Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #6

[JDG]

This was discussed very early on if I remember correctly. We wondered all the same things. I do believe the maid was at the home on Friday when the agent arrived, but it was reported that staff never tended to the pool area, so they couple remained undetected. A maid may not come everyday, either, she could have only been there Friday.

Many Jewish homes are cleaned on Thursday, in preparation for their Sabbath on Friday. IMO
Wednesday would often be the staffs day off. IMO

 

[Crosby87]

How would his neighbors know what he did or didn't do after his NA meeting, if it pans out that's where he was? It's cold, folks aren't sitting out on their front porches, if they'd even be paying attention if they were.

You'd be surprised at what the neighbors know lol.
I don't know whether KW lives in a house or an apartment block but if he lives in a house, perhaps his neighbors saw the lights on in his home or heard his car when he arrived home. There must be a way he can prove he went home after the meeting.
LE spoke to Sherman's neighbors and asked for surveillance videos.
I live in an apartment block and I know when my neighbors are home because I know their daily routine and I can see their cars parked in their stall from my kitchen window.
When my neighbors aren't home it's very quiet in my apartment.
When they're home I hear them open and close the door to their suites, turn on the water to take a shower, flush the toilet, play video games that sound like a machine gun, play music, and walk across floors that squeak.
I'm very observant and alert.

 

[human]

I wonder how many staff people they had.

With Honey’s arthritis issues and social schedule and Barry’s work habits, they certainly needed a cleaner. A cook? A pool person for sure. We know she had a personal trainer. A secretary?

 

[JDG]

Hazel, thank you for once again sorting out the timeline.

I just have one comment about the timeline. Unfortunately, due to the fact that we can only copy bits, some of the more salacious comments get highlighted (maybe unfairly) and important details get omitted. IMO

For instance, 1967, Empire was losing money while under the care of RT. Did BS bring it to their attention? Yes. For the goodness of his heart? Likely not, he wanted to purchase it BUT he also pointed out, quite rightly, that it would give the Winter orphans grounds to sue if it continued to not be run properly. IMO

To me, that part is more important than saying 'he had all the angles covered', because he may have been looking out for his cousins as well as out of self interest. We just don't know. IMO

The other thing is about 'fiduciary duty'. As first cousins, there is NO fiduciary duty to ones younger cousins unless you are the executor/trustee for their deceased parents. BS was neither. IMO

When he bought Empire, those clauses were added, either by RT or BS. It doesn't matter who added them but if it were BS, he was looking out for his cousins. Once Empire was sold, the clauses were no longer available. I believe that is normal business practice. IMO

The Winter orphans were entitled to an inheritance from their parents estate, received it and 'blew through it' is how it was reported. IMO

Earlier, someone pointed out that IF BS had bought a house and done really well but the Winters had also bought a house and not done well, would there be an obligation for BS to share or help out the ones who failed to do well? No. Of course not, we would likely agree. IMO

Just trying to explain fiduciary duty in a more clear manner. It is NOT the same as a familial duty, where one feels obligated from a moral stance to lend a hand or even just a wish to help in some sense when people are in trouble. IMO

Sorry to jump on the back of your timeline but earlier there seemed to be some confusion about fiduciary duty being related to how well someone in the family had done. IMO

Now, I am not claiming sainthood for BS, as I have said before. We really do not know why he tried to help his cousins, it was not a legal requirement and I do think he was trying to help by getting them rehab, homes and starting up their businesses. If anyone had done that for me, I would have considered it helping me and would have been very grateful. IMO

As an astute business man, there is also nothing wrong with understanding and making use of any/all loopholes. People do it every day. Thats why you hire lawyers and accountants. IMO

I do hope that this terrible crime will be solved, that the family will somehow, someday be able to move on without fear and dread. I wish Mary could have her sister back and the children, their parents.

 

[JDG]

You'd be surprised at what the neighbors know lol.
I don't know whether KW lives in a house or an apartment block but if he lives in a house, perhaps his neighbors saw the lights on in his home or heard his car when he arrived home. There must be a way he can prove he went home after the meeting.
LE spoke to Sherman's neighbors and asked for surveillance videos.
I live in an apartment block and I know when my neighbors are home because I know their daily routine and I can see their cars parked in their stall from my kitchen window.
When my neighbors aren't home it's very quiet in my apartment.
When they're home I hear them open and close the door to their suites, turn on the water to take a shower, flush the toilet, play video games that sound like a machine gun, play music, and walk across floors that squeak.
I'm very observant and alert.

The joys of apartment living eh? lol

KW said he came home, watched tv while eating Doritos and fell asleep. That might not be too noisy, depending on where he lives.

I have a family member who likes to play video games half the night......arghhh!

 

[Hazel]

Pamela, you make a very good point. What if Barry really did kill Lou ? That death was the key that opened the door eventually for him to buy Empire. The boys' Mother died of leukemia, but to for Lou to die suddenly at age 41 is rather suspicious unless he had an existing heart condition, or the autopsy proved beyond a doubt that he had a heart defect, or that it was a real heart attack. What now makes me wonder is that Barry knew so much about pharamaceuticals, and experimental ones at that. Me might have even been able to make something in his lab that was untraceable, and would cause a heart attack. This sounds like something out of a murder mystery on tv, I know, but this whole case is so strange, I am just thinking it might have been possible. Maybe as crazy as it sounds, KW could really be on to something true. What a shameful family secret that would be for the Sherman family if it ever came out ! I just hope the medical authorities were really sure about Lou's cause death at the time. Even if it were true, I don't think it was the cause of his and Honey's murder, but if those who ordered the hit knew, it might have made them feel more justified. It also might explain KW's hate and rage. For him it is not all about money. IMO

Lou died from a suspected aneurysm. Sorry, I had mentioned heart attack in one post, so I might have confused things. :blushing:

BS was miles away at the time, I think in a US university.
Was LW known to take some kind of medicine or vitamins, minerals?
What can cause a sudden aneurysm in a young 40 year old man? Too much anti-blood thinners? how are those called? Coagulants?

Not long after Dana's birth Beverly was diagnosed with leukemia. The family braced themselves for her death but it was Winter who died first and suddenly, in 1965, possibly from an aneurysm.

Also found this in same article:

Before her death Sherman had discussed with his aunt what might happen to Winter's business and soon after her death he made an unsuccessful bid to purchase Empire.

He pressed on. An undated letter written from Sherman's representative to Royal Trust, executors of the Winters' estate, and quoted in documents seen by DailyMail.com states:

'We ask that the vendors take note of the fact that Dr Sherman is the nephew of the late Lou and Beverly Winter, and that Beverly Winter expressed to her lawyer, Martin O'Brien, the wish that Dr Sherman be given an opportunity to meet this highest offer.

Please also note that the agreement includes options for the children of Louis and Beverly Winter to become responsible senior employees of the business and to buy back shares in the business.'

This was particularly important as Winter 'often expressed the hope that one or more of [his children] would come into the business when they come of age', the letter said.

Attorneys for the Winter siblings tracked down O'Brien who recalled that providing for the children was 'Barry's mantra' during the negotiations that resulted in him and former his high school friend turned business partner, Joel Ulster, beating another firm to purchase Empire in 1969.

In his own sworn affidavit Kerry Winter, now 55, stated: 'Mr O'Brien said that it was because Barry was our cousin, had been very close to my father and his repeated assurances that he was going to act in our best interests, that they had a level of comfort that he would honor his promises.'

He added: 'I know that Mr O'Brien never contemplated that he would turn around five years later and sell Empire and abandon us. But that is exactly what happened.'

Meanwhile, with the orphans oblivious to any options promised on the sale of their father's company, Sherman went onto make a share deal that ceded control of the family business and activated an expiration clause on the promises he had made them.

In 1972 he sold Empire and parlayed the proceeds of that sale into his new company Apotex. Two years later he incorporated Apotex and, as far as he was concerned, completely divested himself of any notion of 'fiduciary duty' to his orphaned cousins.

 

[Crosby87]

Many Jewish homes are cleaned on Thursday, in preparation for their Sabbath on Friday. IMO
Wednesday would often be the staffs day off. IMO

So if the maid worked on Thursday, she didn't notice any red flags on Thursday and she didn't discover the bodies because they were hidden in the basement where she didn't go for whatever reason?
I'm surprised she didn't notice Barry's car.
Because Barry said he didn't believe in God, why would he celebrate and participate in Jewish practices and religious beliefs etc?
He said there is no free will yet he did what he wanted. Isn't that what free will is-you do whatever pleases you?

 

[AllyJane]

Many Jewish homes are cleaned on Thursday, in preparation for their Sabbath on Friday. IMO
Wednesday would often be the staffs day off. IMO

They weren't religious though so this would not apply. This applies to more religious people.

 

[Crosby87]

Many thousands of people in TO don't even know who their neighbours are, never mind if they are home or not.

I have a 'curtain twitcher' across the road, so she watches everyone but thats very unusual.

Most just drive into their garages, go through to the house and lock the door til its time to leave again.

If theres no garage, they exit the car and go inside. So different from years ago, you would even speak to your neighbours and watch each others kids etc.

'Curtain twitcher' - you made me laugh. I never heard that term before but that's what I am lol!

 

[JDG]

They weren't religious though so this would not apply. This applies to more religious people.

I think Honey was, remember the son talking about all the big family dinners she would cook.

Even a non observant Jew whose wife keeps kosher, will eat the Friday seder as well the high holiday meals.

Lets be honest, its food and if thats what she's cooked, you eat it. Food is food and by all accounts she was a great cook.

They still need to have the house cleaned, Thursday is it for the Jewish homes near me. Not sure how observant they all are but the cleaners are there all day Thursday and often on Monday.

 

[Crosby87]

I never heard of the term 'fiduciary duty'. Is it the same as 'Power of Attorney'?

 

[Lilibet]

You'd be surprised at what the neighbors know lol.
I don't know whether KW lives in a house or an apartment block but if he lives in a house, perhaps his neighbors saw the lights on in his home or heard his car when he arrived home. There must be a way he can prove he went home after the meeting.
LE spoke to Sherman's neighbors and asked for surveillance videos.
I live in an apartment block and I know when my neighbors are home because I know their daily routine and I can see their cars parked in their stall from my kitchen window.
When my neighbors aren't home it's very quiet in my apartment.
When they're home I hear them open and close the door to their suites, turn on the water to take a shower, flush the toilet, play video games that sound like a machine gun, play music, and walk across floors that squeak.
I'm very observant and alert.

I’m observant and alert too. But if I don’t realize that what I’m observing is important, there’s a very good chance I won’t remember what happened on a particular day if I’m asked about it later. Don’t ask me what I had for dinner last weekend!

KW’s neighbors might have seen him coming home, but would they really be able to pinpoint the day accurately when LE got around to asking them? Unless they were already well aware of the animosity KW had for BS, I don’t think they would recall noticing his comings and goings when they heard about the murder. They wouldn’t be likely to know it involved an alibi.

A surveillance video would really be the only accurate info IMO.

 

[Lilibet]

So if the maid worked on Thursday, she didn't notice any red flags on Thursday and she didn't discover the bodies because they were hidden in the basement where she didn't go for whatever reason?
I'm surprised she didn't notice Barry's car.
Because Barry said he didn't believe in God, why would he celebrate and participate in Jewish practices and religious beliefs etc?
He said there is no free will yet he did what he wanted. Isn't that what free will is-you do whatever pleases you?

BBM

Ahhh, but Barry believed that our actions are driven by inborne instincts (eating, procreating, caring for others, etc) that make us happy. So in doing what he pleased, he was doing what was instinctual. That meant he didn’t have free will. Make sense? No, I didn’t think so.

 

[JDG]

I never heard of the term 'fiduciary duty'. Is it the same as 'Power of Attorney'?

I think its the legal requirement to act in the best interest of another person in a trust or financial position. IMO

As such it would include Power of Attorney but also executors, trustees etc. IMO

Im not a lawyer, please don't hold me to it. IMO

 

[Ritika]

Many Jewish homes are cleaned on Thursday, in preparation for their Sabbath on Friday. IMO
Wednesday would often be the staffs day off. IMO

This is incorrect. Shabbat starts at sunset Friday night through to sunset on Saturday, so there would be no problem having a maid at the home all day Friday.

 

[human]

So if the maid worked on Thursday, she didn't notice any red flags on Thursday and she didn't discover the bodies because they were hidden in the basement where she didn't go for whatever reason?
I'm surprised she didn't notice Barry's car.
Because Barry said he didn't believe in God, why would he celebrate and participate in Jewish practices and religious beliefs etc?
He said there is no free will yet he did what he wanted. Isn't that what free will is-you do whatever pleases you?

Free will is that you choose, whether good, bad or indifferent. Nothing is preordained and no one controls you

 

[JDG]

This is incorrect. Shabbat starts at sunset Friday night through to sunset on Saturday, so there would be no problem having a maid at the home all day Friday.

Sure, okay. I know when Shabbat starts and ends. I also know that my Jewish neighbours have cleaners in on Thursdays and often Mondays. Just posting about my hood.

 

[JDG]

BBM

Ahhh, but Barry believed that our actions are driven by inborne instincts (eating, procreating, caring for others, etc) that make us happy. So in doing what he pleased, he was doing what was instinctual. That meant he didn’t have free will. Make sense? No, I didn’t think so.

Yes, and everything is mutually beneficial. Mustn't forget that part.

So, if she cooks, he eats. To please both of them. lol

 

[Grey-St]

You'd be surprised at what the neighbors know lol.
I don't know whether KW lives in a house or an apartment block but if he lives in a house, perhaps his neighbors saw the lights on in his home or heard his car when he arrived home. There must be a way he can prove he went home after the meeting.
LE spoke to Sherman's neighbors and asked for surveillance videos.
I live in an apartment block and I know when my neighbors are home because I know their daily routine and I can see their cars parked in their stall from my kitchen window.
When my neighbors aren't home it's very quiet in my apartment.
When they're home I hear them open and close the door to their suites, turn on the water to take a shower, flush the toilet, play video games that sound like a machine gun, play music, and walk across floors that squeak.
I'm very observant and alert.

As am I , I just don't think most folks are. I think KW may have a hard time securing his alibi, jmo.

 

[Grey-St]

Hazel, thank you for once again sorting out the timeline.

I just have one comment about the timeline. Unfortunately, due to the fact that we can only copy bits, some of the more salacious comments get highlighted (maybe unfairly) and important details get omitted. IMO

For instance, 1967, Empire was losing money while under the care of RT. Did BS bring it to their attention? Yes. For the goodness of his heart? Likely not, he wanted to purchase it BUT he also pointed out, quite rightly, that it would give the Winter orphans grounds to sue if it continued to not be run properly. IMO

To me, that part is more important than saying 'he had all the angles covered', because he may have been looking out for his cousins as well as out of self interest. We just don't know. IMO

The other thing is about 'fiduciary duty'. As first cousins, there is NO fiduciary duty to ones younger cousins unless you are the executor/trustee for their deceased parents. BS was neither. IMO

When he bought Empire, those clauses were added, either by RT or BS. It doesn't matter who added them but if it were BS, he was looking out for his cousins. Once Empire was sold, the clauses were no longer available. I believe that is normal business practice. IMO

The Winter orphans were entitled to an inheritance from their parents estate, received it and 'blew through it' is how it was reported. IMO

Earlier, someone pointed out that IF BS had bought a house and done really well but the Winters had also bought a house and not done well, would there be an obligation for BS to share or help out the ones who failed to do well? No. Of course not, we would likely agree. IMO

Just trying to explain fiduciary duty in a more clear manner. It is NOT the same as a familial duty, where one feels obligated from a moral stance to lend a hand or even just a wish to help in some sense when people are in trouble. IMO

Sorry to jump on the back of your timeline but earlier there seemed to be some confusion about fiduciary duty being related to how well someone in the family had done. IMO

Now, I am not claiming sainthood for BS, as I have said before. We really do not know why he tried to help his cousins, it was not a legal requirement and I do think he was trying to help by getting them rehab, homes and starting up their businesses. If anyone had done that for me, I would have considered it helping me and would have been very grateful. IMO

As an astute business man, there is also nothing wrong with understanding and making use of any/all loopholes. People do it every day. Thats why you hire lawyers and accountants. IMO

I do hope that this terrible crime will be solved, that the family will somehow, someday be able to move on without fear and dread. I wish Mary could have her sister back and the children, their parents.

I think this is a super respectful post, and I appreciate your thoughts and insight. While I too would be so very grateful for BS's financial assistance as I'm sure the cousins were, I would be blown out of the water if I found out, what they found out. It would really make me feel completely violated and question his motives entirely.

Additionally, astute business men likely look for 'legal' loopholes all the time, this is true. But the average businessman isn't working with a business once belonging to their deceased uncle whose 4 orphaned children have an understandable interest in. I don't think I'd be looking for loopholes if I were in his shoes.

Lastly, I explained earlier how and why the cousins may have "blown through" their money from a child and adolescent developmental standpoint, so I just hope folks do keep that in mind. "blown through their inheritance" just has such a negative connotation to it. But I respect that's what they essentially did.