Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #4

[Tighthead]

Do law enforcement have a duty to publicly report the findings of their investigation or if it is murder suicide can the make the findings a private matter?

I think they say something and you read between the lines. An example would be “we have closed our file and there will be no further comment.”

if the police do conclude murder suicide I suspect it will leak unofficially. Officers won’t appreciate being called out at the beginning, even if the leak was inappropriate.

 

[JayFriend]

Here is an article concerning a lawsuit against the Toronto police by the parents of a young man who don't believe it was suicide - they believe it was murder.

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...bungled-probe-family-alleges-in-12-5m-lawsuit

Excerpt from article :

"An Ottawa family who have been fighting for 15 years to have their son’s death investigated as a homicide have now launched a $12.5 million lawsuit against the Toronto police, alleging the force destroyed, concealed, replaced and ignored evidence from the scene of the death."

"Dr. John Connelly and his wife Gloria are also asking a judge to rule that Toronto police should have conducted a homicide investigation into their son John Connelly’s death on Dec. 9, 2001, and want the court to now order Toronto police to re-open the case as a homicide."

"According to the family, the Toronto police rushed to judgment in pronouncing their son’s death a suicide."

Sadly the police are not knights in shining armour who devote themselves to solving all our problems. Many are either bullies living out their high school persona, or civil servants collecting high salaries, waiting for lucrative retirement in early middle age. I don't blame the Sherman family for holding their feet to the fire in this investigation.

 

[zencompass]

This other piece of information from "sources" from the Toronto Sun may not be true either. We just don't know.

There may not have been a reason to move or drag her body, if this is not correct.


"Sources close to the case believe Honey may have been killed in a secondary location in the $6.9 million Old Colony Rd. house and then moved to the location where she was later found with her deceased husband."

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/much-loved-billionaire-couple-found-dead-in-north-york-mansion

 

[Grey-St]

I’m using your words. Commenced. No mention of thorough. Don’t shift the goalposts.

So your assertion is that a day after police police had secured the crime scene and been inside the premises the investigation had yet to start, and anything uttered by any police individual is wholly speculative with zero basis in fact.

Got it.

Okay, no need to be snarky , maybe I used commenced incorrectly. Surely, once a crime scene is secured, one can assume that's the commencement of an investigation. But imo, anything that is uttered on that day, or day after, is speculative. A thorough investigation has not taken place.

 

[Tighthead]

Okay, no need to be snarky , maybe I used commenced incorrectly. Surely, once a crime scene is secured, one can assume that's the commencement of an investigation. But imo, anything that is uttered on that day, or day after, is speculative. A thorough investigation has not taken place.

I’ve never denied it is speculative, but it is not wholly speculative. It is based on facts known at the time, which only police would know.

Greenspan’s drivel in Warmington’s column today came of as purely and entirely speculative. It sounded like a man trying to obfuscate. He is a smart man, speaking with a well thought out purpose. If his side had anything tangible I would think they would make it known.

 

[zencompass]

Sadly the police are not knights in shining armour who devote themselves to solving all our problems. Many are either bullies living out their high school persona, or civil servants collecting high salaries, waiting for lucrative retirement in early middle age. I don't blame the Sherman family for holding their feet to the fire in this investigation.

I posted the article about the lawsuit to say that there is silence from the T.P.S. because they do not want a lawsuit.

This is a "sensitive" investigation, in that there is so much money involved as well as politicians involved. In addition, the children of the Shermans who have lost their parents in a horrible manner and refuse to believe their father murdered their mother.

There is tremendous pressure on the police on many sides.

I have a good deal of respect for police officers as a whole. We are all aware that there are some officers who show a disservice to their profession and some who should be (and are) behind bars. In addition to that, they are human - capable of mistakes.

This is my opinion.

 

[human]

If it was murder-suicide, what does everyone think would be the reason for it?
If murder-murder, why would they both be killed and who might have done it?

What are reasons the elderly have done it besides illness

 

[Snoop Sister]

You can say what you want about that case but there is a big difference in how police will approach a case like this versus the case of a runaway prostitute that hasn't been heard from in a few days. There are literally hundreds of people that are missing right now across the city. Most, if not all, will eventually turn up. Just because someone is missing, it does not mean a crime has occurred, it usually doesn't. Police did a fantastic job of investigating that crime once they were aware that an actual crime had taken place. The Sherman family can do what they want if they don't like TPS findings, but to launch an investigation before police have even officially said one word just screams coverup IMO.

If you were referring to LB...she was not just missing for a few days And, they were given proof of the lack of familial and friend contact. TPS were even given the last known cell number she called. (Which by the way was the killer) and they still did nothing. It was not until the Bosma murder that they started liooking in to the LB’s disappearance. Read the case on WS. Further more, look at the Wayne Millard case...it was deemed a suicide by TPS. Again, much later after the Bosma case, his death has been classified as a homicide and the same killer has been charged with this murder.

If MSM were reporting my parents committed suicide or murder-suicide, without a thorough investigation by TPS, you can be d*** sure, I would be doing the same thing. Although, I don’t have the funds available that the Sherman heirs do, I would certainly do everything in my power to make sure a proper investigation was completed. And I would be looking at a possible lawsuit for the publishing of ill founded info or false news by MSM.

Leave the family alone, they are going through enough as it is. Coverup up, I think not!! Murder-suicide or murder-murder, not sure anyone knows yet. Could be either. But, if it were murder-murder, I am confident it is some one known to the Shermans (immediate family excluded).

 

[ldlager]

I genuinely want to hear other views on this. Thanks in advance,

dotr and zencompass- I lean towards murder suicide, and that the murder of HS happened in a moment of rage. But I also believe that BS carefully constructed and organized the scene to make it look like a double murder. He was very intelligent and obviously methodical in his thought processes given how he made his living analyzing detailed chemical compounds and associated legal and patent filings. He knew he could take time to organize the scene, as he would have known if anyone else would be coming to the house. Maybe in his final act he was even hoping suspicion would fall on the Winter cousins, as they would be natural suspects. Three possible reasons for murder/suicide come to mind:

1) BS discovered marital infidelity of HS and reacted in a rage. Sometimes in these instances a violent reaction is not unusual, as most people know from MSM and from WS. If the personal trainer, I wonder if HS advised the household staff to take Friday off when the trainer was coming to the house- they would be able to provide TPS with this information.

2) HS wanted out of the marriage- perhaps she had had enough of living with a workaholic husband who didn't share some or even any of her interests, and she wanted to enjoy her remaining years doing what she wanted to do. BS by all accounts couldn't accept losing at anything, and he knew that a divorce would potentially result in him not being able to retain ownership of Apotex. Maybe that was enough to put him over the edge.

3) BS seemed to feel almost guilty about his wealth, and perhaps even not worthy of it- evidence his conversation with the Senator at her cottage party as recounted at the memorial service. Maybe he just reached the point where he couldn't handle these feelings anymore, and the final straw for him was triggered by HS discussing their huge multi million dollar new house with their architect on Wed night. Perhaps they argued when they got home and he reacted violently.

I discount almost completely the corporate murder for hire theory. It's hard for me to believe any senior executive of a competitor to Apotex would consider murdering a competitor. While anything is possible, it seems like an extreme scenario.

IMO a double murder seems very unlikely if a robbery was in progress- that seems way over the top, especially with the care that went into placing the bodies in a location for which there was only a single exit.

It's time to get off the fence folks. All MOO

 

[human]

The ligature seems more planned. A manual strangulation , to me, seems more rage like.

Honey has been quite ill. Seems hard to imagine that she would have the time for a lover.

They have been married so long, She is used to him . She had the money to do,whatever she wants and children, friends, and grandchildren. What would a divorce get her? She can travel where she wants. Her days are to do as she wishes.

A young lover? I guess anyone can be foolish. Look at all of those heiresses that had some kind of lover such as their horse trainer or chauffer or whatever. Someone could be a great suck up con

 

[clearskies1]

The ligature seems more planned. A manual strangulation , to me, seems more rage like.

Honey has been quite ill. Seems hard to imagine that she would have the time for a lover.

They have been married so long, She is used to him . She had the money to do,whatever she wants and children, friends, and grandchildren. What would a divorce get her? She can travel where she wants. Her days are to do as she wishes.

A young lover? I guess anyone can be foolish. Look at all of those heiresses that had some kind of lover such as their horse trainer or chauffer or whatever. Someone could be a great suck up con

bbm. Yes, there was money, but it came from his business -- from what I can tell, she did not have a career. If he was frugal and harangued her about spending too much, that would cause friction. She might think she'd be better off divorced, with a large settlement and the ability to live life the way she wanted.

 

[ldlager]

The ligature seems more planned. A manual strangulation , to me, seems more rage like.

Honey has been quite ill. Seems hard to imagine that she would have the time for a lover.

They have been married so long, She is used to him . She had the money to do,whatever she wants and children, friends, and grandchildren. What would a divorce get her? She can travel where she wants. Her days are to do as she wishes.

A young lover? I guess anyone can be foolish. Look at all of those heiresses that had some kind of lover such as their horse trainer or chauffer or whatever. Someone could be a great suck up con

human- with respect we don't know what HS's life was really like. BS could have been very controlling, and maybe she outwardly acted like everything was ok in her marriage. She was used to him, but that doesn't mean she wanted to live with him anymore. The 2 people who really know are both unfortunately deceased. Just my opinion, of course (I can speculate as effectively as TPS, lol).

 

[Ritika]

Andreww, the police obligation is to find out as much evidence as possible and try to prosecute any crime that has happened. In All Cases.

The only people they will speak with is the family. It is up to the family what they wish to have disclosed to the media/public. There are privacy issues with all cases, that must be respected.

The police do not owe the public any answers unless there is a risk to the public. In the opinion of TPS, there never was a risk to the public.

It isn't a cover up. I bet they don't even have all of the forensics back yet. As for the family hiring a lawyer and ordering second autopsies, that is their prerogative. As for John Tory stepping in, he should not have IMO but he was a friend of the Shermans and runs in their circles. He cannot order the TPS to cover something up.

Hear hear !

 

[Twinkle]

Has this been posted? http://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...ty-underscores-toronto-police-staffing-issues

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

 

[human]

Has this been posted? http://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...ty-underscores-toronto-police-staffing-issues

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

That is a long time if a murder suicide is apparent. It seems as though it is not apoarent

 

[Veeduck]

What doesn't make sense to me is that if this was a murder, why the murderer would possibly take a key (and I assume all keys are accounted for) and lock the door after he left? Just doesn't make sense.

IMO, he locked the door on the way out for the same reason that he left his victim's bodies in an area that staff was instructed not to enter: in order to delay discovery of the crime. The more time that elapses between death and autopsy, the less likely LE is able to recover crucial evidence.
The door would also be locked if Barry was the murderer, but it would make absolutely no sense for Barry to commit murder-suicide in the least accessible room in their house, knowing that they would eventually be discovered anyway.

 

[Veeduck]

Rbbm.
Interesting list, especially the last item.
Curious if you are thinking " angry lover " in terms of BS or HS and which gender might apply to each one ?
Unless the thinking pertains more to a former flame/ associate, of one of the Sherman offspring?
speculation, imo.


By the way, welcome to Ws Veeduck!

Thanks for the welcome, dotr!

Barry didn't like to socialize; I think it was Honey who said he'd rather go to the dentist than attend a party. Honey was known to have led an active social life, so if either of them had taken a lover, it would've been Honey. I've never considered the offspring of B&H to be involved in their deaths, tho anything is possible.

Assuming this was a double murder, the UNSUB must've nursed a grudge for years to have built up enough anger to dispatch his victims in such a personal hands-on manner.

IMO, Honey had looked forward to Barry reaching 65 so that he could retire from work and accompany her at most social functions. But when Barry only semi-retired and continued to work daily, I think thats when Honey decided to start an affair with another man. This would be when Honey was in her sixties, and her paramour might have been much younger than she was. I think the illicit affair had been going on for several years.

IMO, Honey may have led her lover to believe she would divorce Barry and marry him. Finding out that B&H were building their dream house would've told him otherwise. In that event, the posited meeting with their architect confirmed for the UNSUB that he had been lied to, and in his rage he killed both Honey & Barry. I think this case has less to do with Barry making billions from pharmaceuticals, and more to do with a common love triangle. All of this is JMO, of course.

 

[nuff]

What are reasons the elderly have done it besides illness

Speaking as one of "the elderly", may I just say we have all the same drives and motivations as younger people

 

[pamelado2]

IMO, he locked the door on the way out for the same reason that he left his victim's bodies in an area that staff was instructed not to enter: in order to delay discovery of the crime. The more time that elapses between death and autopsy, the less likely LE is able to recover crucial evidence.
The door would also be locked if Barry was the murderer, but it would make absolutely no sense for Barry to commit murder-suicide in the least accessible room in their house, knowing that they would eventually be discovered anyway.

Wouldn't it be just as easy to leave out of the garage?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[Sconnie]

I just want to thank all of you posters for keeping this conversation going. Many of the threads that have no new information tend to go in circles. While this one has at times, for the most part new and thought provoking posts seem to be the norm. It is nice to come home from work to find a few new pages of interesting conversation to catch up on.