Christmas is meaningless to all Jews. They celebrate Hannukah not Christmas. Just because someone says they don't believe in God doesn't mean the family feels the same or they don't follow traditions like Passover, Hannukah, etc. Worship Jehovah? Jews follow the Old Testament. They don't follow the New Testament.
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #6
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Christmas is meaningless to all Jews. They celebrate Hannukah not Christmas. Just because someone says they don't believe in God doesn't mean the family feels the same or they don't follow traditions like Passover, Hannukah, etc. Worship Jehovah? Jews follow the Old Testament. They don't follow the New Testament.
This article was written a week after the bodies were found. The police already said it was a double homicide based on the physical evidence.
Many couples have opposite personalities which complement each other. And many couples rib each other with friends. Hardly a smoking gun to murder suicide. Again, no signs of forced entry means anything. There was a realtor's lock and it is easy to knock on the door and HS lets someone in.
I am not sure why people are going down this road of murder suicide again when the police and all the leaks say otherwise.
Diana Swain on The Investigators covered the challenges of covering the murders on the Fifth Estate and presenting opinions.
Sounds like they may have they edited out some things that they felt should not be publicized pending the police investigation.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/theinvestigators/the-sherman-murders-the-challenges-of-covering-the-investigation-cnn-s-brian-stelter-on-anchors-sharing-opinions-on-cable-news-the-investigators-with-diana-swain-1.4518478
Sounds like they may have they edited out some things that they felt should not be publicized pending the police investigation.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/theinvestigators/the-sherman-murders-the-challenges-of-covering-the-investigation-cnn-s-brian-stelter-on-anchors-sharing-opinions-on-cable-news-the-investigators-with-diana-swain-1.4518478
Sherlockhemlock
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BS was a vocal atheist but I suspect based on some early articles HS was at least nominally observant and possibly raised the kids to be somewhat observant even if only nominally (Hebrew school, bar mitzvah, etc). JMO
A huge leap? One son is bi-polar, another died from drugs, another left home at 15 and was a drug addict. It speaks for itself. Mother made a big mistake handing them over to these two. End of story.
MizStery
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Thank-you Tortoise for highlighting that Webseluths has TOS Rules against victim bashing. The agreement states that :tos: stipulate that we are to use the icon to alert mods if that rule is broken. That way the mods are not forever using :thewhip: & giving warnings.
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Sherlockhemlock
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Excellent points. One note. AFAIK the options was only made for the first purchase offer which was declined. A couple of years later BS went back after the company was for sale with a partner and I dont believe the options were part of the final sale contract.
KW indicated that LE Asked him if he would submit to a polygraph, which he evidently refused. It seems to me that he would have also spouted off to the press about being asked to provide a DNA sample if LE had asked him. If one assumes they didnt ask him if he was willing to submit one, can we
then assume that LE have found no DNA at the scene that doesn’t belong to bs, Hs, or other individuals already identified?
then assume that LE have found no DNA at the scene that doesn’t belong to bs, Hs, or other individuals already identified?
I doubt it. LE didn't even bother to interview KW, let alone ask for DNA samples, at least during the first 6 weeks after the murders.
Sherlockhemlock
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One of the articles above mentioned BS PhD dissertation led to his first patent, which in aeronautical engineering can be quite lucrative. It would also explain how he knew his way around patent loopholes.
Link? I was going from the info contained in my link above: [FONT=&]https://torontolife.com/from-the-arc...-the-archives/[/FONT]
Sherlockhemlock
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Yes a huge leap. I grew up in a family with very similar circumstances and all of the kids were successful and led normal lives. Contrarily, my husbands family had two married devoted parents. My husband turned out fine but his sister is a narcissistic entitled brat. It doesnt speak for itself at all and you were not part of the family so you are projecting IMO. Not end of story.
Deugirtni can you please clarify your answer, I am not sure what you mean. Thank you.
And YOU are not projecting? Unbelievable. These three boys were harmed. MOO
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Bipolar has a very strong genetic component: https://www.healthline.com/health/is-bipolar-disorder-hereditary#causes
So does drug abuse: https://www.ncadd.org/about-addiction/family-history-and-genetics
Sherlockhemlock
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Im not unequivocally stating they would be better off with both parents. You are. They harmed themselves, or did you know the adopted parents?
Sherlockhemlock
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I cant find it right now but it was a passing reference. On my way to church. Will look again this afternoon.
It's so easy to pass judgement on these boys when you haven't been in their situation.
Everyone is sympathetic to the orphans, as they should be - afterall, they lost both parents at a very young age and had to spend the rest of their childhoods being raised by people who apparently weren't loving. But BS also suffered loss when LW died. Up until a few years before his death, BS was slated to be LW's heir. LW was a father figure to BS since he was a teenager. Suddenly LW had 4 kids. After LW grooming BS to become involved in the pharma industry, BS was left out in the cold when LW died.
BS was only a young guy, age 18 when LW adopted his first child, and 22 when LW's last child was born. He was 25 when LW died. Suddenly he was out of the picture. He offered to RUN the company (not to buy it as some have reported, at least according to the 2008 in-depth article), upholding its value for the orphans, in return for the right to purchase it IF the company should come up for sale. He made this offer to BW, who made no decision prior to her death days later, and then made the same offer to the trustees, who declined, saying they would run the company. So BS went off to complete graduate school in the US. When he returned a couple of years later, he found that Empire had lost 20% of its sales under the direction of the trustees, and so made a comment to them about possible future litigation by the 'orphans'. A week later the trustees put the business for sale on the open market.
Not only was BS not given a better price, due to his personal relationship he had held with its deceased owner, he paid MORE for it than the other bidder who was not at all related. And not only was he allowed to then purchase it, but there were stipulations for these 2 'options', which would NOT have been able to be effected had Empire's sale gone through to the other bidder. Because of BS's relationship with LW, he was actually penalized. If that were me, I have to admit, I would be p!$$ed!
He went on to double the company's original sales (before the trustees had demolished 20%), and then sold it - an offer too good to pass up, and remained as an employee, *until* they fired him 6 months later. What's the guy going to do? Go get a job somewhere else? Start his own business in the field he's experienced in? Or do something totally different just so the orphans can't come after him for profits he makes on his totally separate, unrelated company? Just seems bizarre to me. Also seems to me like Beverly Winter cut off her kids' noses to spite their faces, and was their worst enemy, both by not allowing her own brother, who presumably may have actually *loved* the boys, to adopt her FOUR children, but also by being so suspicious of a friend and relative who actually cared about the business, was experienced, had been taken under her husband's wing to learn some things, and who was incredibly smart. Seems to me like BW had some serious trust issues, and perhaps also some greed issues (her brother had said he felt she didn't want him to get what was hers.) But... jmo!
Barry attended Lou’s funeral, then visited Beverley in the hospital, where they talked about what might happen to Empire and the children’s future interests. He said that if she and the executors wished, he would take over the business and protect its value for the benefit of the children. In return, they would have to grant him the right to purchase the company if it came up for sale. Beverley discussed the idea but made no decision. Seventeen days later, she was dead.
Three days after her death, Barry made the same proposal to trustees of the Winter estate. They said no, that they would continue to run the business. And so the children’s legacy—Empire Labs and a trust fund—remained in the hands of two lawyers, an accountant and Royal Trust.
Barry returned to school and completed his PhD. His dissertation led to his first patent, a system to control satellites in orbit. He was a young man with great prospects when he abandoned astronautical engineering to seek an opportunity in a scientific business, the one he knew best, and returned to Toronto early in 1967. He looked into Empire’s performance—either out of concern for Lou’s sons or a personal desire to buy the company on the cheap—and reported to the trustees that sales had declined from more than $1 million a year in 1965 to about $800,000. He suggested that Lou’s children might some day hold Royal Trust liable for negligence if it didn’t keep Empire from insolvency.
Within a week, the trustees had put the company up for sale. Sherman and Joel Ulster, a high school friend, bought it for approximately $350,000, beating out a Montreal firm. Sherman’s mother, Sara, guaranteed a loan of $100,000 and Ulster put up $150,000 borrowed from his father, who also arranged for an operating line of credit. Two options were added to protect the Orphan Children—the phrase that the surviving sons, now in their late 40s, still use to describe themselves. The first states that all of Lou Winter’s sons would be given the opportunity to become “responsible full-time employees” once they turned 21 or completed their formal education. Second, any employed child who worked two years with the company would “have the right to purchase five per cent of the issued shares of the company or companies owning the purchased business.” However, the option could be exercised only if Sherman, Ulster or Ulster’s father kept control of the business.
Those were promising years for generic drug companies. Empire’s annual sales, now including the generic psycho*pharmaceuticals Librium and Stelazine, reached almost $2 million. Then, in 1972, ICN Pharmaceuticals expressed an interest in buying Empire and merging it with their Canadian operations. Sherman and Ulster, ambivalent at first, decided to let ICN evaluate their company. When the offer came in at just under $2 million, they took it, netting a few hundred thousand each. ICN made it a condition of sale that none of the principal shareholders in Empire could go back into the same business for five years. Fortunately for Barry, his shares were held by Bernard C. Sherman Limited. ICN must not have noticed the loophole. When Sherman launched Apotex the following year, ICN didn’t exercise its non-compete clause.
Business boomed, thanks to a combination of lucky timing and entrepreneurial savvy. Barry started with 5,000 square feet, employed two people and made only compressed tablets. He selected about a dozen established products with an eye to getting them to market quickly, then sold them cheaply by mail order and telemarketing. Further changes in the law during the Trudeau years allowed greater scope and removed some advantages of brand name companies. By the ’90s, there were a dozen generic drug companies in Canada. Apotex was the biggest.
Kerry and Tim claim their father’s company made Barry’s success possible. But with the sale of Empire, they lost any interest they might have had in it. Or did they? They maintain that without Empire there could be no Apotex, therefore Barry has a legal obligation to hand over five per cent of his present assets to each of Lou’s sons or heirs. That’s what he promised when he bought Empire Labs. They claim that Barry sold it to weasel out of his commitment to them.
[FONT="]https://torontolife.com/from-the-archives/barry-sherman-bitter-pill-from-the-archives/[/FONT]
Before she died, Beverley Winter left instructions that her children not be adopted by any relatives. Her brother, Wayne Rockcliffe, still wonders why she didn’t choose him and his wife. At that time they had no children. They were willing to move into the Winter home and send the boys to Upper Canada College. But Beverley, a convert to Judaism, wanted her sons to be raised as Jews. Rockcliffe thinks that his sister “just didn’t want us to have what was hers. What a shame that was!”
https://torontolife.com/from-the-archives/barry-sherman-bitter-pill-from-the-archives/
BS was only a young guy, age 18 when LW adopted his first child, and 22 when LW's last child was born. He was 25 when LW died. Suddenly he was out of the picture. He offered to RUN the company (not to buy it as some have reported, at least according to the 2008 in-depth article), upholding its value for the orphans, in return for the right to purchase it IF the company should come up for sale. He made this offer to BW, who made no decision prior to her death days later, and then made the same offer to the trustees, who declined, saying they would run the company. So BS went off to complete graduate school in the US. When he returned a couple of years later, he found that Empire had lost 20% of its sales under the direction of the trustees, and so made a comment to them about possible future litigation by the 'orphans'. A week later the trustees put the business for sale on the open market.
Not only was BS not given a better price, due to his personal relationship he had held with its deceased owner, he paid MORE for it than the other bidder who was not at all related. And not only was he allowed to then purchase it, but there were stipulations for these 2 'options', which would NOT have been able to be effected had Empire's sale gone through to the other bidder. Because of BS's relationship with LW, he was actually penalized. If that were me, I have to admit, I would be p!$$ed!
He went on to double the company's original sales (before the trustees had demolished 20%), and then sold it - an offer too good to pass up, and remained as an employee, *until* they fired him 6 months later. What's the guy going to do? Go get a job somewhere else? Start his own business in the field he's experienced in? Or do something totally different just so the orphans can't come after him for profits he makes on his totally separate, unrelated company? Just seems bizarre to me. Also seems to me like Beverly Winter cut off her kids' noses to spite their faces, and was their worst enemy, both by not allowing her own brother, who presumably may have actually *loved* the boys, to adopt her FOUR children, but also by being so suspicious of a friend and relative who actually cared about the business, was experienced, had been taken under her husband's wing to learn some things, and who was incredibly smart. Seems to me like BW had some serious trust issues, and perhaps also some greed issues (her brother had said he felt she didn't want him to get what was hers.) But... jmo!
Barry attended Lou’s funeral, then visited Beverley in the hospital, where they talked about what might happen to Empire and the children’s future interests. He said that if she and the executors wished, he would take over the business and protect its value for the benefit of the children. In return, they would have to grant him the right to purchase the company if it came up for sale. Beverley discussed the idea but made no decision. Seventeen days later, she was dead.
Three days after her death, Barry made the same proposal to trustees of the Winter estate. They said no, that they would continue to run the business. And so the children’s legacy—Empire Labs and a trust fund—remained in the hands of two lawyers, an accountant and Royal Trust.
Barry returned to school and completed his PhD. His dissertation led to his first patent, a system to control satellites in orbit. He was a young man with great prospects when he abandoned astronautical engineering to seek an opportunity in a scientific business, the one he knew best, and returned to Toronto early in 1967. He looked into Empire’s performance—either out of concern for Lou’s sons or a personal desire to buy the company on the cheap—and reported to the trustees that sales had declined from more than $1 million a year in 1965 to about $800,000. He suggested that Lou’s children might some day hold Royal Trust liable for negligence if it didn’t keep Empire from insolvency.
Within a week, the trustees had put the company up for sale. Sherman and Joel Ulster, a high school friend, bought it for approximately $350,000, beating out a Montreal firm. Sherman’s mother, Sara, guaranteed a loan of $100,000 and Ulster put up $150,000 borrowed from his father, who also arranged for an operating line of credit. Two options were added to protect the Orphan Children—the phrase that the surviving sons, now in their late 40s, still use to describe themselves. The first states that all of Lou Winter’s sons would be given the opportunity to become “responsible full-time employees” once they turned 21 or completed their formal education. Second, any employed child who worked two years with the company would “have the right to purchase five per cent of the issued shares of the company or companies owning the purchased business.” However, the option could be exercised only if Sherman, Ulster or Ulster’s father kept control of the business.
Those were promising years for generic drug companies. Empire’s annual sales, now including the generic psycho*pharmaceuticals Librium and Stelazine, reached almost $2 million. Then, in 1972, ICN Pharmaceuticals expressed an interest in buying Empire and merging it with their Canadian operations. Sherman and Ulster, ambivalent at first, decided to let ICN evaluate their company. When the offer came in at just under $2 million, they took it, netting a few hundred thousand each. ICN made it a condition of sale that none of the principal shareholders in Empire could go back into the same business for five years. Fortunately for Barry, his shares were held by Bernard C. Sherman Limited. ICN must not have noticed the loophole. When Sherman launched Apotex the following year, ICN didn’t exercise its non-compete clause.
Business boomed, thanks to a combination of lucky timing and entrepreneurial savvy. Barry started with 5,000 square feet, employed two people and made only compressed tablets. He selected about a dozen established products with an eye to getting them to market quickly, then sold them cheaply by mail order and telemarketing. Further changes in the law during the Trudeau years allowed greater scope and removed some advantages of brand name companies. By the ’90s, there were a dozen generic drug companies in Canada. Apotex was the biggest.
Kerry and Tim claim their father’s company made Barry’s success possible. But with the sale of Empire, they lost any interest they might have had in it. Or did they? They maintain that without Empire there could be no Apotex, therefore Barry has a legal obligation to hand over five per cent of his present assets to each of Lou’s sons or heirs. That’s what he promised when he bought Empire Labs. They claim that Barry sold it to weasel out of his commitment to them.
[FONT="]https://torontolife.com/from-the-archives/barry-sherman-bitter-pill-from-the-archives/[/FONT]
Before she died, Beverley Winter left instructions that her children not be adopted by any relatives. Her brother, Wayne Rockcliffe, still wonders why she didn’t choose him and his wife. At that time they had no children. They were willing to move into the Winter home and send the boys to Upper Canada College. But Beverley, a convert to Judaism, wanted her sons to be raised as Jews. Rockcliffe thinks that his sister “just didn’t want us to have what was hers. What a shame that was!”
https://torontolife.com/from-the-archives/barry-sherman-bitter-pill-from-the-archives/
You said: KW indicated that LE Asked him if he would submit to a polygraph, which he evidently refused. It seems to me that he would have also spouted off to the press about being asked to provide a DNA sample if LE had asked him. If one assumes they didnt ask him if he was willing to submit one, can we then assume that LE have found no DNA at the scene that doesn’t belong to bs, Hs, or other individuals already identified?
I said.. I doubt that LE has asked for DNA, and I doubt we can speculate that no DNA was found at the scene based on not asking for DNA, since... at least up to minimum 6 weeks post-murders, they had not even bothered to interview KW, who seems like he would've been one of the first ones that should have been interviewed, imho.
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