Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #4

[Tortoise]

Yes! It's appalling that a family of their financial stature could never think that suicide could possibly NEVER happen in their family. That's how it comes across IMHO! Not necessarily because it wasn't fully investigated at first....there are various views on how this reaction can be interpreted.

Here's a question - do you think that if TPS/MSM automatically thought it was a double murder at first glance that they would have reacted the same way? It's very telling IMHO.

Why should I sugar coat someone's behaviour if I think they threw a temper tantrum because TPS/media/whoever assumed the UNTHINKABLE at first glance? Most of the time suicide *IS* unthinkable! Especially if it's unsuspecting.

I'm just being real here. I can't apologize for the way I came across because I feel strongly about how they reacted towards the possibility of it being a murder/suicide. But I can bet every last modest dollar that I make that if it was initially assumed as a double murder, you would NOT have had this kind of reaction by them.

Therein lies the stigma.

I hope LE gets to the bottom of this very soon. I sympathize with the family for LOSING their parents in whatever manner they died. But let's be real here. If it IS murder/suicide, its upsetting to those who have lost friends/family members to mental illness, to hear that the 'elite' think they are above all of that.

JMO.

How are you determining that their stigma is related to suicide and not the murder of their mother by their father?

 

[Tighthead]

Who exactly threw a temper tantrum? There's no evidence of such a thing. They made one very respectful and professional statement through a lawyer, asking for a thorough investigation before theories be concluded. I would be frustrated in their position as well. Cue my earlier posts as to why, as I don't want to rehash out of respect for other folks on this board.

It's not about stigma or the elite being above mental illness, they are a intelligent group, I'm sure they know no one is immune to mental illness. It has to do with them being blindsided, and knowing their parents, and that if this was murder-suicide, having no evidence to have seen it coming.

As much as you take offence to the stigmatization of mental illness, I take offence to the depiction you have painted of a horrifically grieving family, with a plethora of questions, who are also in a unique mental state equated to grief and trauma. I'm sure many before have reacted in a similar manner when faced with suicide, regardless of their socio-economic status.

Now that lawyer is doing interviews and throwing apparently baseless theories into the mix. I say this as respectfully as possible, but they obviously are fine with media speculation when it serves them.

 

[Inspektor Clueso]

It's not about stigma or the elite being above mental illness, they are a intelligent group, I'm sure they know no one is immune to mental illness. It has to do with them being blindsided, and knowing their parents, and that if this was murder-suicide, having no evidence to have seen it coming.
.

....and despite them being an intelligent group, I guess looking from the outside in, you don't necessarily see suicide 'coming'. It can come out of nowhere. Literally nowhere.

We can agree to disagree on various things about this. That's ok. We are all entitled to an opinion, and many on here have surmised other possibilities of how the Shermans were. I'm still going with the murder/suicide theory, and I can still feel the way I do about how the reaction came out in the media, since I was never entertained the idea of how they would have reacted if there was a different initial assumption.

 

[Grey-St]

Everyone has had excellent points. The more theories/ideas etc out there, the better for processing our opinions. I’m sure I will take the heat here for suggesting this but i need to say it....i watched a bit of funeral, and know that no two people grieve the same, but, i did find the childrens interactions odd. And correct me if Im wrong, but did the son say while addressing his parents that they had put their differences aside and vowed to contact each other every day? Or something to that effect?
No doubt they were raised in an environment of wealth, are they the product of a entitled lifestyle, or taught from the school of “hard work”. Somehow I think that would be BS parenting way, but who knows.....all speculation.
To me the children looked younger than i expected. Maybe that’s my issue? Maybe their youth, and not entitlement is why they immediately demanded a secondary investigation?

Hmm... Well for one, their flat or detached affect could be a complete trauma response. For two, Jonathan didn't state that they had "put their differences aside", only that they have rallied together and vowed to stay in daily contact, likely due to the need of support. And lastly, I don't believe they immediate demanded and secondary investigation. They made a statement asking for a thorough investigation before theories be concluded or speculated. Much later on, they pursued a private, parallel investigation.

 

[Inspektor Clueso]

How are you determining that their stigma is related to suicide and not the murder of their mother by their father?

Because I am weighing in the probability that the stigma lies in having possibly committed suicide and how that would shroud their family name in darkness, plagued with questions, and gossip. Just like it would the rest of us, but why would they want that kind of publicity, right?

Where would the 'stigma' be in the murder of their mother by their father, IF any? What stigma do you think weighs heavier?

JUST MY OPINION.

 

[Grey-St]

Now that lawyer is doing interviews and throwing apparently baseless theories into the mix. I say this as respectfully as possible, but they obviously are fine with media speculation when it serves them.

That's fair. However, I think they wouldn't have to counter speculate, if it had been handled professionally, ethically and respectfully from the beginning, re. the media, TPS, and source leaks.

 

[Tortoise]

Because I am weighing in the probability that the stigma lies in having possibly committed suicide and how that would shroud their family name in darkness, plagued with questions, and gossip. Just like it would the rest of us, but why would they want that kind of publicity, right?

Where would the 'stigma' be in the murder of their mother by their father, IF any? What stigma do you think weight heavier?

JUST MY OPINION.

That is a projection IMO.

There is stigma and shame in murder, that is why some families go into denial when their loved ones are convicted of murder.

 

[Grey-St]

....and despite them being an intelligent group, I guess looking from the outside in, you don't necessarily see suicide 'coming'. It can come out of nowhere. Literally nowhere.

We can agree to disagree on various things about this. That's ok. We are all entitled to an opinion, and many on here have surmised other possibilities of how the Shermans were. I'm still going with the murder/suicide theory, and I can still feel the way I do about how the reaction came out in the media, since I was never entertained the idea of how they would have reacted if there was a different initial assumption.

That's perfectly fine, there's never been an issue with your stance on MOD re. murder-suicide. I don't have to agree to disagree with you on that, as I'm on the fence.

 

[Inspektor Clueso]

That is a projection IMO.

There is stigma and shame in murder, that is why some families go into denial when their loved ones are convicted of murder.

yes of course there is a stigma on the other end of the spectrum - (i.e a loved one being convicted of murder) but where I was going was if this is a murder/suicide, I think the suicide would weigh heavier in my opinion, because in this scenario, the speculation that it was a murder/suicide, they are lumped together. There would be no stigma in being 'convicted' of murder because they are now both deceased, but yes, absolutely, if it was a single murder, and it was speculated that the husband or wife, did it, then I can absolutely see the stigma surrounding that.

 

[Tighthead]

That's fair. However, I think they wouldn't have to counter speculate, if it had been handled professionally, ethically and respectfully from the beginning, re. the media, TPS, and source leaks.

They don’t have to counter speculate, they have chosen to do so, almost four weeks after the murders.

We we don’t know why, but it’s not done without a purpose.

My slight hunch is that if they had more to indicate that it was a double murder they would leak that info. This comes off as an attempt to muddy the waters, suggesting the police will never be able to rule out all possibilities.

 

[Grey-St]

Because I am weighing in the probability that the stigma lies in having possibly committed suicide and how that would shroud their family name in darkness, plagued with questions, and gossip. Just like it would the rest of us, but why would they want that kind of publicity, right?

Where would the 'stigma' be in the murder of their mother by their father, IF any? What stigma do you think weighs heavier?

JUST MY OPINION.

Really? You don't see how the darkness lies within their father murdering their mother, instead of their father committing suicide?

Your stigmatization of suicide comes from somewhere else. Suicide and mental illness affects everyone from all walks of life. There is no shame or darkness there, and you can't assume that's how the family feels or that everyone else would feel that way too. You are projecting your own stigma re. suicide and mental illness. Don't make assumptions on how the rest of us view it. To me, these are illnesses that take life as any other physical illness does.

 

[zencompass]

In society stigma is attached to both murder as well as suicide.

To me, suicide deeply saddens my heart. I only see sadness when there is suicide.

 

[Lilibet]

yes of course there is a stigma on the other end of the spectrum - (i.e a loved one being convicted of murder) but where I was going was if this is a murder/suicide, I think the suicide would weigh heavier in my opinion, because in this scenario, the speculation that it was a murder/suicide, they are lumped together. There would be no stigma in being 'convicted' of murder because they are now both deceased, but yes, absolutely, if it was a single murder, and it was speculated that the husband or wife, did it, then I can absolutely see the stigma surrounding that.

JMO, IF it is a murder/suicide, I think the murder led to the suicide. So if I were one of their kids, the stigma would be that my Dad killed my Mom and then killed himself to avoid the consequences. So although I agree that suicide carries a stigma, in this particular case the stigma (shame) is more attached to the murder for me. The secondary stigma (shame) is that my Dad would take the “easy” way out with suicide...and attempt to make it look like something it wasn’t (double suicide or double murder). But his murder of my mother would weigh the heaviest for me on the stigma/shame scale, even though he could never be considered a convicted murderer. I would definitely want as full an investigation as possible in hopes of ruling out murder/suicide. I’d much rather think it was a double suicide or double murder. Again, JMO.

ETA: If BS simply had committed suicide without murdering HS, I don’t see a stigma to that if it was due to depression. It’s very sad, but no stigma. However, if he had committed suicide over legal and/or financial issues and and left HS holding the bag, I’m less sympathetic to his pain. We have grappled with that on the John Beck thread.

 

[nuff]

Has this been posted? http://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...ty-underscores-toronto-police-staffing-issues

Strikes me as just one more effort on the part of Warmington & the Sun to keep the Sherman name in front of the public. It's fascinating how much they can spin the story with no new hard information for weeks! (Kind of like us, but we're not trying to profit from it.)

 

[Tortoise]

yes of course there is a stigma on the other end of the spectrum - (i.e a loved one being convicted of murder) but where I was going was if this is a murder/suicide, I think the suicide would weigh heavier in my opinion, because in this scenario, the speculation that it was a murder/suicide, they are lumped together. There would be no stigma in being 'convicted' of murder because they are now both deceased, but yes, absolutely, if it was a single murder, and it was speculated that the husband or wife, did it, then I can absolutely see the stigma surrounding that.

It doesn't make sense for anyone to attribute these strong feelings about suicide to them, without knowing them.

 

[Ava_TO]

I think it's prudent to be careful around making assumptions about the family's reaction based on their social status. By all accounts, mansion aside, it's been said numerous times that the Shermans led humble lives. Barry drove a beat up old car, they always flew coach, etc... I think the family's reaction to the suggestion of murder/suicide is a normal one, regardless of social status. It cannot be easy to hear people discussing your loved ones' demise when you are reeling from shock. Certainly, a double-suicide for ANY family would be horrifically shocking, particularly if there were no prior signs of mental distress. I don't think people's natural human emotions change based on income.

 

[Grey-St]

Strikes me as just one more effort on the part of Warmington & the Sun to keep the Sherman name in front of the public. It's fascinating how much they can spin the story with no new hard information for weeks! (Kind of like us, but we're not trying to profit from it.)

It is fascinating, isn't it? There's many cases in Toronto right now, that are equally silent (Tess Richey?). Yet it's like every other day there's an article from Warmington re. the Sherman's. It's kind of unbecoming of the paper, imo. I understand it's a complex and interesting case, but so are all the others.

 

[ldlager]

One poster mentioned earlier that the garage may have been a secondary crime scene, therefore the bodies could not be removed from that area. Definitely a possibility.

HS's car was parked at the top of the garage ramp, and may have been blocking the ramp access. It's hard to tell from the photos. As I posted previously, I believe LE has not located the keys for HS's car, and weren't yet ready to move her car from the scene. So they had to exit the front door with the bodies. I think they are still in the neighbourhood looking for the key. IMO

 

[AddyFinch]

It is fascinating, isn't it? There's many cases in Toronto right now, that are equally silent (Tess Richey?). Yet it's like every other day there's an article from Warmington re. the Sherman's. It's kind of unbecoming of the paper, imo. I understand it's a complex and interesting case, but so are all the others.

Exactly. And why isn’t the media continueing to keep the dead and missing from the Village area on the front page? Someone I talked to replied “ cause its not sensational news unless you have a body. And once the body is cold, its old news.”
Would love to know if there were no cameras, or if cameras were turned off, and when. If cameras turned off, it might help determine premeditated vs passion/rage. I would want my cameras turned on if someone was showing strangers the house.

 

[AddyFinch]

HS's car was parked at the top of the garage ramp, and may have been blocking the ramp access. It's hard to tell from the photos. As I posted previously, I believe LE has not located the keys for HS's car, and weren't yet ready to move her car from the scene. So they had to exit the front door with the bodies. I think they are still in the neighbourhood looking for the key. IMO

Or maybe simple body mechanics...easier to carry up stairs with many hands vs pushing up hill, or the ability to get the removal car closer to exit zone, away from prying camera lens? Or garage is crime scene.
This is the part i find confusing with BS killing HS. I can't see him removing his belt in garage to choke her. Unless she was trying to get away from him in the house, and ran to garage to get to her car? Was there a camera in garage, or was it too turned off?