Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15

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As for KD, he has latched on to the narrative that, if it were not for him, the TPS would never have investigated it as a double murder.

He knows quite well TPS won't speak out to the public in an ongoing investigation. He's like one of those ambitious office colleagues who steals your work and takes credit for it, knowing you'll look bad if you speak up after he's gotten all the praise.

rsbm

In fairness to KD, it was Greenspan's team who takes credit for the double murder finding. The leaked second autopsy results and reports of the inept crime scene investigation by TPS came from Greenspan, and was reported by KD.

The adage "don't shoot the messenger" comes to mind.
 
As for KD, he has latched on to the narrative that, if it were not for him, the TPS would never have investigated it as a double murder.

He knows quite well TPS won't speak out to the public in an ongoing investigation. He's like one of those ambitious office colleagues who steals your work and takes credit for it, knowing you'll look bad if you speak up after he's gotten all the praise.

rsbm

In fairness to KD, it was Greenspan's team who takes credit for the double murder finding. The leaked second autopsy results and reports of the inept crime scene investigation by TPS came from Greenspan, and was reported by KD.

The adage "don't shoot the messenger" seems appropriate based on your comments.
 
Yes, I think that is exactly the point. If this happened then the murderers clearly aren’t worried about their identity being disclosed. Nor would the person who engaged the killers be seemingly worried about their identity being disclosed by the killers.
This suggests that a very close and unusually trusting relationship could very well exist between the killer and the person that orchestrated the killings........

That’s if one believes the killings were orchestrated. As the cause of death was strangulation I’m not quite ready to jump on that bandwagon. It seems to me strangulation indicates an up-close and personal murder involving revenge and hatred, tightening, holding.....much different than one click, shooting a bullet from gun. . It’s also difficult to imagine hired killers or any secondary party in the home prior to Barry’s arrival and the homicides not occurring until possibly as late as midnight. We really know very little at this point in time.
 
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rsbm

In fairness to KD, it was Greenspan's team who takes credit for the double murder finding. The leaked second autopsy results and reports of the inept crime scene investigation by TPS came from Greenspan, and was reported by KD.

The adage "don't shoot the messenger" comes to mind.

Greenspan never acknowledged the leak came from his team. My take on it, yes I agree the story disparaged TPS eluding to how easily they could be swayed from one direction or another. But at other times Greenspan claimed he and his team were working with TPS so who’s to know what or has been going on behind the scenes.
 
" Do you have a theory why it took police six weeks to say it was a targeted double homicide?

KD: I do, and I try not to be too self-serving or too Toronto Star-serving. I was asked to investigate on Jan. 6...As fantastical as it seems, the Toronto police... chose not to go or to see the second autopsy report—until it was on the front page of the
Toronto Star."

Yes, Mr. Modesty himself.

Who killed Barry and Honey Sherman? A new book offers fascinating insights. - Macleans.ca

The police were doing nothing, nothing at all, except going over the crime scene for weeks, interviewing witnesses, collecting masses of video footage and phone data, and waiting for toxicology reports.
 
I wonder how the plant waterer person morphed into a trainer......iirc KW told us the trainer is the wife or gf of his brother’s best friend.

KD -
“Friday morning, at 8:30 a.m., the housekeeper and a person who waters the Shermans’ plants once a week arrived at Old Colony Rd. for regularly scheduled Friday-morning visits. Both housekeeper and plant waterer busied themselves on the main and second floor for the next two hours.......”
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide

CBC -
“The ITOs indicate the Shermans' housekeeper, their personal trainer and a furnace technician had also (aside from realtors/clients) entered the house that morning......The housekeeper and trainer were first to arrive, around 8:25 a.m.......”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-honey-sherman-murder-2021-1.5860527
 
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We have existence of street video for the day after the deaths ocurred, yet no disclosure of the existence for the day of the deaths. To me it is obvious the videos exists, the TPS has them and they are extremely relevant. The TPS is avoiding disclosing this information publicly, as part of their investigative process.

I believe the videos show people arriving and leaving the Sherman home, and one or more of those people would be known to the Shermans. I also am of the opinion the TPS has identified some of these people.

Secondly the staging of the bodies and the manner of their deaths, does point to some sort of personal relationship. The staging may also be a sign/warning to 'others' who may know the perpetrator, the 'others' should stay silent, lest they suffer the same fate.
 
We have existence of street video for the day after the deaths ocurred, yet no disclosure of the existence for the day of the deaths. To me it is obvious the videos exists, the TPS has them and they are extremely relevant. The TPS is avoiding disclosing this information publicly, as part of their investigative process.

I believe the videos show people arriving and leaving the Sherman home, and one or more of those people would be known to the Shermans. I also am of the opinion the TPS has identified some of these people.

Secondly the staging of the bodies and the manner of their deaths, does point to some sort of personal relationship. The staging may also be a sign/warning to 'others' who may know the perpetrator, the 'others' should stay silent, lest they suffer the same fate.

Yes had the crime scene been staged as a home invasion, the victims appearing as if they’d tried to prevent it, or at first glance, posed in their beds as if they’d died in their sleep from an accidental cause such as carbon monoxide or overdose, the crime scene might not have appeared quite so blatantly shocking.

But for the couple to be staged in an self-admitted execution style manner at death, I’m not so sure it’s a warning by the perpetrator for others to stay silent as much as it was to inflict horror, humiliation and shame upon the victims and the Sherman family, with the intention the death would never be recognized as anything beyond m/s. I wouldn’t doubt if the scene was staged also by other means to support that conclusion. Why else would’ve the m/s rumour began in the first place?
 
I wonder how the plant waterer person morphed into a trainer......iirc KW told us the trainer is the wife or gf of his brother’s best friend.

KD -
“Friday morning, at 8:30 a.m., the housekeeper and a person who waters the Shermans’ plants once a week arrived at Old Colony Rd. for regularly scheduled Friday-morning visits. Both housekeeper and plant waterer busied themselves on the main and second floor for the next two hours.......”
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide

CBC -
“The ITOs indicate the Shermans' housekeeper, their personal trainer and a furnace technician had also (aside from realtors/clients) entered the house that morning......The housekeeper and trainer were first to arrive, around 8:25 a.m.......”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-honey-sherman-murder-2021-1.5860527
As more information became available, it turned out that all 3 women (cleaning lady, 'gardener', and personal trainer), and more (furnace guy, realtors, clients) were all at the house on the Friday morning the bodies were discovered.

From Lexi's timeline from the media thread:

-December 15, 2017, Honey and Barry Sherman are found deceased in their home.
The timeline information below is based on redacted court files, except where noted. Sources: ‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after , https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5860527?client=safari , and Court documents reveal more details about 2017 homicides of Barry and Honey Sherman

  • 8:25 am, the housekeeper and a personal trainer arrive at the home ....
  • The housekeeper goes upstairs to try to locate Honey, but does not find her. The bed is made, but is slightly messy. Normally she would expect to find the bed unmade, and clothes for washing, but there are none. Honey normally would use a sink in the morning, but the sink is dry.
  • The personal trainer leaves.
  • 10:45 am (time approximate) Sherman real estate agent Elise Stern arrives to find two prospective buyers and their agents waiting to tour the home. They start upstairs and make their way to the basement where there is an indoor pool.
  • ...
  • Stern enters the pool area and glancing in, sees what appears to be the the Shermans, motionless, in semi-seated position with belts attached to their necks, tied to a pool railing, and facing a wall.
  • Stern quickly ushers the group upstairs. Stern is unsure about what she saw.
  • (Time unspecified) As Stern and the group walk upstairs, a gardener arrives who routinely waters the Shermans’ indoor plants.
  • (Time unspecified) The prospective buyers and their agents left before first responders arrived. ...
  • Stern tells the housekeeper about finding the Shermans, and asks her to check the pool, but she is too afraid to do so.
  • The gardener says she is not afraid, and goes down to check, and finds the Shermans obviously deceased.
Canada - Barry & Honey Sherman, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 MEDIA, MAPS & TIMELINE *NO DISCUSSION*
 
I wonder how the plant waterer person morphed into a trainer......iirc KW told us the trainer is the wife or gf of his brother’s best friend.

KD -
“Friday morning, at 8:30 a.m., the housekeeper and a person who waters the Shermans’ plants once a week arrived at Old Colony Rd. for regularly scheduled Friday-morning visits. Both housekeeper and plant waterer busied themselves on the main and second floor for the next two hours.......”
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide

CBC -
“The ITOs indicate the Shermans' housekeeper, their personal trainer and a furnace technician had also (aside from realtors/clients) entered the house that morning......The housekeeper and trainer were first to arrive, around 8:25 a.m.......”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-honey-sherman-murder-2021-1.5860527

In addition, it was widely reported that a personal trainer arrived in the early afternoon on the Friday and asked police if he could enter the house for his appointment, presumably with HS.
 
We have existence of street video for the day after the deaths ocurred, yet no disclosure of the existence for the day of the deaths. To me it is obvious the videos exists, the TPS has them and they are extremely relevant. The TPS is avoiding disclosing this information publicly, as part of their investigative process.

I believe the videos show people arriving and leaving the Sherman home, and one or more of those people would be known to the Shermans. I also am of the opinion the TPS has identified some of these people.

Secondly the staging of the bodies and the manner of their deaths, does point to some sort of personal relationship. The staging may also be a sign/warning to 'others' who may know the perpetrator, the 'others' should stay silent, lest they suffer the same fate.

Windsor, as you may recall there were some delays in TPS actually picking up the neighbours videos, despite several requests from the neighbours for them to do so. IIRC, the neighbour indicated that those tapes were erased every 7 days. So do we actually know that TPS has those tapes from that neighbour for the day of the murder, and they were not erased before TPS showed up to collect them?
 
As more information became available, it turned out that all 3 women (cleaning lady, 'gardener', and personal trainer), and more (furnace guy, realtors, clients) were all at the house on the Friday morning the bodies were discovered.

From Lexi's timeline from the media thread:

-December 15, 2017, Honey and Barry Sherman are found deceased in their home.
The timeline information below is based on redacted court files, except where noted. Sources: ‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after , https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5860527?client=safari , and Court documents reveal more details about 2017 homicides of Barry and Honey Sherman

  • 8:25 am, the housekeeper and a personal trainer arrive at the home ....
  • The housekeeper goes upstairs to try to locate Honey, but does not find her. The bed is made, but is slightly messy. Normally she would expect to find the bed unmade, and clothes for washing, but there are none. Honey normally would use a sink in the morning, but the sink is dry.
  • The personal trainer leaves.
  • 10:45 am (time approximate) Sherman real estate agent Elise Stern arrives to find two prospective buyers and their agents waiting to tour the home. They start upstairs and make their way to the basement where there is an indoor pool.
  • ...
  • Stern enters the pool area and glancing in, sees what appears to be the the Shermans, motionless, in semi-seated position with belts attached to their necks, tied to a pool railing, and facing a wall.
  • Stern quickly ushers the group upstairs. Stern is unsure about what she saw.
  • (Time unspecified) As Stern and the group walk upstairs, a gardener arrives who routinely waters the Shermans’ indoor plants.
  • (Time unspecified) The prospective buyers and their agents left before first responders arrived. ...
  • Stern tells the housekeeper about finding the Shermans, and asks her to check the pool, but she is too afraid to do so.
  • The gardener says she is not afraid, and goes down to check, and finds the Shermans obviously deceased.
Canada - Barry & Honey Sherman, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 MEDIA, MAPS & TIMELINE *NO DISCUSSION*

Okay thanks for that, although it still doesn’t put the plant waterer person arriving with the housekeeper first thing in the morning. Instead it appears to have been the trainer.

“Time unspecified) As Stern and the group walk upstairs, a gardener arrives who routinely waters the Shermans’ indoor plants.”
 
Windsor, as you may recall there were some delays in TPS actually picking up the neighbours videos, despite several requests from the neighbours for them to do so. IIRC, the neighbour indicated that those tapes were erased every 7 days. So do we actually know that TPS has those tapes from that neighbour for the day of the murder, and they were not erased before TPS showed up to collect them?

The likelyhood is if the TPS has Friday tapes, they would have had Thursday tapes as well. However only the neighbours and the TPS know for sure. The TPS having the tapes, fits nicely with the TPS statement, that they have a 'working theory'.

A great interview question for the TPS, 'what was the last time you were at the Old Colony house?'
 
Yes had the crime scene been staged as a home invasion, the victims appearing as if they’d tried to prevent it, or at first glance, posed in their beds as if they’d died in their sleep from an accidental cause such as carbon monoxide or overdose, the crime scene might not have appeared quite so blatantly shocking.

But for the couple to be staged in an self-admitted execution style manner at death, I’m not so sure it’s a warning by the perpetrator for others to stay silent as much as it was to inflict horror, humiliation and shame upon the victims and the Sherman family, with the intention the death would never be recognized as anything beyond m/s. I wouldn’t doubt if the scene was staged also by other means to support that conclusion. Why else would’ve the m/s rumour began in the first place?

I’m not so sure it’s a warning by the perpetrator for others to stay silent as much as it was to inflict horror, humiliation and shame upon the victims and the Sherman family,

In terms of horror, humiliation and shame, I believe the staging was extremely mild. Many examples of murders that were much more horrific. Manson, Williams, Bernardo, MacArthur, to just name a few.
 
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