Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #13

[dotr]

On the matter of DNA, I cannot recall if the TPS ever stated they recovered DNA at the crime scene.

Is anybody aware if the TPS was collecting DNA samples from various family members, staff and other individuals they have interviewed for exclusionary or other purposes? If the TPS has not been collecting samples, I would tend to believe they did not find any random or unknown DNA at the site.

That means either the assailants were amazingly skilfull at not leaving any DNA or contaminating the scene in such a way that no useful DNA was recoverable, or the TPS just were not able to find any.

If no unknown DNA was discovered that could cause the TPS to focus
on a smaller group of Persons of Interest.

In summary has the TPS been doing DNA sampling?

29 minutes inside Barry and Honey Sherman’s home: Who was the visitor?
May 2019 rbbm
"Idsinga also said in the statement that police have recently obtained more search warrants — he did not say how many — and that "DNA samples" are also being reviewed."

"Another apparent shortcoming of police is tardiness in obtaining DNA samples from people who were known to be in the Sherman house for routine reasons or because they are family. Typically, police take DNA and fingerprints from people like this to rule them out as suspects. This process did not begin until nine months into the investigation."

 

[WINDSOR]

29 minutes inside Barry and Honey Sherman’s home: Who was the visitor?
May 2019 rbbm
"Idsinga also said in the statement that police have recently obtained more search warrants — he did not say how many — and that "DNA samples" are also being reviewed."

"Another apparent shortcoming of police is tardiness in obtaining DNA samples from people who were known to be in the Sherman house for routine reasons or because they are family. Typically, police take DNA and fingerprints from people like this to rule them out as suspects. This process did not begin until nine months into the investigation."

The fact that there was a substantial delay in acquiring DNA samples does not necessarily point to a shortcoming of the TPS. If the TPS recovered DNA from H&S's bodies or the crime scene and it was all familial, no need to check anybody else. Only if they found DNA that was not familial would they have to compare with non-family members. Secondly if they did not find any non-familial DNA, that does not mean anything at all. Strangers could have been involved in the crime, but did not leave any good DNA samples.

DNA is not always a 'smoking gun'. My DNA could have been found at the Sherman house. That does not mean I was involved in the crime, it only points to the fact the police should interview me as a person of interest. Remember the Sherman house was for sale and a number of individuals, agents, and clients were in the house over that time.

Again the TPS may have discovered other evidence that might have made DNA of lower importance. The TPS did say they had an idea of what happened.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Not O/T, but btw:
Barry was made his uncle’s legal heir when it seemed that Lou and his wife, Beverley, couldn’t have children. Then, in 1958, Lou and Beverley adopted a baby boy, Tim, and, as sometimes happens, Beverley became pregnant. She gave birth to Jeffrey in 1960, Kerry in 1961 and Dana in 1962.
How Barry Sherman built his multibillion-dollar fortune
bbm
It doesn't help the case , but I want to say, that strictly speaking, Barry had been cheated by his uncle before KW and siblings were born and the first son got adopted. In an unrelated turn, the children/now adults later felt having been cheated by their cousin BS.
One could ask: who is/was the most injured at all? (Of course, KW and siblings aren't responsible for what their father did decades ago.)

 

[Deleted member 102539]

The last hearing of the winter session will take place on Mar. 26; in Estate of Bernard Sherman v. Donovan, a Toronto Star investigative journalist is challenging the sealing orders for court files in relation to the highly publicized murders of billionaire Barry Sherman, CEO and founder of Apotex Inc., and his wife, Honey, in Toronto in December 2017.
Three provincial references and appeal in high-profile Ontario case feature in SCC’s winter line-up

 

[dotr]

By Kevin Donovan rbbm.
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered within hours of arriving home, Toronto police say

Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered within a few hours of arriving at their Toronto home on the evening of Wednesday, Dec. 13, 2017.

Homicide Inspector Hank Idsinga confirmed to the Star this week that "after considering a number of factors that were uncovered during the investigation" his detectives have determined the Shermans were murdered on the Wednesday.''

''Idsinga would not reveal what the "factors" are that have allowed police and forensic officers to pinpoint the time of death, saying that to reveal detailed information about the case would jeopardize the homicide probe, now into its third year.''

Something — homicide detectives will not say what — has caused them to pinpoint the time of death as between the time the Shermans arrived home and midnight on Wednesday, Dec. 13, 2017.''

ETA
"Forensic sources have told the Star that it would be difficult to pinpoint a time of death two days later, given that the bodies were found in a humid environment."

 

[dotr]

Jan 15 2020 By Kevin Donovan
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered within hours of arriving home, Toronto police say | The Star
''It was Hanukkah, and emails exchanged between Honey, Barry and their daughter Alexandra Krawczyk show plans for a get-together were being discussed. At one point, the get-together was suggested for the Wednesday night.

Beginning on the afternoon of Saturday, Dec. 9, Alexandra emailed her parents: “Hi mom and dad, Would you like to come over on Tuesday or Wednesday evening? We can light the Hannukah candles and maybe you can bring us some egg-free latkas?” Alexandra and her husband, Brad, have two children, one of them a newborn at the time. The “egg-free” suggestion relates to their first child, who has a food allergy. On the email chain is Honey, Barry, Brad and Alexandra.

The next day, Honey emailed the same group, saying: “Both work for me. Barry? Xoxo.”


''A few minutes later on the Tuesday, Alexandra replied to the group, saying: “Can we hold off on tonight’s (Tuesday) visit and just see you on Friday? We are looking forward to it and thank you so much for making egg free latkas, I know it is a hassle and it means a lot to us — thank you!”


Honey responds a few minutes later, “no problem — any gift suggestions?????? have a clear ball that lights up when you bounce it.” Alexandra responds, saying: “Wow! He will love it! Thank you!”

Honey confirms the plans later in the day on Tuesday, writing to the group: “we will b there at 6 will b bringing latkas, presents, dessert that (child’s name) can eat.”

 

[WINDSOR]

I believe this TPS announcement about the time of death confirms what most of us already believed.
Since there was no sign of activity by the Shermans after Wednesday night, I guessed the crime was committed Wednesday night.

I notice the visit to Alexandra's was initially to take place on Tuesday or Wednesday evening. Then it was rescheduled for Friday by Alexandra. I doubt there is much significance to that point.

I am a little perplexed though why the TPS released this confirmation of time of death at all. Was it just to show they are cooperating with the media, or did they have some other purpose?

If the TPS is focusing on a family member's involvement in the crime, is this release of information a means to say Alexandra is not involved (based on the warm and friendly details in the emails).

 

[ldlager]

I believe this TPS announcement about the time of death confirms what most of us already believed.
Since there was no sign of activity by the Shermans after Wednesday night, I guessed the crime was committed Wednesday night.

I notice the visit to Alexandra's was initially to take place on Tuesday or Wednesday evening. Then it was rescheduled for Friday by Alexandra. I doubt there is much significance to that point.

I am a little perplexed though why the TPS released this confirmation of time of death at all. Was it just to show they are cooperating with the media, or did they have some other purpose?

If the TPS is focusing on a family member's involvement in the crime, is this release of information a means to say Alexandra is not involved (based on the warm and friendly details in the emails).

Remember, someone came to the door and possibly went into the house for up to 30 minutes on the Thursday. Given that happened, I think, even in the absence of other information (which LE might have) LE can be fairly certain that the deaths occurred on the Wed night.

It is also interesting to me that KD specifically states "... On the email chain is Honey, Barry, Brad and Alexandra...". So other family members were evidently NOT on the email chain. However, could it be a reasonable assumption that other family members would have known about this dinner- I am not Jewish, but to those here who are or have knowledge of Jewish traditions, is it likely that other family members would have known about and/or been invited to this dinner? Perhaps via separate emails? I can't recall how KD in his book characterizes the family get together that DID happen on the Friday night after the murders, and whether he states that the gathering was already planned to include other family members as well.

Most interesting to me is that someone could have known that B and H were NOT going to their daughters on the Wed night. Barry did not evidently respond to the original invitation for Tues or Wed night. He (2 days later) responded to the revised invitation saying Tues was ok (which was again subsequently moved to Friday). I am presuming that by NOT responding to the original invitation, he may have implicitly been indicating that he was available either night- Tues or Wed. If someone else was going to be attending the proposed dinner on the Tues or Wed night, perhaps they would have been aware that Barry was available on either night? And if so, because the dinner on Tues or Wed was subsequently changed to Friday, could they have known that B and H would be at home on Tues and Wed night instead?

 

[dotr]

Timing of the deaths probably arrived at with the help of technology ie , emails, calls, texts, but...

Thinking of the OJ and Nicole S. case, and how LE tried to pinpoint the time of death by how long it could take for ice cream to melt, and lit candles to burn.
With that in mind, wondering if HS lit Hanukkah candles when she got home and/or started preparing (cooking/freezing/defrosting ect) the latkes?
Wild speculation (or maybe not) imo. fwiw

O.J. Trial Focuses on Melting Ice Cream / Defense tries to show that cops mishandled evidence
''The defense is expected to argue that the melting rate of the ice cream suggests that the crime took place later in the evening than alleged.''
NEWS ANALYSIS : Determining Time of Death Is Imprecise Science at Best : Simpson case: 'Quincy Syndrome' has set unrealistic expectations. But defense will try to exploit doubt.
“Time of death is one of the most recurring issues in murder cases, but I know of no subject in the entire arena of forensic pathology that is so rife with misunderstanding,” said James E. Starrs, professor of law and forensic sciences at George Washington University.

In fact, during his cross-examination of Fuhrman, defense lawyer F. Lee Bailey acknowledged that “no doctor can ever say (a) victim died at 32 1/2 minutes past the hour. It’s not that precise.”

But because the burden of proof is on the prosecutors, anything that happened during the investigation to make it more difficult to assess the time of death becomes their problem at trial.

“I don’t think you will have much more narrowing of the time of death than we have now, and that benefits the defense,” said Los Angeles lawyer Barry Levin, a former LAPD officer who has represented numerous defendants in homicide cases. “The defense will argue that Simpson shouldn’t be penalized because the coroner didn’t get there sooner.”
''Defense lawyers also chided officers for failing to perform tests to determine how long candles had been burning throughout Nicole Simpson’s condo on the night of the murders''

“Determining the time of death is a very inexact art, to say the least,” said Dr. Paul Herman, a respected Oakland pathologist, expressing a widely held view that prosecutors Marcia Clark and Christopher A. Darden would like the jury to adopt.

The reason is simple: If there are limitations on how precisely the time of death can be pinpointed, it helps prosecutors minimize miscues made by police and the coroner’s office.''

These Make-Ahead Latkes Just Saved Your Hanukkah Party

 

[Jay78]

How many people think, just based on the comments that some in LE have made and what KD is publishing that there is going to be a break in this case soon? I really feel like, for some reason, like an arrest is coming.

 

[dotr]

How many people think, just based on the comments that some in LE have made and what KD is publishing that there is going to be a break in this case soon? I really feel like, for some reason, like an arrest is coming.

Yup, it feels like there might be an arrest soon, or at least a suspect named!
On the other hand, maybe the perp is being goaded into doing something rash, imo, speculation.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

How many people think, just based on the comments that some in LE have made and what KD is publishing that there is going to be a break in this case soon? I really feel like, for some reason, like an arrest is coming.

I agree with you.

In my view it’s unusual that the Toronto police are publicly narrowing down the time of death. Think of what that may mean to the killer(s) and their alibi(s) and prosecuting them. It narrows the window of opportunity to a small time-frame.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Yup, it feels like there might be an arrest soon, or at least a suspect named!
On the other hand, maybe the perp is being goaded into doing something rash, imo, speculation.

Your comment reminded me of something Donovan previously wrote: the police said they wanted to keep the subject matter of the warrants sealed so that the killer(s) won’t destroy evidence they may have.

 

[GinaSeikwa]

I lent my book out to a friend so I can’t double check but I remember reading that the meeting with the architect’s at Apotex on Wednesday evening was originally scheduled for the Tuesday evening and subsequently cancelled and rescheduled for the Wednesday evening at the last minute.
This had caused Barry to miss Frank d’Angelo’s Christmas party on the Tuesday night ( he had rsvp’d as not available due to the original meeting with the architects and then decided not to go anyway when that meeting was cancelled)
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong with this timeline!
So then according to this latest email chain, Barry and Honey would have been amenable to going to Alexandra’s house on Tuesday evening in lieu of the last minute cancelled architects meeting but Alexandra nixed that suggestion last minute?
So on the Sunday when Honey said they were free either Tuesday or Wednesday there was no architect meeting scheduled on Tuesday? And No Frank D Christmas party that had been rsvpd “no” to because of said architect meeting?

 

[ldlager]

I lent my book out to a friend so I can’t double check but I remember reading that the meeting with the architect’s at Apotex on Wednesday evening was originally scheduled for the Tuesday evening and subsequently cancelled and rescheduled for the Wednesday evening at the last minute.
This had caused Barry to miss Frank d’Angelo’s Christmas party on the Tuesday night ( he had rsvp’d as not available due to the original meeting with the architects and then decided not to go anyway when that meeting was cancelled)
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong with this timeline!
So then according to this latest email chain, Barry and Honey would have been amenable to going to Alexandra’s house on Tuesday evening in lieu of the last minute cancelled architects meeting but Alexandra nixed that suggestion last minute?
So on the Sunday when Honey said they were free either Tuesday or Wednesday there was no architect meeting scheduled on Tuesday? And No Frank D Christmas party that had been rsvpd “no” to because of said architect meeting?

Thanks for the info. I have also loaned my book out, so I can't check either.
The architect meeting was over I recall around 6 or 6.30 which I presume would have left time for them to go to the daughters house either night by 7.
Re the FD'A party, I seem to recall it was a lunch, not a dinner? But maybe I'm confused (as usual...). Also, I bet Barry never even mentioned that party to Honey.

 

[Windsorite]

Here is the timeline as you're remembering it from the book

Aside from his Apotex business on Wednesday, Sherman had the meeting with Honey and the architects from Brennan Custom Homes later in the day... The meeting with the architects for the new house had originally been scheduled for the day before, Tuesday, but had to be changed to accommodate everyone’s schedules. That had prevented Sherman’s annual attendance at Frank D’Angelo’s Christmas lunch on Tuesday. Sherman had told D’Angelo in advance that he would not make it, and when the Tuesday architects’ meeting was shifted to Wednesday, it was too late to get out to the lunch at Mamma D’s. He had apologized to D’Angelo Tuesday night by phone, saying he would be there next year for sure. D’Angelo recalls the late-night call from Barry. “He said he was sorry he couldn’t make it and I busted his balls for missing. He really liked those lunches.”

and "The meeting with the architects ended at 6:30 P.M."

 

[ldlager]

Here is the timeline as you're remembering it from the book

Aside from his Apotex business on Wednesday, Sherman had the meeting with Honey and the architects from Brennan Custom Homes later in the day... The meeting with the architects for the new house had originally been scheduled for the day before, Tuesday, but had to be changed to accommodate everyone’s schedules. That had prevented Sherman’s annual attendance at Frank D’Angelo’s Christmas lunch on Tuesday. Sherman had told D’Angelo in advance that he would not make it, and when the Tuesday architects’ meeting was shifted to Wednesday, it was too late to get out to the lunch at Mamma D’s. He had apologized to D’Angelo Tuesday night by phone, saying he would be there next year for sure. D’Angelo recalls the late-night call from Barry. “He said he was sorry he couldn’t make it and I busted his balls for missing. He really liked those lunches.”

and "The meeting with the architects ended at 6:30 P.M."

Thanks Windsorite!

 

[dotr]

AUDIO.@1:25
Kevin Donovan talks about Barry and Honey Sherman murdered - The John Oakley Show - Omny.fm
Jan 16, 2020
''Kevin Donovan, Chief Investigative Reporter, Toronto Star says Toronto police report that Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered within hours of arriving home''

 

[dotr]

If the conclusion is that the deaths occurred between the hours of 9-12pm on Wednesday, Dec. 13, 2017, is it possible a household utility of some kind, helped to narrow down the timeline ?
speculation, imo.

Smart Water Meter Data Considered Evidence In Murder Case
January 3, 2017
''Smart water meter data was used as evidence in a recent murder investigation in Arkansas, and the case has privacy advocates sounding alarm bells.

“Court documents show investigators believe James Bates cleaned up the murder scene because of the amount of water he used in a two-hour window. Police said they got that data from the smart water meter at his home, which, according to the city utilities department, takes a measurement every hour of how much water is used,” 5 News Online reported.

“With every home in Bentonville, AK, hooked up to a smart meter that measures hourly electricity and water usage, police looked at the data and noticed Bates used an ‘excessive amount of water’ during the alleged drowning,” CNET reported.''

Are smart meters real-time surveillance spies?
''Mar 1, 2011
From reading it, a person might wonder if smart meters will be real-time surveillance spies. It suggests that insurance companies might use the smart meter data to determine health care premiums, such as if there is high usage at night which would indicate sleep behavior problems. Besides looking to bust pot farmers, law enforcement might use the data as "real-time surveillance to determine if residents are present and current activities inside the home." The press might wish to see the smart meter data of celebrities. Criminals may want to see the data to determine the best time for a burglary and what high dollar appliances you might have to steal.''

 

[nuff]

Are smart meters real-time surveillance spies?
''Mar 1, 2011
From reading it, a person might wonder if smart meters will be real-time surveillance spies. It suggests that insurance companies might use the smart meter data to determine health care premiums, such as if there is high usage at night which would indicate sleep behavior problems. Besides looking to bust pot farmers, law enforcement might use the data as "real-time surveillance to determine if residents are present and current activities inside the home." The press might wish to see the smart meter data of celebrities. Criminals may want to see the data to determine the best time for a burglary and what high dollar appliances you might have to steal.''

This is brilliant, and it never occurred to me! I don't know how our local smart water meters collect and report data, but assuming it's possible to analyze hour by hour and day by day, it would be very telling (based on my own annoying experience) if no-one in a home with only two seniors used any water overnight.