Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #6

[Veeduck]

KW indicated that LE Asked him if he would submit to a polygraph, which he evidently refused. It seems to me that he would have also spouted off to the press about being asked to provide a DNA sample if LE had asked him. If one assumes they didnt ask him if he was willing to submit one, can we
then assume that LE have found no DNA at the scene that doesn’t belong to bs, Hs, or other individuals already identified?

Presumably TPS is still collecting DNA swabs from their "extensive list" of people they want to interview (as Det.-Sgt. Gomes put it in the presser). If police need to detect (or rule out) extremely trace amounts of nuclear - or even mitochondrial - DNA at the crime scenes, then it could take months, even with extensive PCR amplification and highly labelled probes. So it may, in fact, be a long time before DNA testing is completed.

AFAIK, the public has no way of knowing whether or not any particular kind of evidence was found at the crime scene, unless/until TPS divulges it. Understandably, the police will keep evidential disclosures to an absolute minimum prior to an eventual grand jury and trial.

With that said, I noticed on the Fifth Estate episode that Kerry Winter was offered, and drank from, a water bottle during the polygraph examination. If KW didn't take the bottle with him when he left, then it's easy, and entirely legal, to obtain his DNA from it. I doubt that anyone on the production crew actually collected it, though. JMO.

(I'm still catching up on this thread, so please excuse the repeat if this question has already been addressed by now.)

 

[Pamela_Brewer]

There must be many things equally or more effective than leather belts for strangling. Seems like an odd choice for planned and premeditated.

I can’t see meticulous killers bringing in belts and leaving them behind with potential fingerprints or trace evidence.

This is what I can't reconcile.
Even new belts would have "someone's" DNA on them.

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[Crosby87]

I don’t believe it was ruled anything - the murder suicide thing was a leak based on their initial (rushed) impressions.

You're right, ruled is incorrect, however I disagree that LE's murder suicide theory was unfounded and rushed..

""A police source confirmed to the Star that an early working theory for investigators was that the deaths were a case of murder-suicide. =

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...ut-the-deaths-of-barry-and-honey-sherman.html

 

[ldlager]

If an intruder attacked Honey before Barry arrived, did he leave Honey lying in a pool of her own blood while he waited for Barry?
LE saw a pool of Honey's blood on the floor so the intruder didn't clean it up.

It doesn't sound like Barry fought back, but if Honey did, why wouldn't Barry?

How did the intruder manage to get Barry down the basement stairs and into the pool area without knocking him out first?

Imo it wouldn’t make sense for a single killer to leave HS unconscious in another part of the house while the killer camped out near a door or window or outside the house waiting for BS to arrive. So my assumption is that she was murdered before BS arrived home; or else there was more than 1 intruder, one of whom watched HS while the other(s) waited for BS; or HS was moved near the door or window where the killer could watch her and watch for BS at the same time. Imo

 

[Crosby87]

Didnt one of the reports indicate the belts were fastened or tightened around the necks and looped over or tied to the railing? I think I recall inferring or understanding from that that the buckle was engaged and fastened around the necks, like a belt is fastened and worn around the waist. If so, a robe belt wouldn’t have a buckle? Going from memory after reading so many posts and news articles. I’m sure someone can confirm or clarify. Tks

I read that too and I wondered if they belonged to Barry.

 

[kay74]

This is what I can't reconcile.
Even new belts would have "someone's" DNA on them.

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I presume they wore gloves.

 

[AllyJane]

P

Understandably, the police will keep evidential disclosures to an absolute minimum prior to an eventual grand jury and trial.

Just to be clear for the non-Canadian readers, we don't have grand juries in Canada. There are prelim trials where there is a media blackout until the actual criminal trial.

It is very likely that the police have more evidence that they are letting on right now. There were a few key questions about the crime scene the Det Sgt Gomes refused to answer.

 

[kiwi50]

Imo it wouldn’t make sense for a single killer to leave HS unconscious in another part of the house while the killer camped out near a door or window or outside the house waiting for BS to arrive. So my assumption is that she was murdered before BS arrived home; or else there was more than 1 intruder, one of whom watched HS while the other(s) waited for BS; or HS was moved near the door or window where the killer could watch her and watch for BS at the same time. Imo

Yes that seems logical. I think very risky leaving Honey alive, if only one killer, if the object was simply to kill them both rather than torment or torture them first.

 

[Crosby87]

I presume they wore gloves.

It depends what kind of gloves were used.

Wearing gloves in almost all instances would prevent a fingerprint being deposited on the surface, but research has proved that thinner gloves, mostly latex gloves, would still leave a fingerprint, through the glove, on most surfaces. Prints left in that way can still be developed and used for identification.

 

[AllyJane]

Yes that seems logical. I think very risky leaving Honey alive, if only one killer, if the object was simply to kill them both rather than torment or torture them first.

I can see them keeping her alive and bound until BS came home if they were trying to get something out of him (open the safe, sign docs, etc). But that sounds like a long wait until BS came home which sounds like complete terror for HS if the intruder(s) came in around the time she came home seeing that she was still wearing her coat. Still sounds likely there would be more than one killer.

 

[Breamworthy]

The reason LE didn't interview KW soon after the murders is because they ruled it a murder suicide case.

I don't think this was ever true, at least not for more than a few hours. Within a day they would have had preliminary autopsy results and known that their wrists were previously bound.

A police source at the scene within hours of the discovery said they were investigating the possibility of it being a murder/suicide, but they would have known almost immediately this wasn't the case.

 

[Twinkle]

Barry’s Mustang car was towed from the garage by LE. If he drove the Mustang to work as set out in the FE show, he could have arrived home and parked right in the garage. The access to the house from the garage is on the lower level, near the pool entrance. So BS may never have been upstairs after he got home. Jmo

Wasn't Honey's car sitting in the driveway to the underground garage? How does that make any sense? She supposedly arrived home first. How did Barry's mustang get in the underground garage? Wasn't Honeys SUV in the way?

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[AllyJane]

Wasn't Honey's car sitting in the driveway to the underground garage? How does that make any sense? She supposedly arrived home first. How did Barry's mustang get in the underground garage? Wasn't Honeys SUV in the way?

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Her car was parked near the front door but not sure that blocks entrance to the garage on the lower level. She had arthritis so it makes sense for her to park on the main floor instead of the garage where she would have to walk upstairs to the main level. Their new house was going to have an elevator which I assume was to assist her with her arthritis in the future.

 

[clearskies1]

There was a horrible murder in NYC about 10 years ago in which an actress was found hanging from a bedsheet from the shower rod in her bathroom. It was initially thought to be a suicide but ultimately they arrested a guy who was doing construction in the building. I believe the guy entered her aptmt and she walked in on him as he was stealing money from her wallet. He strangled her and tied her up to the shower rod hoping it would look like a suicide.

I'm wondering if something similar could have happened here.... perhaps someone came to the home with the intention of talking to Honey but things blew up and the person strangled her, then Barry comes home...and the person figures the only way is to strangle him too and then he ties them to the pool railing to make it look like a double suicide?

It's just strange to me that they were killed by strangling/ligature. If a killer came with the intention of killing you would think they would have a gun, especially if the intent was to kill 2 people. I just don't know if this really was a planned-in-advance murder. JMO.

 

[AllyJane]

There was a horrible murder in NYC about 10 years ago in which an actress was found hanging from a bedsheet from the shower rod in her bathroom. It was initially thought to be a suicide but ultimately they arrested a guy who was doing construction in the building. I believe the guy entered her aptmt and she walked in on him as he was stealing money from her wallet. He strangled her and tied her up to the shower rod hoping it would look like a suicide.

I'm wondering if something similar could have happened here.... perhaps someone came to the home with the intention of talking to Honey but things blew up and the person strangled her, then Barry comes home...and the person figures the only way is to strangle him too and then he ties them to the pool railing to make it look like a double suicide?

It's just strange to me that they were killed by strangling/ligature. If a killer came with the intention of killing you would think they would have a gun, especially if the intent was to kill 2 people. I just don't know if this really was a planned-in-advance murder. JMO.

But LE has said that they were both targetted so I would take from that is that whoever did this intended to kill them both before going there. It wasn't robbery that was walked in on or someone coming to talk to HS and accidentally kills her. BS came home almost 3 hours after her so if someone killed her in a heated moment, I don't think the killer would sit around for 3 hours for BS to come home. IMO

 

[Twinkle]

Her car was parked near the front door but not sure that blocks entrance to the garage on the lower level. She had arthritis so it makes sense for her to park on the main floor instead of the garage where she would have to walk upstairs to the main level. Their new house was going to have an elevator which I assume was to assist her with her arthritis in the future.

I just found this screen cap which shows Barry still would had access to the underground garage. Sorry.

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[clearskies1]

But LE has said that they were both targetted so I would take from that is that whoever did this intended to kill them both before going there. It wasn't robbery that was walked in on or someone coming to talk to HS and accidentally kills her. BS came home almost 3 hours after her so if someone killed her in a heated moment, I don't think the killer would sit around for 3 hours for BS to come home. IMO

Yes, I know. Maybe the killer didn't come to the house until soon before Barry arrived. I just can't make sense of the method of killing. And I'm not so sure if we can make a lot of LE's "targeted" comment.

 

[AllyJane]

Yes, I know. Maybe the killer didn't come to the house until soon before Barry arrived. I just can't make sense of the method of killing. And I'm not so sure if we can make a lot of LE's "targeted" comment.

Sure. But the leaks said that she had her coat on (as did he). Not sure if it is true but pretty sure it wasn't disputed. So that would likely make the timing when HS came home because I am not sure why they would have her put her coat on again to kill her.

 

[human]

Didnt one of the reports indicate the belts were fastened or tightened around the necks and looped over or tied to the railing? I think I recall inferring or understanding from that that the buckle was engaged and fastened around the necks, like a belt is fastened and worn around the waist. If so, a robe belt wouldn’t have a buckle? Going from memory after reading so many posts and news articles. I’m sure someone can confirm or clarify. Tks

A belt seems too short

 

[clearskies1]

Sure. But the leaks said that she had her coat on (as did he). Not sure if it is true but pretty sure it wasn't disputed. So that would likely make the timing when HS came home because I am not sure why they would have her put her coat on again to kill her.

Oh well, I think it's a viable theory. I understand that you think it's not.