CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #17

[MistyWaters]

MistyWaters:
Just curious, why would someone try to influence public opinion ? For what purpose in your opinion ?

The way I see it, the only person who would have an interest in influencing public opinion must be a strong suspect because of course juries are comprised of members of the public.

There’s other cases where LE has stood by and watched, knowing evidence was misleading. An example is the Semenilli murder case soon to go to trial. They even released a staged robbery on CCTV, all the while collecting incriminating information on the suspects who’d staged it all.

The role of LE is to solve crimes, not to ensure the media properly informs the public during the course of the investigation. The source of so much of what we think we know is either anonymous or can’t be validated as reliable.

 

[dotr]

Two inside, one spotter.

In this case it apparently took two tradesmen to kill the maid in this Mississauga mansion.. fwiw......
Robbers acted together in murder: Crown | National Post
Megan O'Toole May 11, 2010 rbbm.
''Two men accused of murdering a live-in maid at a stately Mississauga mansion three years ago blame each other for the crime, while the Crown alleges they worked as a team — “one to hold, one to find the wire” for strangling her.

Jocelyn Dulnuan, 27, was found slain on Oct. 1, 2007, her body laying face-up behind a closed bedroom door with copper wire wrapped tightly around her neck and one hand.

“Unsuccessful efforts were being made to tie her hands … when the agenda turned to murder,” Crown attorney Steve Sherriff said in his opening address.''
“[Ms. Dulnuan] turned out to be the only protection for the house…. Controlling and silencing her became a two-man job,” Crown attorney Steve Sherriff said.''

''Both Mr. Loayza-Penaloza and Mr. Figueroa were tradesmen who knew the area well, having worked on a variety of houses in the “exclusive neighbourhood,” Mr. Sherriff noted. In fact, Mr. Loayza-Penaloza had been employed as a painter in the very home the pair allegedly targeted.''

 

[MistyWaters]

A new thought - What if the perp forced Barry to strangle Honey, (knowing BS physically would have difficulty holding that pressure for the length of time to actually kill someone maybe forcing him to attach slip ties and then tighten), threatening to harm his children or grandchildren as the control to make him do so? Then the perp killed BS spending the time to make his death and only his death look like suicide?

Seems a little farfetched to me <modsnip>.

 

[MistyWaters]

It would be nice to think that TPS did know from the start that it was a double homicide, and that they were merely letting the rumours run around to their possible strategic advantage, but as time has gone on, and KD has reported on more and more court documents he's been successful in having released, it seems that TPS did in fact believe it to be M/S for the first few weeks. At least that is what I am gathering from the court docs.

Interesting, because I got the impression it was just as Gomes said, all three possibilities were investigated. That the investigation was very thorough from the onset is critical for any future conviction to occur, especially because the bodies were discovered in a double suicide pose, because it preempts a defence argument that tunnel vision occurred. I can just imagine how that’d go, call it homicide to protect the reputation of the Shermans and all.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

It would be nice to think that TPS did know from the start that it was a double homicide, and that they were merely letting the rumours run around to their possible strategic advantage, but as time has gone on, and KD has reported on more and more court documents he's been successful in having released, it seems that TPS did in fact believe it to be M/S for the first few weeks. At least that is what I am gathering from the court docs.

A new thought - What if the perp forced Barry to strangle Honey, (knowing BS physically would have difficulty holding that pressure for the length of time to actually kill someone maybe forcing him to attach slip ties and then tighten), threatening to harm his children or grandchildren as the control to make him do so? Then the perp killed BS spending the time to make his death and only his death look like suicide?

The way I see it, the only person who would have an interest in influencing public opinion must be a strong suspect because of course juries are comprised of members of the public.

I am not sure about that as the only person, influential/wealthy people know other influential/wealthy people, there are many reasons at many levels that backend politics could have influenced what is shared with the public, etc., and not for reasons that will hinder the investigations but to protect those who had close dealings with them.

If LE were to share any of the details we beg to know I bet that the public would have an issue that they are loose-lipped and are sharing theories that do not fit our narrative. In Canada LE arrests people for breaking the law, they must get permission to arrest someone for murder from a judge, they must prove to a judge they are breaking a law and evidence to back it up. It is the court systems to use that evidence and more that they can find to convince the justice system of the guilt.

 

[MistyWaters]

So what is the rationale for the TPS to attend the first autopsy if they (LE) do not determine Cause of Death? And if attending the first autopsy was justifiable and supposedly of some value, why didn't they attend the second one?

Attending doesn’t include participation. But the autopsy results might yield clues of what might’ve been involved in the murders so their investigation should search for specific items in the home right away….ie zip ties.

If the first one provided conclusive answers, what would be the point of TPS attending the second one? The 2nd couldn’t possibly been as complete as the first if certain areas of skin had already been removed, who knows what else, possibly other evidence such as small broken bones had already been identified.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Has there ever been a case where someone forced another to kill, outside of maybe gang warfare? I think anyone would be smart enough to see through that threat because if they didn’t murder their partner, she’d go to police. But someone involved in attempted murder certainly isn’t going to allow that to happen. JMO

 

[Sphinx]

There must've been something extremely compelling to have police believing this was a murder suicide at the beginning. Surely it must be much more than 'no sign of forced entry', H having a scratch/mark on her face, etc. Dying to know what it was that led that initial theory seemingly to the exclusion of double-homicide, which from what we have heard from the crimescene, seemed rather obvious. Although LE has never stated publicly that they DID believe it was M/S in the beginning, it seems more and more obvious as time goes on and more information is released, that that is exactly what they thought, ie videos written-over by the time they asked for them, etc. imo.

One small thing that just occurred to me is that the real estate agent, when showing the house on the day the bodies were discovered, did not know at first about the crime, so she picked up the papers and gloves that Barry dropped by the door coming into the house by the garage, and she placed them on a small ledge in the hallway. So to the police first on the scene, it may have looked obvious that Honey was attacked near the upstairs powder room , where her phone was found by the housekeeper who admitted she found it on the floor, and put it on the powder room counter top. There were obvious drag marks in the carpet leading from the powder room area to the pool room, and some blood on the carpet. Honey was the only one who looked like she had put up a fight, and had an injury on her face. Whereas Barry looked uninjured, other than the neck compression that could have been self inflicted, and even had his glasses on, and his legs crossed. They might have assumed that Barry pulled their coats down before putting their necks in the belts to prevent them from stopping the strangulation once in the sitting position. It would not have been obvious at all that Barry was also attacked when he came in the door, because his gloves and papers were not on the floor, but left neatly on a ledge. This combined with no signs of forced entry, might have made the police think during their initial view of the crime scene that it was a murder, suicide. IMO

 

[Lexiintoronto]

One small thing that just occurred to me is that the real estate agent, when showing the house on the day the bodies were discovered, did not know at first about the crime, so she picked up the papers and gloves that Barry dropped by the door coming into the house by the garage, and she placed them on a small ledge in the hallway. So to the police first on the scene, it may have looked obvious that Honey was attacked near the upstairs powder room , where her phone was found by the housekeeper who admitted she found it on the floor, and put it on the powder room counter top. There were obvious drag marks in the carpet leading from the powder room area to the pool room, and some blood on the carpet. Honey was the only one who looked like she had put up a fight, and had an injury on her face. Whereas Barry looked uninjured, other than the neck compression that could have been self inflicted, and even had his glasses on, and his legs crossed. They might have assumed that Barry pulled their coats down before putting their necks in the belts to prevent them from stopping the strangulation once in the sitting position. It would not have been obvious at all that Barry was also attacked when he came in the door, because his gloves and papers were not on the floor, but left neatly on a ledge. This combined with no signs of forced entry, might have made the police think during their initial view of the crime scene that it was a murder, suicide. IMO

I agree with most of what you’ve suggested, but I haven’t heard of blood or drag marks being found upstairs. (I think early on Warmington suggested a second crime scene upstairs, but I think it was from a source, and his sources were problematic in this case.) Do you have a MSM link?

 

[JDG]

Sphinx, IIRC from the house photos, most of the upstairs floors were marble, not carpeted.

Barrys coat was also pulled down, how did he manage to strangle himself with his arms restrained?

As for the glasses and crossed legs, that has to be post morgen placement as a person would not remain still while strangling.
Spasms etc would occur.

***I think there is a huge difference between *what we know* ie Honey had an injury and *what we think we know* ie that Barry did not have an injury.

We only know what has been released and that is really very little.

 

[Sphinx]

I agree with most of what you’ve suggested, but I haven’t heard of blood or drag marks being found upstairs. (I think early on Warmington suggested a second crime scene upstairs, but I think it was from a source, and his sources were problematic in this case.) Do you have a MSM link?

I will do some more research, and try to back this up with more than my memory. Again, from memory, I think that it was mentioned that the foyer had a marble floor, but the rest of the upstairs was carpeted. Does anyone still have the photos taken by the real estate agency of the interior of the house that were posted online ? That might help. IMO

 

[dotr]

Video released of suspect with distinctive gait in Barry and Honey Sherman murders | National Post

The video shows the individual walking with an unusual gait in his right leg Photo by Toronto Police Service

2017 rbbm.
How Barry Sherman built his multibillion-dollar fortune
''This article was first published in the July 2008 issue of Toronto Life''
''She led me down a hall beside a glassed-in swimming pool. The house had an overstuffed 1980s look, with lots of leather, glossy stone floors and a spiral staircase. We sat across from each other in the den, close to her workstation piled high with papers.''

''At 66, Barry Sherman likes to boast that he’ll work another 40 years. But if he died suddenly—and there is a history of unexpected death in his family—he’d leave behind a huge fortune, as well as vast problems.''

Toronto Sun

Murder-suicide suspected in deaths of Toronto billionaire and wife | Toronto Sun
Barry Sherman and his wife Honey were selling their home on Old Colony rd. for $6.9 million. Photo by Forest Hill Real Estate Inc.

 

[ldlager]

Attending doesn’t include participation. But the autopsy results might yield clues of what might’ve been involved in the murders so their investigation should search for specific items in the home right away….ie zip ties.

If the first one provided conclusive answers, what would be the point of TPS attending the second one? The 2nd couldn’t possibly been as complete as the first if certain areas of skin had already been removed, who knows what else, possibly other evidence such as small broken bones had already been identified.

JMO

One would have hoped that LE would have welcomed any chance to learn new or additional information by attending a second autopsy.
TPS must be clairvoyant to know ahead of time what the second autopsy would and would not reveal.

 

[Sphinx]

Video released of suspect with distinctive gait in Barry and Honey Sherman murders | National Post

The video shows the individual walking with an unusual gait in his right leg Photo by Toronto Police Service

2017 rbbm.
How Barry Sherman built his multibillion-dollar fortune
''This article was first published in the July 2008 issue of Toronto Life''
''She led me down a hall beside a glassed-in swimming pool. The house had an overstuffed 1980s look, with lots of leather, glossy stone floors and a spiral staircase. We sat across from each other in the den, close to her workstation piled high with papers.''

''At 66, Barry Sherman likes to boast that he’ll work another 40 years. But if he died suddenly—and there is a history of unexpected death in his family—he’d leave behind a huge fortune, as well as vast problems.''

Toronto Sun

Murder-suicide suspected in deaths of Toronto billionaire and wife | Toronto Sun
Barry Sherman and his wife Honey were selling their home on Old Colony rd. for $6.9 million. Photo by Forest Hill Real Estate Inc.

Thank you very much for posting the pictures. Happy New Year to all members !

 

[MistyWaters]

One would have hoped that LE would have welcomed any chance to learn new or additional information by attending a second autopsy.
TPS must be clairvoyant to know ahead of time what the second autopsy would and would not reveal.

I suppose it depends if you believe this to be true -
“It was only after a second autopsy ordered by the Sherman family concluded the deaths were homicide that Toronto police began to pursue the case as “targeted” killings.”
Is this the murderer of Barry and Honey Sherman or are Toronto police chasing a ghost? - NOW Magazine

 

[William_60]

Well said, Sphinx.

I admire the dedication of the folks here, and the universal respect that abounds.

Pulling up a chair here, I feel like I’m in good company.

Safe, Happy and Best 2022 wishes for all here.

 

[casesensitive]

Attending doesn’t include participation. But the autopsy results might yield clues of what might’ve been involved in the murders so their investigation should search for specific items in the home right away….ie zip ties.

If the first one provided conclusive answers, what would be the point of TPS attending the second one? The 2nd couldn’t possibly been as complete as the first if certain areas of skin had already been removed, who knows what else, possibly other evidence such as small broken bones had already been identified.

JMO

I don't think anyone thinks that LE's attendance at an autopsy denotes that they have any participation in the scientific results. We know that the police investigation is separate from the coroner's investigation.

The first autopsies did NOT provide "conclusive" answers, as you stated. Dr. Pickup was undecided as to the manner of death (although he suspected homicide) and TPS had a chance to attend the autopsies conducted by Dr. Chiasson, Dr. Pickup's teacher, a respected, experienced pathologist who is a retired Ontario Chief Pathologist. Dr. Pickup was there--there is no excuse for TPS not attending the second autopsies. I think they resented the family hiring an outside investigative team and their egos got in the way. You have to understand "rival" police mentality. I've seen it happen many times. I suspect that ego rivalry was in play, and if not, there is no other excuse that I can think of.

 

[WINDSOR]

There must've been something extremely compelling to have police believing this was a murder suicide at the beginning. Surely it must be much more than 'no sign of forced entry', H having a scratch/mark on her face, etc. Dying to know what it was that led that initial theory seemingly to the exclusion of double-homicide, which from what we have heard from the crimescene, seemed rather obvious. Although LE has never stated publicly that they DID believe it was M/S in the beginning, it seems more and more obvious as time goes on and more information is released, that that is exactly what they thought, ie videos written-over by the time they asked for them, etc. imo.

There must've been something extremely compelling to have police believing this was a murder suicide at the beginning. Some individual police officers may have believed this, based on past experience with finding two old people dead together, but the TPS never, ever officially stated this.

I think many of us are getting confused with the fact the TPS did not know what happened, and were investigating the event so as have the evidence lead them to a conclusion. Saying the TPS initially believed it was a M/S then changed their mind is in my opinion, wrong. Good police forces investigate to discover what happened, they do not assume what happened, then investigate. IMO

 

[WINDSOR]

Sorry; I got lost on TPS leaker. A cop leaked info? What info?

To a Toronto Sun reporter that the deaths of the Shermans was a M/S

 

[WINDSOR]

It would be nice to think that TPS did know from the start that it was a double homicide, and that they were merely letting the rumours run around to their possible strategic advantage, but as time has gone on, and KD has reported on more and more court documents he's been successful in having released, it seems that TPS did in fact believe it to be M/S for the first few weeks. At least that is what I am gathering from the court docs.

Yes the court documents refer to Honey being the murder victim. But the fact they were doing more investigating, alone proves the TPS really were not sure that M/S was what really occurred. What and when the TPS believed about either M/S or M/M, four years later, is really irrelevant.