D
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bbm
That I find very interesting, indeed. MOO
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #13
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That I find very interesting, indeed. MOO
D
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Apropos: Why did the investigators request medical reports of the victims right from the start? Is that usual? Or was it only done because of the theory of M/S?
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I expect toxicology would be standard for any autopsy following a violent death.
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Ok, makes sense to me, but then I ask myself, why the medical report of both victims was in the news, as an autopsy is usual and goes without saying.
casesensitive
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Medical reports would be automatically requested in a suspected suicide case. The coroner will look for any record of previous suicidal thoughts, depression and any med prescriptions for same. They also look for any history of reported domestic abuse. Table 1 in the attached link is quite interesting in the scope of information gathered to help decide accident, murder or suicide (or undetermined).
Comparative Analysis of Suicide, Accidental, and Undetermined Cause of Death Classification
Makes one wonder what it was that could've made LE think it was M/S. Unless it was all just a ruse, or unless there was a suicide note that we don't know about yet. imo.
PS, just wanted to specify that if such a suicide note were found at the scene, I don't believe for a moment that it was written by BS (unless he was somehow forced to write it, and if so, I'll bet he would've left some kind of clue(s) within it so authorities would be able to figure out it wasn't really written by him, ie spelling or grammar oddities, or unfamiliar handwriting, etc.). Such a note would sure explain however, why police thought what they seemed to have thought right from the get-go.
I cant imagine it being a ruse, maybe they did make Barry write a suicide note, there must have been something we dont know about, that made them think m/s whereas to us it screams murder.
Historically finding two elderly people dead together, with no obvious signs of forced entry, or a physical struggle or weapon induced trauma or signs of robbery, usually meant a double suicide or murder suicide had occurred.
Most investigators initially, prior to further investigation, would have likely considered M/S as a most likely scenario.
The visuals that have been described at various times seem definitely 'off' as far as M/S or S/S being the first thing to come to mind. The method also seems unlikely, considering that BS had access to a vast array of drugs. That LE never changed the public impression they'd given on that first day until 6 weeks into their investigation, when surely they would have known much sooner than that that it was likely a double homicide (evidence of wrists being bound, 'ligature strangulation' as opposed to death by hanging, positioning of bodies, etc), even though family and politicians were pressuring them to change it (or at least to clarify that they simply didn't know yet, as opposed to allowing the world to believe BS had murdered his wife).. all of this suggests to me that there had to have been something we don't yet know about as an explanation. I can't believe that TPS was really that inexperienced/incompetent/whatever, to have actually believed it was M/S or S/S given the circumstances we know about. So I'm giving them that benefit of the doubt for now. jmo.
Windsorite
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KS notes in his book
"To be fair to the Toronto force, at no time did Toronto detectives say publicly and on the record that they believed it was a murder-suicide. But privately, police sources continued to tell reporters that murder-suicide was the working theory, which inflamed the family and friends of the Shermans."
And contrary to what television would have you believe suicide notes are only present in something like 3-4% of cases.
"To be fair to the Toronto force, at no time did Toronto detectives say publicly and on the record that they believed it was a murder-suicide. But privately, police sources continued to tell reporters that murder-suicide was the working theory, which inflamed the family and friends of the Shermans."
And contrary to what television would have you believe suicide notes are only present in something like 3-4% of cases.
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bbm
Several speakers mentioned his penchant for chiding people over grammatical mistakes.
“He pretty well thought he was smarter than anyone else,” said Jack Kaye, an Apotex executive who worked alongside Sherman for decades. “And he wasn’t wrong about that.”
Canada pays tribute to billionaire couple after mysterious deaths
AND
KD's book, page 183:
One part of the children’s upbringing that Sherman did focus on was grammar and spelling, patiently but firmly correcting each error.
-.-.-.-
I think, you are right: he would have tried to leave some clues within the note. But perhaps the killer was rather smart and not a stranger and noticed these clues, forced BS in writing a next version.
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Imagine if the killer just didn't have the perfect grammar/spelling skills to even notice little errors?
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If the killer wasn't that smart and if BS left clues, then detectives didn't pay enough attention to little errors in a possible suicide note. Or THEY hadn't the skills.
MistyWaters
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Interesting the difference one word might make if “privately, police sources continued to tell reporters that murder-suicide was a working theory”. Because according to the PC Jan/18 by Det-Sgt Gomes that would be factually correct.....even if it was omitted that 2 other theories were also being investigated during those first six weeks - double suicide or double murder.
Aside from KW, I wonder who else known to the Shermans was anxious for TPS to quickly close the file. IMO it would’ve been anyone who adamantly furthered s/s or m/s who rose to the top of the prime suspect list. The killer is not going to insist a double homicide must’ve occurred contrary to m/s, in turn support an intensive homicide investigation, if police were foolish enough to fall for killer’s staging of a domestic death scene at the onset. The role of TPS is to solve crimes and what the media chooses to publish is the least of their concern.
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casesensitive
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I don't think there was a suicide note. I tend to agree with KD's explanation, after his two year investigation, for why TPS apparently deemed it M/S. Simply, there was no sign of forced entry, Honey was the only person showing injury and the majority of the experienced TPS homicide squad was focused on a serial killer (McArthur) who was arrested 34 days after the Sherman's murders.
Head of TPS Homicide Hank Insinga:
“McArthur made for some very long days,” he said. “You are working non-stop and you are getting home in the early morning hours and you are grabbing a few hours of sleep and then coming right back. So there were a lot of days like that and there were a lot of people working those days. It wasn’t just me.”
He noted although he was the major case manager, there was a “huge team of people” working on the investigation.
“While I became the face of it, it certainly wasn’t a Hank Idsinga investigation. It was a Toronto Police Service investigation and it was a team-focused investigation,” he said."
Meet the new head of the Toronto Police Service's homicide unit
Head of TPS Homicide Hank Insinga:
“McArthur made for some very long days,” he said. “You are working non-stop and you are getting home in the early morning hours and you are grabbing a few hours of sleep and then coming right back. So there were a lot of days like that and there were a lot of people working those days. It wasn’t just me.”
He noted although he was the major case manager, there was a “huge team of people” working on the investigation.
“While I became the face of it, it certainly wasn’t a Hank Idsinga investigation. It was a Toronto Police Service investigation and it was a team-focused investigation,” he said."
Meet the new head of the Toronto Police Service's homicide unit
Windsorite
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I don't think we can discount the fact that inflaming the friends and family in this manner may have been an effort on the part of the TPS to get these people to come in and speak to them and tell them all the reasons that they had it entirely wrong.
I believe the family was told by tps to not believe what the press was reporting. But the family was still upset at bs being termed a potential murderer in the press. So they hired Greenspan to fight against this publicity. I believe this created ill will between the tps and the family.
I don’t believe there was any suicide note, real or fake, as I think the existence of this would have been leaked to kd or someone else by now.
On the matter of DNA, I cannot recall if the TPS ever stated they recovered DNA at the crime scene.
Is anybody aware if the TPS was collecting DNA samples from various family members, staff and other individuals they have interviewed for exclusionary or other purposes? If the TPS has not been collecting samples, I would tend to believe they did not find any random or unknown DNA at the site.
That means either the assailants were amazingly skilfull at not leaving any DNA or contaminating the scene in such a way that no useful DNA was recoverable, or the TPS just were not able to find any.
If no unknown DNA was discovered that could cause the TPS to focus
on a smaller group of Persons of Interest.
In summary has the TPS been doing DNA sampling?
Is anybody aware if the TPS was collecting DNA samples from various family members, staff and other individuals they have interviewed for exclusionary or other purposes? If the TPS has not been collecting samples, I would tend to believe they did not find any random or unknown DNA at the site.
That means either the assailants were amazingly skilfull at not leaving any DNA or contaminating the scene in such a way that no useful DNA was recoverable, or the TPS just were not able to find any.
If no unknown DNA was discovered that could cause the TPS to focus
on a smaller group of Persons of Interest.
In summary has the TPS been doing DNA sampling?
Assuming the family and perhaps some close associates are still taking extra safety precautions.
imo, speculation.
15 times the heirs to massive fortunes disappeared under mysterious or disturbing circumstances
"Being the heir to an extraordinary fortune comes with its own set of risks.
Namely, having a familial link to an uber-wealthy person could prompt an unscrupulous person to kidnap you for ransom.
Read more: 11 times kidnappers targeted millionaires and high-profile executives around the globe
The abduction of rich and prominent heirs often generates a considerable amount of media scrutiny. In some instances, the victim is returned relatively unscathed. Other cases throughout the years have resulted in more sinister and tragic outcomes."
imo, speculation.
15 times the heirs to massive fortunes disappeared under mysterious or disturbing circumstances
"Being the heir to an extraordinary fortune comes with its own set of risks.
Namely, having a familial link to an uber-wealthy person could prompt an unscrupulous person to kidnap you for ransom.
Read more: 11 times kidnappers targeted millionaires and high-profile executives around the globe
The abduction of rich and prominent heirs often generates a considerable amount of media scrutiny. In some instances, the victim is returned relatively unscathed. Other cases throughout the years have resulted in more sinister and tragic outcomes."
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