Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #6

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No you can’t. Some conditions are only for company “a” and not “b”. In this case it would have been a clause created simply because the children were heirs of Empire. They were not heirs on any other company so it is only related to the purchase of Empire IF they had taken the offer which they didn’t. And what bro you assume that it was BS not the adoptive parents as the instigator of no contact. Even if it was his lack of effort, he was a busy man, marriage, career, kids, business. He had more pressing obligations. Finally, just because you are related doesn’t mean you need or want a real relationship. I have plenty of cousins I haven’t seen in decades nor do I care to. Doesn’t make me indecent.
I've heard and read nothing to suggest that BS put in that effort. He defended his no contact in his deposition quoted in Friday's The Fifth Estate episode, nothing was mentioned that he tried or was "too busy". And what you're suggesting with losing touch with family usually occurs when folks become adults. They were 4 children who lost their parents. BS also knows what that's like, and knows that when his Uncle (their father) maintained a consistent relationship with him, it was very beneficial. It seems that BS had a close relationship with LW, I find it strange that he wouldn't want the same with his kids. I've always maintained that is seems like that significant adults around these kids let them down, so it's not just BS. I think it's okay to sympathize with them at that age, when they had done nothing at that point in time for us to judge.
 
He was a ruthless businessman. It’s not strange at all.

I just read your comment and perhaps that is 'it' when reduced to the lowest common denominator. [FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]BS had an 180 IQ and he did not suffer fools. He certainly had the assets and wealth to document his absolute brilliance in business.

I truly believe that the perpetrators will be apprehended. Then the Sherman children hopefully can find some measure of justice. There is no doubt in my mind that their pain and greiving will never be eased.
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:cow:
 
Did they go after anyone other then Rich Uncle? The offer was made by Sherman & Ulster. Was Ulster named in the lawsuit?

Sherman's offer was rejected by Royal Trust and never became part of the final Agreement to Purchase. The sale went forward without any clause that would give the cousins a right to purchase shares in the Empire company. Was Royal Trust sued by the cousins?
Yes, Royal Trust was sued by the cousins. They weren't successful there either.
 
They look like a normal loving couple to me in photos. I trust law enforcement’s determination that both Barry and Honey were murdered.
There are tons of "normal loving couples" on Facebook. Lol people put on their best face for the cameras. Behind closed doors is a completely different matter moo

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk
 
Not that I'm much of a business minded person but how could that clause have existed at Empire if this is the case?

At the end of the day I believe what Barry did when he sold Empire and founded Apotex was done to leave that clause behind, to wriggle out of it, but the Winter boys should have gone after Royal Trust because they were negligent not to notice the loophole Barry exploited concerning the five year clause and his share ownership being corporate.
Sadly, they did go after RT and weren't successful there either.
 
I just read your comment and perhaps that is 'it' when reduced to the lowest common denominator. [FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]BS had an 180 IQ and he did not suffer fools. He certainly had the assets and wealth to document his absolute brilliance in business.

I truly believe that the perpetrators will be apprehended. Then the Sherman children hopefully can find some measure of justice. There is no doubt in my mind that their pain and greiving will never be eased.
[/FONT]

:cow:

Thank you for commenting on the Sherman children's grief. After reading so many posts, I have felt like they have been forgotten in this horrible ordeal. First to have that rumor of murder-suicide after the gruesome discovery of their parents...then to have TPS publicly state that it was a double homicide...only to be followed up by all those hateful comments from KW as he non-stop made the media circuit.
 
It’s his money. He owned shares and sold them and used the cash.

if you own shares of McDonalds and sell them, the cash is your asset. It doesn’t trace to McDonalds.

As as long as his dealings with the sale of Empire were on the up and up, there isn’t really an issue.
Sure, legally. But in its simplest form, the sale of Empire did snowball into the creation of Apotex. JMO.
 
Underneath all the layers I see issues of abandonment and rejection. It looks like money on the face of it but I think the layers go deeper. Its not so much the financial security their parents wanted for them I think it's acknowledging what love they lost when their parents died suddenly, their whole worlds, perhaps even a pain that could never be assuaged by money without an acknowledgement of the legacy of love behind it that was meant to be handed to them and never was.
 
Thank you for commenting on the Sherman children's grief. After reading so many posts, I have felt like they have been forgotten in this horrible ordeal. First to have that rumor of murder-suicide after the gruesome discovery of their parents...then to have TPS publicly state that it was a double homicide...only to be followed up by all those hateful comments from KW as he non-stop made the media circuit.
It seems like that but motive is the part that will solve this so I think these developments deserve in-depth scrutiny, as unsavoury as it is. IMO.

Ever working towards justice for the Sherman children.
 
I just read your comment and perhaps that is 'it' when reduced to the lowest common denominator. [FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]BS had an 180 IQ and he did not suffer fools. He certainly had the assets and wealth to document his absolute brilliance in business.

I truly believe that the perpetrators will be apprehended. Then the Sherman children hopefully can find some measure of justice. There is no doubt in my mind that their pain and greiving will never be eased.
[/FONT]

:cow:
Let's hope so, MizStery. I really, truly hope so. I woke up this morning with the most simplistic question "who killed Honey and Barry Sherman?!" Amongst such a circus and so many passionate opinions, this truly is the most important question. With the possibilities seeming endless, I just can't put my finger on it, and I'm sure most can relate.
 
We don't know why BS stopped communications with his cousins when they were young. The mother stipulated that she did not want family raising her son's. I think that is possible that the adoptive parents may have stopped any family from contacting the boys. Family may of stepped back to allow the adoptive parents to raise the children without thier influences. Maybe hoping that when the boys became of age they would come looking for them.
We do not know why the communication between BS and the cousins stopped. Blaming BS for it without knowing the why seems like victim bashing to me. For all we know he may of tried to stay in thier lives but denied.
 
We don't know why BS stopped communications with his cousins when they were young. The mother stipulated that she did not want family raising her son's. I think that is possible that the adoptive parents may have stopped any family from contacting the boys. Family may of stepped back to allow the adoptive parents to raise the children without thier influences. Maybe hoping that when the boys became of age they would come looking for them.
We do not know why the communication between BS and the cousins stopped. Blaming BS for it without knowing the why seems like victim bashing to me. For all we know he may of tried to stay in thier lives but denied.
It's acknowledged that Barry had many enemies but that isn't to say he deserved to be murdered. It's not victim bashing to look at how he may have contributed to having enemies.
 
JDG, it's true we cannot copy and paste much (only 10%) - also my English is not very good, so it's hard for me to express exactly what I want to say, and also I don't want to get in trouble.

I wish we could copy from all articles and read as a historical book.

Please notice that BS went to talk to Mrs. BW three days after LW died, so that's 14 days before she passed away, and made his first offer to purchase Empire.
She never made a decision, however she told one of the trustees her fears that BS wanted to take the company from her "babies" (3, 4, 5 and 7).

Three days after she dies, BS went to the trustees and makes an offer to buy the company. They said "no".

He went to University, and two years later, again he offers to buy the company. If he was so concerned for the children, he could have asked to be given the opportunity to work for Empire as a Manager or Scientist, but NO, he wanted to buy it, and buy it for cheap.

We don't know if it was at that point that he put the shares under his name or under that company Bernard C. Sherman Ltd., or if he did that afterwards.
Why were the shares not in his name instead?

He was very adamant in purchasing Empire, he could have just open Apotex with his mother's $ and partner, without having to buy Empire, only to re-sell it to International Chemical and Nuclear (ICN) two years later for $2 million, and start working for ICN for 6 months until he was fired.

We know the rest of the story.
Do you still believe he had the children's interests in mind when acquiring Empire?
How old were the orphan children when BS bought Empire? 5, 6, 7 and 9?

Sorry but as a businesswoman none of that precludes care for the children.
 
How old were the orphan children when BS bought Empire? 5, 6, 7 and 9?

"In 1967, after completing his PhD, Sherman purchased the Empire Group of Companies from the executor of the estate of his aunt and uncle, Beverley and Louis Lloyd Winter, as both had died seventeen days apart in November 1965, leaving four orphaned young children: Paul Timothy, Jeffrey Andrew, Kerry Joel Dexter, and Dana Charles."


"By 1973, the year Sherman sold Empire, Kerry, then 12 years old, and his closest brother, 11-year-old Dana, were extremely unhappy."

The mother BW did not want family raising her sons, so perhaps that is why family and relatives were not more involved when they were being raised. She also did not want her brother to raise the children:

"Her brother, Wayne Rockcliffe, still wonders why she didn’t choose him and his wife. At that time they had no children. They were willing to move into the Winter home and send the boys to Upper Canada College. But Beverley, a convert to Judaism, wanted her sons to be raised as Jews. "
 
I assumed all Jews worshipped God until I met Barry Sherman. Because Barry didn't believe in God, did this couple participate in the practices and the traditions of the Jewish people who do worship Jehovah or did they separate themselves from it? Did they attend a synogogue? Wouldn't Christmas be meaningless for them?

The family lived a very Jewish life. Not sure if BS was just giving lip service or what, either for/against G_d.

The son did remove his yarmulka while speaking of his father, however.
 
I think it stinks that some are making judgement on BS not handing these ingrates 20% of his business, just because he was the unlucky one whose offer to purchase Empire was chosen over the other offer when the trustees SOLD it on the open market. He should've just started his own company right then, instead of having the monkey of those 2 options on his back. The real problem is that the elder Winter never bothered to think ahead to look after his family by figuring out what would happen to his company in the event of his early demise, and how his kids would be taken care of.

Imagine if BS had NOT made an offer to purchase Empire, and the sale had instead gone through to the Montreal bidder. Would that bidder have had to sign an 'options' clause to look after the previous owner's kids several years into the future? I think not!

Empire was for sale on the open market, and just because BS happened to have a close personal relationship with the deceased, he became beholden to the 2 options. Meanwhile, he had to borrow money to buy it, and had his OWN intelligence with which to run such a business, which had zero to do with the orphans or his deceased uncle. It seems Empire actually required some brains to run the biz successfully - it had lost 20% of its annual revenues when run by the trustees before selling, but yet they chose NOT to allow BS to run it when he had offered to do so. Later it was listed on the open market, when BS paid MORE than the competitor. BS wasn't given any breaks or 'deals' because of his personal relationship with the deceased, he bought it fair and square, in fact paying MORE than the competitor was willing to pay.

Why should BS have been penalized like that? Without BS's offer, the other firm would have been the buyer for less money, and without such stipulations. That seems unfair right off the bat.

BS and his partner turned the company around to double its revenues within a few short years, attracting another company to want to buy it. They got an offer too good to pass up, and so they sold it to them. And along with the sale, went the 'options' requirement for the orphans. The orphans were still young at the time, so there was no question they hadn't met the requirements of the options.. and for all BS knew at the time, the orphans had been adopted into a loving family, as I don't believe he had contact with them at that time.

It was okay for the trustees/executors to make a business decision to sell the company they had been entrusted to look after... but it wasn't okay for BS to do the same with the company he paid for? The trustees got off the hook from being responsible for the orphans' future windfall, but BS was supposed to keep that obligation forever, even when he sold the company and no longer had anything to do with it? All because he happened to know the dead guy?

Who says any of the kids would have worked there in the first place, nevermind having been able to stick it out for minimum 2 years as 'responsible fulltime employees'? And wasn't it 5% per each orphan of the 'issued shares' - how many shares were 'issued', and what was the purchase price of the shares, and would the orphans have even have wanted to spend any money they had on making such a purchase by the time they met the requirements? At age 15 it seems KW started getting into trouble - and what would have been different if BS had not sold Empire? KW's and his brothers' issues don't seem to have anything to do with who owned Empire. BS selling or not selling, wasn't going to impact the family lives of the orphans, how they were being raised by their new family, their genes, or etc.

I got the impression that after selling Empire, BS remained on as an employee, but then was fired after 6 months. It was only then that BS made the decision to start up his own company, from scratch. He was good at it, and on it went to become what it became.

One way or another, at one time or another, by one party or another, Empire sold and no longer had anything to do with the orphans. The orphans presumably would have received the proceeds of the sale of Empire when the trustees sold it, the monies which BS paid for it, just as they would've received the proceeds from any other buyer, and that would've been it. But later, BS was said to have been like a 'bank' to the orphans, with KW's 'allowance' alone being up to $20,000/week at one point. He funded their businesses, bailed them out of trouble, tried to get them help when needed, bought them properties, funded their unsecured loans.

BS *was* being generous with them, even though not obligated to be, until the orphans got greedy and started thinking they were entitled to even more. Too bad for them that they didn't just continue to enjoy having a sugar daddy and become productive business owners, each in their individually chosen fields, with benefit of a great business mentor, instead of getting greedy, spending probably hundreds of thousands on legal fees dragging whoever they could through the courts, for years, trying to get more, and losing out on the generosity afforded them by one of Canada's wealthiest men. How many courts and judges will it take until they accept that their entitlement ended decades ago? Do they have any regrets in how they handled themselves? Did they already get their revenge?
[FONT=&quot] “For me it isn’t about shekels, it’s about revenge!” [/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]https://torontolife.com/from-the-archives/barry-sherman-bitter-pill-from-the-archives/[/FONT]
Goodman remembers being Sherman’s boss after his employer at the time, California-based ICN Pharmaceuticals, bought Empire from Sherman in the early 1970s. After about six months, he was ordered to fire Sherman and reluctantly did so.

“I fired him. He would tell me later that was the best thing that ever happened to him,” said Goodman. “He says, ‘Don’t worry about it, Morris, I was planning to quit anyhow.’ And he started Apotex (in 1974).

[FONT=&quot]https://www.thestar.com/business/20...r-barry-sherman-will-be-tough-to-replace.html[/FONT]
 
Not that I'm much of a business minded person but how could that clause have existed at Empire if this is the case?

At the end of the day I believe what Barry did when he sold Empire and founded Apotex was done to leave that clause behind, to wriggle out of it, but the Winter boys should have gone after Royal Trust because they were negligent not to notice the loophole Barry exploited concerning the five year clause and his share ownership being corporate.

It never did in fact but if the partnership purchased all the stock and the partners agreed then it could be part of the contract. Which fits with what I have read about the clause offered (not accepted). There was no clause to leave behind and there are plenty of reasons to sell a business. Since Ulster was not part of Apotex it could have been sold in order to dissolve the partnership.

Royal Trust had nothing to do with the loophole, that related to the company who purchased Empire,but I do agree RT RT all were negligent in their duties. I also believe the kids had a decent inheritance and resources from the rest of the estate ( there was more than Empire) and the sale and the adoptive parents and squandered it. JMO
 
It's acknowledged that Barry had many enemies but that isn't to say he deserved to be murdered. It's not victim bashing to look at how he may have contributed to having enemies.
I understand what you are saying and I agree that the cousins are a big part of who could of done the murders. Where I think it is victim bashing is when comments are made blaming BS for not being there for the cousins when they were growing up. We don't know why the communications stopped. For all we know he wanted a relationship and was denied.
 
Sure, legally. But in its simplest form, the sale of Empire did snowball into the creation of Apotex. JMO.

I think that’s too simplistic.

He didn't sell Empire to start Apotex. We don’t know that he used exclusively those funds or any of them.

He worked as as an employee for 6 months, and it seems like Apotex was incorporated about two years after the sale. He likely commingled his Empire money with any other assets he had at the time. We don’t really know how Apotex was capitalized. To conclude it was on a direct line from the share sale is speculative and not supported by the timeline.
 
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