Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15

[Satchie]

Christie Blatchford: Private investigators in Sherman case share police penchant for leaks | National Post
“But later Saturday, Greenspan spoke to the Toronto Sun about the already published stories. He said he was surprised by the reports, that he “highly” doubted the leaks had come from anyone on his team (but that if the leaks had come from someone on the team that person would be let go), and said that any “observations” made by the team “would be first shared with the Toronto police. We are not here to interfere with police but to support them.”

Pugash wouldn’t confirm or deny if the forensic pathologist hired by Greenspan to conduct a second autopsy, Dr. David Chiasson, had shared his observations with the police, or if the force felt “supported.”

Greenspan didn’t answer the same question in an email Postmedia sent him Monday — had Chiasson handed over his post-mortem report? — but said rather, “The specifics of our co-operation with the TPS, when it is made public, will be released to everyone at the same time.”..”....”

I read that article to mean Greenspan was called on the carpet by some Postmedia VIPs (publisher, CEO) for favoring The Star in releasing these exclusive details. Greenspan insists "not one of my investigators, no siree". Did he have his fingers crossed behind his back? Cause it seems like Donovan/The Star was the chosen one for sources to speak to.

Warmington, who published the murder-suicide theory, has had to rely on KW and Jack Kay. I don't think Christine Blatchford even got a crumb, but she never played nicely with others, IMO, and would likely have published her sources names.
JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Because KD has written so many stories or spoke quite often regarding this case it becomes difficult to piece everything together. But I notice when he wrote the “Shermans Were Murdered” front page story, he protects his sources by not naming them. Then over a year and a half later he claims Dr Chiasson gave him permission to identify him by name. But he didn’t name any sources at the time, isn’t that odd.

BBM
Jan 18, 2018
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim
“People providing information for this story are not identified as they were not authorized to discuss the case.....

......”Sources with intimate knowledge of the Sherman family’s investigation have used words like “professional,” “contract killing,” and “staged homicide” to describe the scene....”

Oct 30, 2019
Who killed Barry and Honey Sherman? A new book offers fascinating insights. - Macleans.ca
Q: Do you have a theory why it took police six weeks to say it was a targeted double homicide?
A: I do, and I try not to be too self-serving or too Toronto Star-serving. I was asked to investigate on Jan. 6, and I spent a few weeks trying to find out, not who killed them, but whether it was it murder-suicide or double murder. I started interviewing people, including Dr. David Chiasson, a retired deputy chief coroner who happened to be involved in the case, who gave me permission to identify him.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Regarding the mysterious 911 call that apparently came from a home near the Shermans, wondering if that phone number was spoofed? speculation.

Caller ID Spoofing
''Spoofing is when a caller deliberately falsifies the information transmitted to your caller ID display to disguise their identity. Scammers often use neighbor spoofing so it appears that an incoming call is coming from a local number, or spoof a number from a company or a government agency that you may already know and trust.''

''If you have a voice mail account with your phone service, be sure to set a password for it. Some voicemail services are preset to allow access if you call in from your own phone number. A hacker could spoof your home phone number and gain access to your voice mail if you do not set a password.''

Barry and Honey Sherman’s neighbours cite mysterious 911 call, visitor on day before billionaires found dead

Makes me wonder why spoof a 911 call on Thursday morning? Did someone want the bodies found on Thursday?

Maybe the Thursday visitor was doing a health check and police have kept this detail to themselves? If they had not heard back from Honey or Barry that morning, went to the house? The cellular data for that time on the closest tower would be so interesting to see the calls made, but most likely very hard to get a warrant for all calls on a tower.

BobbiPearl

 

[al66pine]

Take or Leave Cell Phone?

I can’t think of a reason the killer would take cellphones either as they can be tracked.?....

@MistyWaters sbm Thx for your post, but thinking more broadly about perp taking cell. Just speaking gen'ly & assuming there was killer or more than one, not addressing specific circumstances of this case.
Possible advantages of taking cell phone from crime scene?
1. If intent was to kill, and if perp's attack was interrupted/perp had to leave quickly, no time to verify death(s), taking cell delays (possibly still living) victim's call for LE/med aid.
2. Perp can create false physical/digital trail, by taking cell, putting it in a specific or random stationary place, or by putting it in a vehicle, say a random pickup truck bed, which will be driven & create false GPS trail for LE.
3. Delays LE from accessing info on cell immed'ly, tho does not actually prevent.
4. Allows perp time to destroy cell itself, maybe delete info stored only on cell.
5. Sell the cell for instant $.
6. _____?

Not saying that any of these applies here, just saying - a perp may have reasons to remove a victim's cell from crime scene. my2ct.

Possible disadvantages, if/when cell is recovered. 1. Perp inadvertently leaves fingerprints on cell. 2. Perp inadvertently leaves DNA on cell. 3. _____?

 

[ldlager]

I found this quote:



I agree with you about KD’s comment about the second autopsies: I doubt he could possibly know the final results of the first autopsies in order to compare the two, jmo.

Thanks for saving me the search Lexi

 

[ldlager]

Yeah it gets confusing. Part of the reason IMO is the way KD writes his stories, always in 1st person which makes it easy to assume he’s spoken directly to the source. But has he or is he repeating what a secondary source told him? It’s impossible to know. It just seems rather bizarre to me for a respected pathologist to reveal autopsy results to a reporter during an unsolved homicide investigation, regardless of how much the general public might be craving information.

Christie Blatchford: Private investigators in Sherman case share police penchant for leaks | National Post
“But later Saturday, Greenspan spoke to the Toronto Sun about the already published stories. He said he was surprised by the reports, that he “highly” doubted the leaks had come from anyone on his team (but that if the leaks had come from someone on the team that person would be let go), and said that any “observations” made by the team “would be first shared with the Toronto police. We are not here to interfere with police but to support them.”

Pugash wouldn’t confirm or deny if the forensic pathologist hired by Greenspan to conduct a second autopsy, Dr. David Chiasson, had shared his observations with the police, or if the force felt “supported.”

Greenspan didn’t answer the same question in an email Postmedia sent him Monday — had Chiasson handed over his post-mortem report? — but said rather, “The specifics of our co-operation with the TPS, when it is made public, will be released to everyone at the same time.”..”....”

Isn't it possible that anyone in attendance at or who was privy to the second autopsy results could have "leaked" them? In fact, I believe Greenspan could have known about and even supported the leak as a lever to force TPS' hand in announcing a M/M. JMO.

 

[ldlager]

Take or Leave Cell Phone?
@MistyWaters sbm Thx for your post, but thinking more broadly about perp taking cell. Just speaking gen'ly & assuming there was killer or more than one, not addressing specific circumstances of this case.
Possible advantages of taking cell phone from crime scene?
1. If intent was to kill, and if perp's attack was interrupted/perp had to leave quickly, no time to verify death(s), taking cell delays (possibly still living) victim's call for LE/med aid.
2. Perp can create false physical/digital trail, by taking cell, putting it in a specific or random stationary place, or by putting it in a vehicle, say a random pickup truck bed, which will be driven & create false GPS trail for LE.
3. Delays LE from accessing info on cell immed'ly, tho does not actually prevent.
4. Allows perp time to destroy cell itself, maybe delete info stored only on cell.
5. Sell the cell for instant $.
6. _____?

Not saying that any of these applies here, just saying - a perp may have reasons to remove a victim's cell from crime scene. my2ct.

Possible disadvantages, if/when cell is recovered. 1. Perp inadvertently leaves fingerprints on cell. 2. Perp inadvertently leaves DNA on cell. 3. _____?

Or #6- they were there to steal the cell phone.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I can’t think of a reason the killer would take cellphones either as they can be tracked. Nothing that’s been published indicates the Shermans nor the home was so guarded and secure that everyone required a prearranged appointment in order to gain access. Communicating with potential murder victims in advance of a visit, killer has no control over the Shermans mentioning it to others.

Whoever arrived at the Sherman home that night I think was unexpected. But the 36 hours moves their deaths closer to midnight. I think it’d be highly unusual for a contract killer to spend hours in that home.

“Police believe they had been dead for about 36 hours when their bodies were found by realtors who had listed their home for sale.”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/family-sherman-deaths-police-probe-1.5896496?cmp=rss

I was thinking more along the lines of disarming BS. They apparently bound his wrists. ETA: then they removed the bindings at some point. Why leave him with a possible lifeline close by.

2nd ETA: Maybe the killer(s) removed the bindings from the Shermans’ wrists after killing them, not knowing bruises or marks would be evident when they were found. Barry’s cellphone was left close by as part of the staging to make it appear to be a m/s. (Lightbulb went on in my head.)

 

[ldlager]

Because KD has written so many stories or spoke quite often regarding this case it becomes difficult to piece everything together. But I notice when he wrote the “Shermans Were Murdered” front page story, he protects his sources by not naming them. Then over a year and a half later he claims Dr Chiasson gave him permission to identify him by name. But he didn’t name any sources at the time, isn’t that odd.

BBM
Jan 18, 2018
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim
“People providing information for this story are not identified as they were not authorized to discuss the case.....

......”Sources with intimate knowledge of the Sherman family’s investigation have used words like “professional,” “contract killing,” and “staged homicide” to describe the scene....”

Oct 30, 2019
Who killed Barry and Honey Sherman? A new book offers fascinating insights. - Macleans.ca
Q: Do you have a theory why it took police six weeks to say it was a targeted double homicide?
A: I do, and I try not to be too self-serving or too Toronto Star-serving. I was asked to investigate on Jan. 6, and I spent a few weeks trying to find out, not who killed them, but whether it was it murder-suicide or double murder. I started interviewing people, including Dr. David Chiasson, a retired deputy chief coroner who happened to be involved in the case, who gave me permission to identify him.

Chiasson likely didn't ever give KD permission to state that Chiasson was the source of the murder info. It simply says Chiasson gave KD permission to "identify him". Identify him as what- the pathologist who did the second autopsy IMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

Chiasson likely didn't ever give KD permission to state that Chiasson was the source of the murder info. It simply says Chiasson gave KD permission to "identify him". Identify him as what- the pathologist who did the second autopsy IMO.

Yeah, who knows. It doesn’t matter if Chiasson was identified, if he wasn’t the source. If that’s what KD is referring to - as in identification by name only, who conducted the 2nd autopsy - that’s not confirmation the information was factual.

I’ve never believed this story, that the 2nd autopsy was required to sway LE’s from m/s at the 11th hour. Maybe other parts are true, maybe none if it. If it was any of the PI team speaking to KD as an unnamed source, back then they’d have a different agenda beyond satisfying the public’s curiosity.

I’ve always believed something is going on behind the scenes, perhaps even involving the cooperation of KD, and as a result nothing is as straightforward as it might appear, as gleaned from the media. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Isn't it possible that anyone in attendance at or who was privy to the second autopsy results could have "leaked" them? In fact, I believe Greenspan could have known about and even supported the leak as a lever to force TPS' hand in announcing a M/M. JMO.

Except it’s not TPS who determined how the Shermans died, that’s the role of Provincial Coroner’s Office.

Can you imagine, if there were no separation of duties - if police had the power to rule on cause/manner of deaths, plus held full investigative powers as well? We’d be worse off than 3rd worked countries.

 

[ldlager]

Except it’s not TPS who determined how the Shermans died, that’s the role of Provincial Coroner’s Office.

Can you imagine, if there were no separation of duties - if police had the power to rule on cause/manner of deaths, plus held full investigative powers as well? We’d be worse off than 3rd worked countries.

Imo the reality is that the leak, if published, would also Put pressure the coroners office to decide on or declare a m/m.
In addition, LE, by what they said and didn’t say immediately following the murders, in effect messaged to the public that they suspected it wasn’t a m/m.

 

[al66pine]

Or #6- they were there to steal the cell phone.

@ldlager Thanks for your post w yet another reason a perp would take victim's cell from crime scene. I imagine there are more reasons I've overlooked.

 

[MistyWaters]

double post

 

[MistyWaters]

Imo the reality is that the leak, if published, would also Put pressure the coroners office to decide on or declare a m/m.
In addition, LE, by what they said and didn’t say immediately following the murders, in effect messaged to the public that they suspected it wasn’t a m/m.

Yes that’s significance of an autopsy - even if we conclude what LE said immediately following the murders is proof they believed a m/s occurred, well that could be how how the crime scene visually appeared to them at the time.

But don’t we already know the crime scene was staged and the purpose of staging is to deceive investigators? And also know the homicide team took lead in the investigation almost from the onset.

KD didn’t report anything regarding the opinion of the Coroners Office and pathologists who conducted the initial autopsy other than they’d already removed the skin from the wrists. Surely this wasn’t done just on a whim? Instead he and his unnamed source make it appear as if it was totally in the hands of TPS to make a decision about the Shermans manner of death, which is extremely misleading.

 

[Satchie]

Barry’s cellphone was left close by as part of the staging to make it appear to be a m/s. (Lightbulb went on in my head.)

Very good point. No signs of break-in, nothing taken, nothing left behind: from the point of view of staging it as a murder-suicide, these would be key details.

I also agree, stager(s) thought they could just remove the restraints and no one would know Barry had been restrained. But the pathologist noticed the signs and documented them, this was the perps mistake, and would be critical evidence that BS didn't commit suicide.

 

[Satchie]

I’ve never believed this story, that the 2nd autopsy was required to sway LE’s from m/s at the 11th hour. Maybe other parts are true, maybe none if it. If it was any of the PI team speaking to KD as an unnamed source, back then they’d have a different agenda beyond satisfying the public’s curiosity.

I’ve always believed something is going on behind the scenes, perhaps even involving the cooperation of KD, and as a result nothing is as straightforward as it might appear, as gleaned from the media. JMO

Me too. The first leak, by Joe Warmington of the Sun, is so dodgy: since when has Warmington had a direct inside line to senior TPS investigations? Why hasn't he reported any inside scoops since?

As for KD, he has latched on to the narrative that, if it were not for him, the TPS would never have investigated it as a double murder.

He knows quite well TPS won't speak out to the public in an ongoing investigation. He's like one of those ambitious office colleagues who steals your work and takes credit for it, knowing you'll look bad if you speak up after he's gotten all the praise.

 

[ldlager]

Yes that’s significance of an autopsy - even if we conclude what LE said immediately following the murders is proof they believed a m/s occurred, well that could be how how the crime scene visually appeared to them at the time.

But don’t we already know the crime scene was staged and the purpose of staging is to deceive investigators? And also know the homicide team took lead in the investigation almost from the onset.

KD didn’t report anything regarding the opinion of the Coroners Office and pathologists who conducted the initial autopsy other than they’d already removed the skin from the wrists. Surely this wasn’t done just on a whim? Instead he and his unnamed source make it appear as if it was totally in the hands of TPS to make a decision about the Shermans manner of death, which is extremely misleading.

Yes it may well have appeared like a m/s to them. I agree we know the murder scene was staged, but we don’t know that it was staged to deceive investigators. Maybe it was staged to send a message to someone, and maybe the way they were staged is extremely meaningful to that someone. Just a possibility.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes it may well have appeared like a m/s to them. I agree we know the murder scene was staged, but we don’t know that it was staged to deceive investigators. Maybe it was staged to send a message to someone, and maybe the way they were staged is extremely meaningful to that someone. Just a possibility.

Yes sure, that’s a possibility too. I’d suppose though the risk in staging a murder in such a way to send a message is the receiver would recognize who sent it.

 

[ldlager]

Yes sure, that’s a possibility too. I’d suppose though the risk in staging a murder in such a way to send a message is the receiver would recognize who sent it.

Yes, I think that is exactly the point. If this happened then the murderers clearly aren’t worried about their identity being disclosed. Nor would the person who engaged the killers be seemingly worried about their identity being disclosed by the killers.
This suggests that a very close and unusually trusting relationship could very well exist between the killer and the person that orchestrated the killings........