Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #13

[Windsorite]

My gut conclusion (which I'm aware lacks a scientifically measurable degree of qualification) heavily and strongly leans towards Jonathan Sherman.

I tend to agree, though the study located here gives me pause:
http://eknygos.lsmuni.lt/springer/605/73-87.pdf

 

[dotr]

I tend to agree, though the study located here gives me pause:
http://eknygos.lsmuni.lt/springer/605/73-87.pdf

Interesting report, this caught my attention.rbbm.

"Bivariate analyses suggested that the use of a ligature in homicidal strangulation may be associated with the offender being a female, drug user, the offender and victim being acquaintances rather than family members or intimate partners, and the motive being a drunken quarrel. In addition, in ligature strangulation cases ,other forms of violence were less frequent. It is interesting to note that previous research has suggested that because of the pre domination of female victims, homicidal strangulation may be associated with the physical disadvantage of the victim. This is, however, in contrast with a previous study showing that death by strangulation comprises only 4% of elderly homicide victims(59)
82H. Häkkänen
Thus, on the basis of the present results, it is interesting to hypothesize that the use of a ligature in homicidal strangulation may be due to the perceived physical disadvantage of the offender"

 

[WINDSOR]

http://eknygos.lsmuni.lt/springer/605/73-87.pdf,
One thing we must consider is the fact this was a study of cases in Finland that took place between 1996 and 2002. In this study I could not find one example of a double murder by ligature occurring.

Using an older study from a unique country (as compared to Canada) with no comparables, then applying the conclusions to a very unusual case like the Shermans, can lead to erroneous assumptions.

It is very difficult for me to accept that two victims were strangled, by a single person, let alone a female.

I wonder if there is any recent literature on double homicides by ligature.

 

[ldlager]

Murray Rubin, is wrong about the case being closed, it is still active and ongoing.
Secondly how does Murray Rubin know the reward money has had no effect, just because charges have not been laid yet, does not mean the TPS has not received concrete leads as a result of the reward.

I do agree the people involved probably do not need the money, however somebody on the periphery, may need the money, and may have some info.

Blank

 

[ldlager]

Agree

http://eknygos.lsmuni.lt/springer/605/73-87.pdf,
One thing we must consider is the fact this was a study of cases in Finland that took place between 1996 and 2002. In this study I could not find one example of a double murder by ligature occurring.

Using an older study from a unique country (as compared to Canada) with no comparables, then applying the conclusions to a very unusual case like the Shermans, can lead to erroneous assumptions.

It is very difficult for me to accept that two victims were strangled, by a single person, let alone a female.

I wonder if there is any recent literature on double homicides by ligature.

I agree completely, a lone female is most unlikely. Probably 2 assailants imo, 1 person of the 2 to keep watch. Moving and Lifting the victims to suspend them would have required strength imo, and 2 people would make it easier.
While I don’t think we know for sure if both victims were suspended with belts belonging to Barry, if so the killer would have had to go upstairs to Barry’s closet or similar to find the second belt. This could suggest some familiarity with the layout of the house.

 

[Windsorite]

I don't see any problem applying a Finnish study from the early 21st century.

Murder is as old as human history, and the motives are well known and extensively documented all over the world. Canada is not a special case, as the citations at the end of the study indicate.
The study is explicitly clear on it's limitations. And in fact does clearly demonstrate that the Sherman case is extremely unique.

The portion I found important was

"In all, 66% of the offenders were diagnosed as having alcohol dependence and 14% drug dependence. At the time of the killing, 72% of the offenders were intoxicated and 10% were under the influence of drugs. There was a tendency to ligature strangulation being more frequent among offenders with drug dependency (63 vs. 31%, P<12) and offenders who were under the influence of drugs during the killing (67 vs. 29%, P<08), but the differences only approached a significant level. A substantial proportion of the offenders had experienced severe problems in their childhood environment. Twenty percent of them had been subjected to institutional care, 36% had parents with alcohol problems, and 41% had experienced physical violence at home. In all, 54% of the offenders scored positive for at least one of these developmental variables."

Along with the associate rather than family correspondence.

We know the Shermans themselves didn't drink. We also know that certain Winter family members had a problem with drugs. Mary was reported by the Sherman children to have been drunk at events after the homicide. The Sherman children's predilections towards either? Unknown, though possibly not important.

If you'd like to discuss recent crime phenomena. How about Crime Scene Staging Dynamics?
And how Dr. Laura Pettler's assertions relate to the case?

 

[casesensitive]

This was an interesting read and I wish there was a more recent study subsequent to 2002. It is hard to cherry pick the comments and findings (which are admittedly restrictive) to fit the Sherman case when only 12% of the offenders claimed "family conflicts" as a motive for killing by ligature compression. Killing two family members at the same time by this method must be extremely rare imo. I wonder if TPS ever considered getting a psychological profile done for the Sherman murderer(s)?

This Finnish study would actually be comparable to a Canadian study. The FBI studies include homicide stats that are predominately caused by firearms which aren't as available in other countries. Their rate of ligature/strangulation methods are rare in comparison.


Murder - number of victims by weapons used | Statista
http://eknygos.lsmuni.lt/springer/605/73-87.pdf,

 

[dotr]

FWIW
Stumbled on to a case with similarities to this one, ie initially thought to be a murder/suicide, no forced entry, wife received more injuries than husband, adult children insist on second autopsy ect.
NJ - NJ - John, 72, & Joyce Sheridan, 69, Montgomery, 28 Sept 2014

Deaths of John and Joyce Sheridan - Wikipedia

 

[WINDSOR]

I don't see any problem applying a Finnish study from the early 21st century.

Murder is as old as human history, and the motives are well known and extensively documented all over the world. Canada is not a special case, as the citations at the end of the study indicate.
The study is explicitly clear on it's limitations. And in fact does clearly demonstrate that the Sherman case is extremely unique.

The portion I found important was

"In all, 66% of the offenders were diagnosed as having alcohol dependence and 14% drug dependence. At the time of the killing, 72% of the offenders were intoxicated and 10% were under the influence of drugs. There was a tendency to ligature strangulation being more frequent among offenders with drug dependency (63 vs. 31%, P<12) and offenders who were under the influence of drugs during the killing (67 vs. 29%, P<08), but the differences only approached a significant level. A substantial proportion of the offenders had experienced severe problems in their childhood environment. Twenty percent of them had been subjected to institutional care, 36% had parents with alcohol problems, and 41% had experienced physical violence at home. In all, 54% of the offenders scored positive for at least one of these developmental variables."

Along with the associate rather than family correspondence.

We know the Shermans themselves didn't drink. We also know that certain Winter family members had a problem with drugs. Mary was reported by the Sherman children to have been drunk at events after the homicide. The Sherman children's predilections towards either? Unknown, though possibly not important.

If you'd like to discuss recent crime phenomena. How about Crime Scene Staging Dynamics?
And how Dr. Laura Pettler's assertions relate to the case?

No doubt there is validity in the Finnish study, but really not too much new information, especially relating to the Shermans. Corrections Canada did a study a number of years ago, which found that individuals incarcerated in Canada, somewhere between 80% and 90% admitted being under the influence of drugs or alcohol when they committed their crimes.

As we all know alcohol and drugs negatively affect a person's ability to make sound judgements and good choices. Most clean and sober people tend not to kill people. In the Sherman case, on the surface it appears the killers were careful and meticulous in terms of not being observed or leaving evidence. I doubt if either drugs or alcohol were part of the perpetrator's scenario.

The usage of drugs by the Winter family members and alcohol by some Sherman family members is not that unusual in our Canadian society. Millions of Canadians drink alcohol, and many use drugs, especial cannabis which is now legal. Of these imbibers, 98% do not commit any crimes.

I did check on Laura Pettler's website and her techniques and successes are quite impressive. Now remember winning a wrongful death suit, or actually finding out what happened in a crime is a much lower bar than the TPS is striving for. The TPS are trying to solve the case, lay criminal charges and have the courts find the individuals responsible, guilty.

As an example OJ Simpson was found not guilty criminally in Nicole Brown's death, but was found responsible in the civil wrongful death suit.


I also wonder if the Sherman funded Greenspan investigative team ever considered using Laura Pettler's services? Or did they feel their team doing the same things she does. Conversely I wonder if Laura is/was interested in earning the $10,000,000.00 reward

 

[casesensitive]

FWIW
Stumbled on to a case with similarities to this one, ie initially thought to be a murder/suicide, no forced entry, wife received more injuries than husband, adult children insist on second autopsy ect.
NJ - NJ - John, 72, & Joyce Sheridan, 69, Montgomery, 28 Sept 2014

Deaths of John and Joyce Sheridan - Wikipedia

WOW.

 

[Satchie]

I also wonder if the Sherman funded Greenspan investigative team ever considered using Laura Pettler's services? Or did they feel their team doing the same things she does. Conversely I wonder if Laura is/was interested in earning the $10,000,000.00 reward

I wonder whether the family would donate the reward to TPS, if they solve the crime?

 

[casesensitive]

I wonder whether the family would donate the reward to TPS, if they solve the crime?

LE is paid a salary to solve the crime, unlike tipsters. But it makes you wonder what priority and effort they would put in a certain case if they were eligible for a reward.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

FWIW: Donovan retweeted a positive review for his book. Here’s the last line of it:

“However it's an important read, and while you might not finish it knowing exactly who killed this couple, you'll have a pretty good idea.”
'The Billionaire Murders' is, unfortunately, the book every Canadian murderino has been waiting for - Vancouver Is Awesome

 

[nuff]

FWIW: Donovan retweeted a positive review for his book. Here’s the last line of it:

“However it's an important read, and while you might not finish it knowing exactly who killed this couple, you'll have a pretty good idea.”
'The Billionaire Murders' is, unfortunately, the book every Canadian murderino has been waiting for - Vancouver Is Awesome

I agree with this, and felt that way when I finished it - but it's not a solution WS rules allow us to discuss here IMO.

 

[dotr]

I agree with this, and felt that way when I finished it - but it's not a solution WS rules allow us to discuss here IMO.

 

[Tobiano8th]

i too had noticed that last line from the "vancouver is awesome" publication book review. i.e. after reading the book, you have a pretty good idea.

but then that book reviewer goes and mentions (or alludes to) 2 different people/groups.

i get the feeling most people think the same as to who did it (and i do too), but i question how much public info there is to support that.

 

[Windsorite]

I doubt if either drugs or alcohol were part of the perpetrator's scenario.

This seems a particularly unsupported conclusion, based on the Canadian study you yourself
noted, that matches up with the Finnish findings. As armchair detectives, the whole point is
whether or not we have enough facts to lead us to a reasonable hypothesis. That's why I evaluated the stats to begin with. Every fact we know about is a possible lead, if analysed correctly.
I prefer to explore the case in this manner, rather than to attempt to make the facts fit my own personal theory. In this case I think it's more logical to assume that if the statistics are born out, TPS has evidence left by the killer or killers that we're not privy to.

If you apply Dr. Pettler's principles related to Crime Scene staging dynamics, we can learn for example that conflict is present in 100% of staged events. Which is definitely no surprise in this case. She also notes that there is always resolution and benefit for the offender. Even if the sole benefit is ending the conflict. Homicide is conflict resolution for the offender.
Another of her important notes is that location matters, the crime scene is a reflection of the personality of the offender.

 

[dotr]

Criminals always leave 'piece of their personality' at crime scenes: profiler
Robert Sibley rbbm.
February 18, 2015
"Speaking in general terms, Woods explained that criminals almost always “leave a piece of their personality” at the crime scene. “Even if they take every precaution they can, that reveals something about their personality. Even if they don’t do something, that tells us about their experience level.”

For instance, someone who stages a home invasion on an elderly person is likely seeking a target he can more readily dominate and control, says Woods, who, in his 35 years with the RCMP, acquired extensive experience in a variety of criminal investigations, including homicides, violent assaults and sexual assaults. And in most cases, says Woods, the motivation for a home invasion is financial."

"The nature of a crime scene — how much or how little violence was used — also says something about the criminal’s personality.

“The manner of (the victim’s) death and the type of weapons an offender brings or uses is really a matter of what the offender is comfortable with,” says Woods. “Some offenders might not like the idea of a messy, bloody scene and will see suffocation as a cleaner method of perpetrating the crime.”

Binding and gagging victims raises the question of how much planning the offender put into his actions. Did he bring his own restraints to use? Or did he find them at the scene? Either choice not only reveals the kind of planning (or lack of planning) but also the level of control he thought necessary to get away with the crime.''

 

[WINDSOR]

"I doubt if either drugs or alcohol were part of the perpetrator's scenario."
I made this conclusion based on the the following knowledge.

First in both the Canadian Corrections and Finnish studies, the absence of drugs and alcohol was involved in approximately 10% of the cases, a small yet significant percentage.

Secondly, the cases studied were cases solved, where the perpetrator was known. The Sherman case is unsolved, which could imply a scenario that does fit the usual analysis.

Third, there has been no mention of evidence of drug or alcohol usage at the crime scene. Now I understand the TPS could be withholding this info.

Fourth, There was no evidence of drug or alcohol consumption by the victims, which would have been discovered at the autopsy. Again the TPS could be withholding. If the perpetrators are users, it not unusual for the victims to be as well.

Fifth, the scene was neat and clean as initially discovered. No signs of disorder or confusion that one might find where drugs or alcohol could fuel recklessness or erratic behavior on the part of the perpetrators.

Some here on this forum are pretty sure they know who the perpetrator(s) are.

However consider the fact maybe the actual perpetrators were very meticulous, they went to the trouble to stage the bodies in a particular way and so on. Would they not also be astute enough to try and establish a scenario to point to someone else, and create reasonable doubt for a potential jury down the road?

 

[dotr]

However consider the fact maybe the actual perpetrators were very meticulous, they went to the trouble to stage the bodies in a particular way and so on. Would they not also be astute enough to try and establish a scenario to point to someone else, and create reasonable doubt for a potential jury down the road?

Rbsbm.
Totally agree that it is possible that someone devious established a scenario whereby certain others would look guilty.

Keeping an open mind on this case, there have been a number of suspects and motives that seemed like good contenders until the next one comes along, the latest is no different, imo.

One might even begin to consider that some entity wants to bring down the whole family/ businesses, and everyone associated with them.

Brilliance, or just dumb luck?

In the last quarter of this video, former Homicide Detective MM, expresses some doubt that this case will be solved, thinking atm, that the mastermind of this crime might be known, or will be soon- but proving it, will be another story/book.
speculation, imo.
Dec 30 2019
"Former Homicide Detective Mark Mendelson shares the top crime stories of 2019; including the B.C. manhunt after a series of bizarre murders and investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman."
@7:28