Saunders of the TPS has been given a one year extension of his contract until April 30, 2021. I would think the Toronto Police Services Board is fairly satisfied with the Chief's work, as this is only the second time in forty years a chief has gotten a contract extension.

Now are the conspiracy theorists going to claim that Saunders is getting a pay-off because he squashed the murder -suicide investigation?

I don’t think they will claim he quashed the murder suicide investigation. But they will claim he is quashing the murder investigation,!!!

 

[ldlager]

Sure, hide them in the basement... but hang them up by the pool with belts, presumably after they were already dead? Whether they had time, or left the country, or had a plane to catch, or obviously wanted to avoid detection, how is this staging explained?

I have posted previously, using specific ( gory unfortunately) examples of other bodies that were positioned as they were. In certain countries and/or cultures it appears that some murder or execution victims are evidently sometimes displayed or positioned in this way. I don’t know why.

 

[ABro]

I have posted previously, using specific ( gory unfortunately) examples of other bodies that were positioned as they were. In certain countries and/or cultures it appears that some murder or execution victims are evidently sometimes displayed or positioned in this way. I don’t know why.

I must have missed this. And I have never heard such a thing. What’s more, at the news conference, Greenspan seemed completely baffled by the staging.

Given that many people believe that understanding the staging is key to understanding the murder, it would be helpful to understand what exactly these pictures that you found show.

Unfortunately I could not find these posts of yours so a link would be helpful.

Are you saying that murder victims are displayed hanging in a seated position in certain cultures? That’s certainly relevant information if it can be backed up.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I must have missed this. And I have never heard such a thing. What’s more, at the news conference, Greenspan seemed completely baffled by the staging.

Given that many people believe that understanding the staging is key to understanding the murder, it would be helpful to understand what exactly these pictures that you found show.

Unfortunately I could not find these posts of yours so a link would be helpful.

Are you saying that murder victims are displayed hanging in a seated position in certain cultures? That’s certainly relevant information if it can be backed up.

I’m not @ldlager, but I think this is the post:

Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #7

 

[ABro]

Thank you for the link, which shows a public execution in Iran. It is very unsettling so please proceed with caution.

It does not show bodies positioned like the Shermans. It shows an execution style hanging with the body suspended in the air many feet above the ground. Then the body is put on a stretcher and taken away. At one point in the transfer process the body is shown in a seated position. It could have been as little as a second or two. It is not suspended in such a position for display.

There is no reference to the displaying of bodies in a seated or semi-seated position.

 

[rickcross]

It has been announced that Chief Saunders of the TPS has been given a one year extension of his contract until April 30, 2021. I would think the Toronto Police Services Board is fairly satisfied with the Chief's work, as this is only the second time in forty years a chief has gotten a contract extension.

Now are the conspiracy theorists going to claim that Saunders is getting a pay-off because he squashed the murder -suicide investigation?

If you look back at the history, TPS Chiefs seem to stay in the position exactly 5 years. The exception being Bill Blair who stayed 10 years. Boyd, Fantino, Boothby, McCormack, Marks, and Ackroyd all did 5 year stints. The one year contract extension will put Saunders in his 5th year.

Are they Happy with Saunders? I'm not sure that TPS's track record over the past four years has been anything to brag about, but I guess it could be worse. A one year contract extension isn't exactly a great endorsement if you ask me, kind of akin to be being put on probation. If they were happy with him, a 5 year extension would have been more appropriate.

 

[rickcross]

IMO the bodies were placed in the basement to avoid detection for as long as possible. I don't think it has anything to do with facing a certain direction or a certain wall, or to send any specific message in the way they were positioned. Given that the murders were supposedly committed at night, it may not have been possible for the murderer(s) to catch a plane until the following day (assuming they were from outside Canada). I believe the murderers were well out of the country before the bodies were discovered.
Now as for who hired them........

Or maybe they were in the basement because the railing was the most suitable place for a self hanging?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Or maybe they were in the basement because the railing was the most suitable place for a self hanging?

Or the killer(s) chose the pool area because they possibly washed down the bodies and themselves with chlorinated water?

My opinion only, speculation.

 

[human]

Or maybe they were in the basement because the railing was the most suitable place for a self hanging?

Lots of railings available such as the stairs

 

[ldlager]

I’m not @ldlager, but I think this is the post:

Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #7

Thank you Lexi, that saves me a lot of time!

 

[ldlager]

Thank you for the link, which shows a public execution in Iran. It is very unsettling so please proceed with caution.

It does not show bodies positioned like the Shermans. It shows an execution style hanging with the body suspended in the air many feet above the ground. Then the body is put on a stretcher and taken away. At one point in the transfer process the body is shown in a seated position. It could have been as little as a second or two. It is not suspended in such a position for display.

There is no reference to the displaying of bodies in a seated or semi-seated position.

Thanks for your comment.
The Sherman’s were apparently killed by strangulation before they were strapped to the railing. My point is, whether it’s Iran or Mexico, or certain other countries, eexecutions and murders are commonly taking place in which the dead bodies are left hanging or suspended on display. I don’t believe There was anywhere in the basement to suspend the bodies from that was higher than the pool railing. So that’s where they were left.
Imo these were murders carried out by professional killers, and I believe these killers could have been exposed to and committed murders in a foreign country.
If another poster has some other explanation for why the Sherman’s were strapped to the railing please post your views!

 

[ABro]

Thanks for your comment.
The Sherman’s were apparently killed by strangulation before they were strapped to the railing. My point is, whether it’s Iran or Mexico, or certain other countries, eexecutions and murders are commonly taking place in which the dead bodies are left hanging or suspended on display. I don’t believe There was anywhere in the basement to suspend the bodies from that was higher than the pool railing. So that’s where they were left.
Imo these were murders carried out by professional killers, and I believe these killers could have been exposed to and committed murders in a foreign country.
If another poster has some other explanation for why the Sherman’s were strapped to the railing please post your views!

You make a valid point that the staging could be a representation of an execution.

The manner of the staging is the essential mystery of this case. But there is no support for your claim that bodies are regularly displayed like this in other cultures. Nothing you have cited backs that up.

I also think the idea that the Shermans were strung up next to a pool because that was the “most suitable” place, as rickcross maintains, is ridiculous.

There were multiple reports that Honey was killed elsewhere and moved to the basement. Her face was bloodied. Barry was a smart guy. He would know that no one would think she hanged herself.

So what was the point of hanging Honey? Why does rickcross think Barry would do such a thing? What was his goal in dragging her body to the pool as opposed to leaving it where it was and killing himself? What was the point of having the two bodies hanging side by side with the coats/jackets positioned as they were?

Whether double murder or murder suicide, This wasn’t simply a “practical” decision. The staging is unnecessary either way. It happened for another reason.

 

[MistyWaters]

Thanks for your comment.
The Sherman’s were apparently killed by strangulation before they were strapped to the railing. My point is, whether it’s Iran or Mexico, or certain other countries, eexecutions and murders are commonly taking place in which the dead bodies are left hanging or suspended on display. I don’t believe There was anywhere in the basement to suspend the bodies from that was higher than the pool railing. So that’s where they were left.
Imo these were murders carried out by professional killers, and I believe these killers could have been exposed to and committed murders in a foreign country.
If another poster has some other explanation for why the Sherman’s were strapped to the railing please post your views!

There were stair cases throughout the house. But notice all the windows too? Lights on during the night, who might be looking in? I’d be surprised if the execution was immediate and hasty given it appears to me hatred and revenge was involved in the motive. Unlike gunfire, strangulation is not sudden and the victims would’ve been bound so to prevent peering eyes from outside, the basement would be an obvious crime scene IMO.

As for the way in which the bodies were staged, it mimics the sitting position of how Robin Williams was found after he died by suicide, including the use of belt although it was tied to a closet door, not a railing. Therefore the manner in which the Sherman’s were staged doesn’t necessarily represent a foreign assassination.


Murder-suicide suspected in deaths of Toronto billionaire and wife

 

[Lexiintoronto]

You make a valid point that the staging could be a representation of an execution.

The manner of the staging is the essential mystery of this case. But there is no support for your claim that bodies are regularly displayed like this in other cultures. Nothing you have cited backs that up.

I also think the idea that the Shermans were strung up next to a pool because that was the “most suitable” place, as rickcross maintains, is ridiculous.

There were multiple reports that Honey was killed elsewhere and moved to the basement. Her face was bloodied. Barry was a smart guy. He would know that no one would think she hanged herself.

So what was the point of hanging Honey? Why does rickcross think Barry would do such a thing? What was his goal in dragging her body to the pool as opposed to leaving it where it was and killing himself? What was the point of having the two bodies hanging side by side with the coats/jackets positioned as they were?

Whether double murder or murder suicide, This wasn’t simply a “practical” decision. The staging is unnecessary either way. It happened for another reason.

Interesting questions.

I’d like hear your opinion as to why you might think the state of the victims and the scene of the crime were leaked to the media.

(TPS, and later Greenspan, confirmed most of that ‘sourced’ information.)

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Regarding the staging:

*caution graphic and disturbing *


I’ve posted this before, but I spent time in El Chapo’s violent home city of Culiacan, Sinaloa Mexico.

Drug cartels would frequently hang the remains of their victims from bridges, usually in groups. Or display the remains in other equally graphic ways.

It happened recently in another part of Mexico: Mexican drug gang 'hangs nine bodies from bridge'

The newspapers, in varying degrees, would run graphic photos of the deceased.

My view of the graphic staging:
- to strike fear or as a show of force. The cartels would usually take ownership of the murders, but usually there were no arrests.

-to send the message to the public: the deceased must have done something very bad in order to have been murdered, have their bodies mutilated and displayed so disrespectfully.

-the deceased were usually very young. Normally the deaths of young people would strike a chord of public sympathy. An effort would be made to find justice. However, if the victims are made to be part of the drug trade/meddling in some way, the public won’t have empathy or interest in the deceased. No ground swelling from the public to put an end to the violence.

ETA: Possibly the staging of the Shermans is similar to Mexican drug cartel staging:

‘this was deserved, they were involved in criminal elements where these brutal deaths are part of the world they were a part of.

Don’t look as them as senior citizens, hardworking, beloved people-see them as people who must have done something terrible for someone to have killed them this way.’

 

[WINDSOR]

Regarding the staging:

*caution graphic and disturbing *


I’ve posted this before, but I spent time in El Chapo’s violent home city of Culiacan, Sinaloa Mexico.

Drug cartels would frequently hang the remains of their victims from bridges, usually in groups. Or display the remains in other equally graphic ways.

It happened recently in another part of Mexico: Mexican drug gang 'hangs nine bodies from bridge'

The newspapers, in varying degrees, would run graphic photos of the deceased.

My view of the graphic staging:
- to strike fear or as a show of force. The cartels would usually take ownership of the murders, but usually there were no arrests.

-to send the message to the public: the deceased must have done something very bad in order to have been murdered, have their bodies mutilated and displayed so disrespectfully.

-the deceased were usually very young. Normally the deaths of young people would strike a chord of public sympathy. An effort would be made to find justice. However, if the victims are made to be part of the drug trade/meddling in some way, the public won’t have empathy or interest in the deceased. No ground swelling from the public to put an end to the violence.

ETA: Possibly the staging of the Shermans is similar to Mexican drug cartel staging:

‘this was deserved, they were involved in criminal elements where these brutal deaths are part of the world they were a part of.

Don’t look as them as senior citizens, hardworking, beloved people-see them as people who must have done something terrible for someone to have killed them this way.’

Lexi, excellent points.
I am reminded of the film Road to Perdition, where one of the hitmen poses the bodies for pictures of the people he is killing/or has killed. I wonder if there is a photographic record of the Sherman's deaths as gruesome as that may sound? That alone would justify the staging of the bodies. So the staging of the bodies could have served one of two purposes; for a message to others,( which I initially believed was the reason) or to record the event for the individual(s) who ordered the crime. Since I believe the individual who ordered the crime is highly successful in business, and by all appearances is considered to be mainstream. However I believe he/they have some serious behavioral issues, and requesting a photographic record would not be too far fetched.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Lexi, excellent points.
I am reminded of the film Road to Perdition, where one of the hitmen poses the bodies for pictures of the people he is killing/or has killed. I wonder if there is a photographic record of the Sherman's deaths as gruesome as that may sound? That alone would justify the staging of the bodies. So the staging of the bodies could have served one of two purposes; for a message to others,( which I initially believed was the reason) or to record the event for the individual(s) who ordered the crime. Since I believe the individual who ordered the crime is highly successful in business, and by all appearances is considered to be mainstream. However I believe he/they have some serious behavioral issues, and requesting a photographic record would not be too far fetched.

Thank you. The same to you, and take your ideas a bit further—

From the Bloomberg article:

The lone surveillance camera at the house was located, oddly enough, in the pool area, but it hadn’t been turned on for a long time, perhaps years.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

I’m guessing that camera was set up so that the children could be monitored when in the pool.

Where might the monitor(s) be, if my guess is correct?

If the pool camera was utilized that night, might it have been used to watch the Shermans from upstairs (or on a phone)?

Why that rail in the pool area? It’s the only room with a camera.

 

[ldlager]

There were stair cases throughout the house. But notice all the windows too? Lights on during the night, who might be looking in? I’d be surprised if the execution was immediate and hasty given it appears to me hatred and revenge was involved in the motive. Unlike gunfire, strangulation is not sudden and the victims would’ve been bound so to prevent peering eyes from outside, the basement would be an obvious crime scene IMO.

As for the way in which the bodies were staged, it mimics the sitting position of how Robin Williams was found after he died by suicide, including the use of belt although it was tied to a closet door, not a railing. Therefore the manner in which the Sherman’s were staged doesn’t necessarily represent a foreign assassination.

View attachment 201212
Murder-suicide suspected in deaths of Toronto billionaire and wife

Of course it’s not necessarily a foreign assassination. That is only my opinion, based on what I have read regarding how they were murdered and staged. Others have other views of course