Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15

[Bobbi Pearl]

Bobbi Pearl, great questions. I think it all boils down to one question though.

"Who benefits?"......................................... With the Shermans dead who feels better about things?
1) Business enemies of the Shermans?
2) Revenge seekers?
3) The competitors of Apotex?
4) The shareholders of Apotex
5) Those struggling to take control of the fortune from the Sherman parents?

On the surface #1 #2, and #3 have great potential. However has there been any evidence pointing in that direction?
Usually only people involved in Criminal enterprises kill their enemies or competitors, that appears to be a real stretch in the Sherman's case.
Revenge seekers still could be a viable group, especially with the 'staging' scenario in which the bodies were found. If the staging was from revenge seekers, then de-coding that aspect of the crime scene, will likely point to the POI.

Bodies dressed, sitting, wearing glasses, legs crossed.
Could the staging be showing the Shermans as aloof, uncaring and disinterested? The body language might portray that.
Any other ideas?

Thank you Windsor!

When the staging was first commented on it was mentioned they had had these pieces for years, that a friend had gifted them decades earlier, that the kids hated them and found them creepy. If a family friend bought these as a housewarming gift years before - was it because these reminded them of Barry and Honey? 2 "survivor's" who overcame so much "trash" in their life and are still down-to-earth thrifty spending billionaires?

Would positioning them similar be an inside joke to the family or the person that gifted them? The statues were kept in the basement, a room many keep stating was rarely ever used.

Again my apologies I only seem to have questions and no answers.

BobbiPearl

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Thanks. re Sherfam, it was JS that had the vast majority of funds advanced to him- the sisters together has materially less $ loans IIRC. IMO and based on what we know BS didn't need JS to repay his loans to fund his new house- frankly, $30 million would have been rounding to Barry given his non Apotex personal wealth. IMO Barry was sending a message to JS with his repayment request.

Me too. I think he was trying to teach him and Honey was adamant he not give in this time.

BobbiPearl

 

[deugirtni]

They may have texted or emailed, but I assume police would not have the ability to obtain a transcript of a conversation that took place between 2 individuals talking on a phone?

Yes for sure, but would still be interesting to me.

 

[Satchie]

Someone also mentioned autopsies, this is something that struck me oddly in the beginning as well, I have read that many Jewish do not agree with autopsies but this family pushed and asked for a second one. Why would any family member if involved (as some think this is a family member) go against beliefs and ask for a 2nd if they had something to hide.
BobbiPearl

RSBM

Tabloid headlines were screaming that Toronto police were convinced Barry had murdered Honey and then killed himself. TPS were not confirming or denying. The family hired their own team to run an independent investigation, (presumably to challenge a TPS finding of murder-suicide).

ETA: unlike TPS, the family's own investigation petered out and gave up.

 

[dotr]

Regarding the mysterious 911 call that apparently came from a home near the Shermans, wondering if that phone number was spoofed? speculation.

Caller ID Spoofing
''Spoofing is when a caller deliberately falsifies the information transmitted to your caller ID display to disguise their identity. Scammers often use neighbor spoofing so it appears that an incoming call is coming from a local number, or spoof a number from a company or a government agency that you may already know and trust.''

''If you have a voice mail account with your phone service, be sure to set a password for it. Some voicemail services are preset to allow access if you call in from your own phone number. A hacker could spoof your home phone number and gain access to your voice mail if you do not set a password.''

Barry and Honey Sherman’s neighbours cite mysterious 911 call, visitor on day before billionaires found dead

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Wow, great answers and details Lexiintoronto!

Thank you everyone for the feedback. I am starting to get confused as to whom shared what details my apologies not naming all of you and thank you to all:

Checking road sewers? I hope our bathroom waste does not go out of our houses and to these sewers (the stench would be brutal would it not?), if they flushed something would you need to snake it and check inside pipes?

Why would you take the ties with you and then throw them close to the home?

By '911 call', I assume you are talking about the 911 call which was received (reportedly) from a home down the street from the Shermans. It wasn't ever said what type of emergency, and yes, it was police who responded and not other services. It makes me wonder if it was a call that was simply called in, but nothing heard (a hangup?), and possibly police therefore just showed up to make sure everything was okay, as I know they will do in such situations? That is just my own opinion. It was never said whether the call was landline or cellphone, nor what time it came in, but only what time police responded, which was approximately 9:45am on the Thursday. It would be interesting to know if Honey (or Barry's) phone showed an outgoing call to 911, but something we won't know, but hopefully TPS know. (Could it have possibly been the man parked out front, waiting at the door who made the call? Police say they know who it was and why he was there, but hopefully they also checked HIS phone?)

I agree here, it makes sense if this was the same timing as the neighbor police 911 call follow up, this could have been the police officer going to the door and knocking.

after reading many of the replies more thoughts:

I would expect the neighbor's camera that catches at minimum the street in front of the Shermans home, they would see who drove in and out of the home every day. I expect the camera does not catch the full driveway or doorway of the Sherman home. (they checked road side sewer/gutters before they saw this video I would assume as well).

If the perp(s) were on foot and did not park close to the home (video view) what foot prints were found on the grounds? That week had 2 or more snow falls and it was very cold out so it would not melt quickly (unlike a heated driveway which they assumably may have had on the ramp to the garage.)



Someone also mentioned autopsies, this is something that struck me oddly in the beginning as well, I have read that many Jewish do not agree with autopsies but this family pushed and asked for a second one. Why would any family member if involved (as some think this is a family member) go against beliefs and ask for a 2nd if they had something to hide.


BobbiPearl

YW

In my opinion, the police were searching for something specific in mind, something missing from the scene that should have been there. Maybe they were initially trying to rule out that Barry removed the item and disposed of it close to home.

*If* a family member is involved I doubt they’d have little choice but to go along with with the recommendation of second, private autopsies, in my opinion. And it may have worked to their favour: the provincial pathologist was present at the private autopsies and shared crime scene photos and details from the provincial autopsies (according to Donovan).

The family member would then know where they may have erred with their staging, and can create a new narrative around the evidence if they are ever caught.

We know Barry was very outspoken about not being religious, but Honey apparently was. I don’t know how observant of the Jewish faith or the beliefs of anyone else in the family.

 

[MistyWaters]

YW

In my opinion, the police were searching for something specific in mind, something missing from the scene that should have been there. Maybe they were initially trying to rule out that Barry removed the item and disposed of it close to home.

*If* a family member is involved I doubt they’d have little choice but to go along with with the recommendation of second, private autopsies, in my opinion. And it may have worked to their favour: the provincial pathologist was present at the private autopsies and shared crime scene photos and details from the provincial autopsies (according to Donovan).

The family member would then know where they may have erred with their staging, and can create a new narrative around the evidence if they are ever caught.

We know Barry was very outspoken about not being religious, but Honey apparently was. I don’t know how observant of the Jewish faith or the beliefs of anyone else in the family.

The 2nd autopsy was conducted shortly after the media was abuzz with reports LE believed a m/s took place. Wouldn’t that be risky, if a family member was the killer, to request a 2nd autopsy which might instead determine a homicide occurred, leading to a homicide investigation to identify person/s responsible?

By this timeline, I notice the 2nd autopsy was conducted prior to hiring the PI team.

A timeline of key events in the murders of Barry and Honey Sherman

Dec. 17, 2017: Police determine that the couple died from “ligature neck compression.” Homicide detectives take over the investigation. Media reports quote police sources saying the prevalent theory in the case was that it was a murder-suicide.

Dec. 21, 2017: A memorial is held for the Shermans in Mississauga, Ont.

Dec. 23, 2017: The Sherman family hires a pathologist to conduct a second autopsy.

Dec. 28, 2017: The Sherman’s family lawyer hires a private investigator to look into the deaths.

Jan. 26, 2018: Toronto police say the Sherman’s were killed in a double-homicide and say the attack was targeted.

***

Adding - the family statement disputing media rumours of m/s had already been released Saturday Dec 16th, the day following the discovery of the bodies. Wouldn’t it seem logical plans for a 2nd autopsy were underway based on the media reporting?
Family of Barry and Honey Sherman release a statement

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Donovan said Barry’s BlackBerry was found ‘near by’:

“You are a homicide detective working one of the most sensational cases in recent history. Billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman, found dead in their basement swimming pool room, staged in a macabre pose. Barry’s BlackBerry is discovered nearby, and his office computer and cluttered desk are surely awash with clues.”
Lawyers for Ontario, Apotex struck deal on what detectives could access in Sherman murder investigation. It took one month

Barry’s gloves and the home inspection report were found close to the door of the underground garage. Donovan makes it sound as if his phone was found in the pool area (?). Why wouldn’t the killer(s) take it from him?

We read some of the statements from the gardener, realtor etc. who were at the scene. No one mentions his phone making a sound, fwiw.

That entire statement feels like it has 3 different locations. He begins the sentence with it found nearby, the previous sentence concluded in the pool room then a coma and his office and desk are mentioned, I have not read anywhere that Barry had an office in the basement, did he? then it is referring to Apotex office?

BobbiPearl

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

YW

In my opinion, the police were searching for something specific in mind, something missing from the scene that should have been there. Maybe they were initially trying to rule out that Barry removed the item and disposed of it close to home.

*If* a family member is involved I doubt they’d have little choice but to go along with with the recommendation of second, private autopsies, in my opinion. And it may have worked to their favour: the provincial pathologist was present at the private autopsies and shared crime scene photos and details from the provincial autopsies (according to Donovan).

The family member would then know where they may have erred with their staging, and can create a new narrative around the evidence if they are ever caught.

We know Barry was very outspoken about not being religious, but Honey apparently was. I don’t know how observant of the Jewish faith or the beliefs of anyone else in the family.

Again very well thought details.

Thank you
BobbiPearl

 

[dotr]

Again very well thought details.

Thank you
BobbiPearl

Welcome to Ws Bobbi Pearl, appreciative of your invigorating posts!

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Welcome to Ws Bobbi Pearl, appreciative of your invigorating posts!

thank you glad to join in and share my 2 cents.

BobbiPearl

 

[ldlager]

The 2nd autopsy was conducted shortly after the media was abuzz with reports LE believed a m/s took place. Wouldn’t that be risky, if a family member was the killer, to request a 2nd autopsy which might instead determine a homicide occurred, leading to a homicide investigation to identify person/s responsible?

By this timeline, I notice the 2nd autopsy was conducted prior to hiring the PI team.

A timeline of key events in the murders of Barry and Honey Sherman

Dec. 17, 2017: Police determine that the couple died from “ligature neck compression.” Homicide detectives take over the investigation. Media reports quote police sources saying the prevalent theory in the case was that it was a murder-suicide.

Dec. 21, 2017: A memorial is held for the Shermans in Mississauga, Ont.

Dec. 23, 2017: The Sherman family hires a pathologist to conduct a second autopsy.

Dec. 28, 2017: The Sherman’s family lawyer hires a private investigator to look into the deaths.

Jan. 26, 2018: Toronto police say the Sherman’s were killed in a double-homicide and say the attack was targeted.

***

Adding - the family statement disputing media rumours of m/s had already been released Saturday Dec 16th, the day following the discovery of the bodies. Wouldn’t it seem logical plans for a 2nd autopsy were underway based on the media reporting?
Family of Barry and Honey Sherman release a statement

I'm not sure about that timing Misty. IIRC, the PI's/ex homicide detectives (or some of them) actually attended the second autopsy. So they must have been engaged before that autopsy took place.

 

[ldlager]

That entire statement feels like it has 3 different locations. He begins the sentence with it found nearby, the previous sentence concluded in the pool room then a coma and his office and desk are mentioned, I have not read anywhere that Barry had an office in the basement, did he? then it is referring to Apotex office?

BobbiPearl

Yes, they are referring to his Apo office- the link relates to LE wanting to search his desk and ofice at Apotex

 

[Lexiintoronto]

The 2nd autopsy was conducted shortly after the media was abuzz with reports LE believed a m/s took place. Wouldn’t that be risky, if a family member was the killer, to request a 2nd autopsy which might instead determine a homicide occurred, leading to a homicide investigation to identify person/s responsible?

By this timeline, I notice the 2nd autopsy was conducted prior to hiring the PI team.

A timeline of key events in the murders of Barry and Honey Sherman

Dec. 17, 2017: Police determine that the couple died from “ligature neck compression.” Homicide detectives take over the investigation. Media reports quote police sources saying the prevalent theory in the case was that it was a murder-suicide.

Dec. 21, 2017: A memorial is held for the Shermans in Mississauga, Ont.

Dec. 23, 2017: The Sherman family hires a pathologist to conduct a second autopsy.

Dec. 28, 2017: The Sherman’s family lawyer hires a private investigator to look into the deaths.

Jan. 26, 2018: Toronto police say the Sherman’s were killed in a double-homicide and say the attack was targeted.

***

Adding - the family statement disputing media rumours of m/s had already been released Saturday Dec 16th, the day following the discovery of the bodies. Wouldn’t it seem logical plans for a 2nd autopsy were underway based on the media reporting?
Family of Barry and Honey Sherman release a statement

Unfortunately, I don’t think the timeline is accurate. Alex directly told Donovan that she hired Greenspan a day after the Shermans’ remains were found. (They were found on the 15th, he was hired on the 16th.) He assembled the investigation team.

According to Donovan, the private autopsies were held on Wednesday, December 20th, 2017, the day before the memorial and private burial. The timeline above has the autopsies being performed two days after the memorial and burial.

From KD’s book:


ETA: Just based on KD’s reporting, the skin around the Shermans’ wrists were removed and sent to the CFS to study the age and healing stages of apparent marks on their wrists. This is just one example that puts the first autopsies at an advantage. My belief is that those results are kept under seal until a possible trial.

I think the first autopsies placed the killer(s) at a disadvantage that no private autopsies could alter, jmo.

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm not sure about that timing Misty. IIRC, the PI's/ex homicide detectives (or some of them) actually attended the second autopsy. So they must have been engaged before that autopsy took place.

Do you have a link for that? I didn’t realize medical autopsies were ever open to spectators in an unofficial capacity.

Regardless my point really only was it was publicly unknown LE might’ve suspected a double homicide occurred in those early days. It was the family who was disputing the m/s theory floating in the media. For that reason if a family member was involved I’d think they’d be reluctant to undertake a second autopsy which might not support the possibility a m/s took place. I can’t think of a prior case, ever, where a guilty party encouraged a homicide investigation, especially if it appeared the death investigation was leaning toward a file closed domestic incident of m/s.

But then, if we want to believe KDs sources, it was that 2nd autopsy ordered by the family which proved to LE a homicide occurred. This is where the story has gotten a tad scrambled over time IMO.

Family of Barry and Honey Sherman release a statement
“A statement from the Sherman family, released by Apotex, Saturday afternoon said,

"Our parents shared an enthusiasm for life and commitment to their family and community totally inconsistent with the rumors regrettably circulated in the media as to the circumstances surrounding their deaths.
We are shocked and think it's irresponsible that police sources have reportedly advised the media of a theory which neither their family, their friends nor their colleagues believe to be true.
We urge the Toronto Police Service to conduct a thorough, intensive and objective criminal investigation, and urge the media to refrain from further reporting as to the cause of these tragic deaths until the investigation is completed."..”

 

[MistyWaters]

About KDs source who told him it was the 2nd autopsy which convinced LE a double homicide occurred just shortly before the Jan 26th PC — But if that wasn’t true, how do we know anything KD attributed to that same source regarding the autopsy was factual information, including the examination of wrists?

This is where we’re forced to pick and choose what to believe in order to support any one theory.

JMO

 

[Satchie]

About KDs source who told him it was the 2nd autopsy which convinced LE a double homicide occurred just shortly before the Jan 26th PC — But if that wasn’t true, how do we know anything KD attributed to that same source regarding the autopsy was factual information, including the examination of wrists?

This is where we’re forced to pick and choose what to believe in order to support any one theory.

JMO

I can't recall any other murder cases in Canada where there's all this press coverage based on alleged insiders and leaks from police. Not in the lengthy investigation against McArthur, which occurred during public outcry against TPS for failing to solve the disappearances; not during the long investigation of Dellen Millard; not before the Russell Williams trial, nothing.

IMO, the leaks to the media in this case are not because anyone has a great desire to see the crime solved, and the perperators punished. IMO there are other agendas at work.

It's certainly much easier to try to sway public opinion, via talking to the media, than it is to sway the opinion of police.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Do you have a link for that? I didn’t realize medical autopsies were ever open to spectators in an unofficial capacity.

Regardless my point really only was it was publicly unknown LE might’ve suspected a double homicide occurred in those early days. It was the family who was disputing the m/s theory floating in the media. For that reason if a family member was involved I’d think they’d be reluctant to undertake a second autopsy which might not support the possibility a m/s took place. I can’t think of a prior case, ever, where a guilty party encouraged a homicide investigation, especially if it appeared the death investigation was leaning toward a file closed domestic incident of m/s.

But then, if we want to believe KDs sources, it was that 2nd autopsy ordered by the family which proved to LE a homicide occurred. This is where the story has gotten a tad scrambled over time IMO.

Family of Barry and Honey Sherman release a statement
“A statement from the Sherman family, released by Apotex, Saturday afternoon said,

"Our parents shared an enthusiasm for life and commitment to their family and community totally inconsistent with the rumors regrettably circulated in the media as to the circumstances surrounding their deaths.
We are shocked and think it's irresponsible that police sources have reportedly advised the media of a theory which neither their family, their friends nor their colleagues believe to be true.
We urge the Toronto Police Service to conduct a thorough, intensive and objective criminal investigation, and urge the media to refrain from further reporting as to the cause of these tragic deaths until the investigation is completed."..”

I found this quote:

“The funeral for the Sherman couple was scheduled for Thursday, Dec. 21. Chiasson and others on Greenspan’s team had to move fast. They sought and received permission from the coroner’s office to conduct private autopsies before the scheduled funeral. It is unusual for a family to conduct their own autopsy, but not unprecedented.

On Wednesday, Dec. 20, Chiasson entered the pathology suite at the modern coroner’s office.

In the new, state-of-the-art autopsy suite at the Office of the Chief Coroner in north Toronto, natural light filters through frosted glass and the scene looks like a high-tech set for a modern medical drama. Chiasson, when he was Ontario’s chief forensic pathologist, performed autopsies in the cramped, old building downtown.

Chiasson noticed that all of the skin had been removed from the wrists of both Barry and Honey. Present with Chiasson were three private investigators — Tom Klatt, Ray Zarb and Mike Davis — all former members of the Toronto Police homicide squad.”
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star

I agree with you about KD’s comment about the second autopsies: I doubt he could possibly know the final results of the first autopsies in order to compare the two, jmo.

 

[MistyWaters]

I found this quote:



I agree with you about KD’s comment about the second autopsies: I doubt he could possibly know the final results of the first autopsies in order to compare the two, jmo.

Yeah it gets confusing. Part of the reason IMO is the way KD writes his stories, always in 1st person which makes it easy to assume he’s spoken directly to the source. But has he or is he repeating what a secondary source told him? It’s impossible to know. It just seems rather bizarre to me for a respected pathologist to reveal autopsy results to a reporter during an unsolved homicide investigation, regardless of how much the general public might be craving information.

Christie Blatchford: Private investigators in Sherman case share police penchant for leaks | National Post
“But later Saturday, Greenspan spoke to the Toronto Sun about the already published stories. He said he was surprised by the reports, that he “highly” doubted the leaks had come from anyone on his team (but that if the leaks had come from someone on the team that person would be let go), and said that any “observations” made by the team “would be first shared with the Toronto police. We are not here to interfere with police but to support them.”

Pugash wouldn’t confirm or deny if the forensic pathologist hired by Greenspan to conduct a second autopsy, Dr. David Chiasson, had shared his observations with the police, or if the force felt “supported.”

Greenspan didn’t answer the same question in an email Postmedia sent him Monday — had Chiasson handed over his post-mortem report? — but said rather, “The specifics of our co-operation with the TPS, when it is made public, will be released to everyone at the same time.”..”....”

 

[Satchie]

According to Donovan, the private autopsies were held on Wednesday, December 20th, 2017, the day before the memorial and private burial.

RSBM

On January 19, the Star published Donovan's scoop revealing the private teams theory, and the results of the 2nd autopsy,
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim
It was reported on here on the 19th as well.
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #4

Why did he get the timeline wrong? Or was the conclusion of double murder leaked by one of the private investigators prior to the actual second autopsy?