Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #7

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

I don't understand where this is coming from when LE have declared this to be a double homicide?

This forum is about discussing theories and possibilities. Some may be more possible than others, but all reasonable theories are game for discussion.

The Deorr Kunz case had I think two entire threads about the habits and hunting behavior of mountain lions. And of course there's the missing 411 discussions.

If someone isn't interested in certain theories, they can use the ignore feature or scroll & roll.

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[Wyle_E_Coyote]

...
***warning*** graphic - don't read if you'll get upset
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hired someone (or team), gave them the house keys (no forced entry)

told them where to wait for her (front door? side door?)

He leaves work 3 hours later (alibi)

Goes down the ramp into garage.

him/team are there waiting for pay.

Theory 1 (murder / murder with a twist)

Things didn't go according to plan, she's all bloody, it was supposed to be fast and clean.

Because of sloppy job, he decides to pay them less.

That enrages killer/s and kill him too.


Theory 2 (murder / accidental/involuntary death)

All went according to plan. He pays them as agreed. House keys are given back.

Lets him/them tie hands very tight then remove ties so it looks like he's been roughed up a little, and take ties with them so it will look like someone was there.

Jacket/coat is pulled down to restrain arms, sits on floor, belt around neck (not very tight), then belt wrapped around railing.

Killer/s leave the house (not sure how, haven't thought about that, maybe through garage door, so they wont have to lock the upstairs doors).

He sits there and waits to be discovered the next morning, and be "saved."

Something goes wrong, nobody went looking for them the next morning!!!

He waits and waits, sitting on that hard flooring. Hours goes by, and at some point he either falls asleep, or gets itchy, or tries to adjust position, and slides and the belt is now chocking him. He tries and tries to get up, but hands are stuck in jacket.

ALL JUST PRODUCT OF MY OVERACTIVE IMAGINATION.

Please be gentle when shooting down theories :couch: oke:

I like the 2nd one... Karma.

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[Grey-St]

Maybe it is a Canadian way to express it. But it seems weird. Bulk items? Packaged items? LE puts items into bulk and packages them as well?

Any evidence gathered is packaged in order preserve and not contaminate it. Usually in the form of labeled evidence bags.

 

[Twinkle]

This forum is about discussing theories and possibilities. Some may be more possible than others, but all reasonable theories are game for discussion.

The Deorr Kunz case had I think two entire threads about the habits and hunting behavior of mountain lions. And of course there's the missing 411 discussions.

If someone isn't interested in certain theories, they can use the ignore feature or scroll & roll.

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But it is not reasonable to discuss murder suicide when LE have stated it is a double homicide.

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[PaulR]

The proceeds from the sale would still be in the trust, plenty of fees to be charged for overseeing the money.

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Not if they run the company into the ground, which is what they were doing. Also from a fiduciary standpoint, it's better to try to diversify a bit and go with mutual funds or something. Certainly if the company continued to decline in value, the orphans would have a huge case against the trust company for not selling once they realized that they had no idea how to run a pharmaceutical company.

 

[Grey-St]

-snipped for focus-

Agree. I'm skeptical of anything that KW says, especially when it is so blatantly self serving.

It also seems odd that a dying mother would be concerned about a business that her children wouldn't be capable of running for a couple of decades, even presuming they wanted to. It's just not logical. The obvious thing to do would be to sell... a whole lot can happen to a business in 10 or 20 years. It would be far less risky to sell and invest the proceeds just to lower the risk and preserve their capital.



-snipped for focus-
BBM

I don't think it necessarily follows that she didn't respond because she didn't want him in charge of Empire. She was quite literally on her deathbed. She may very well have been incapable of responding... too sick, too medicated, too much pain...

As I noted above, I'm skeptical of any information that comes from KW.

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Couldn't this later part also be the reason why she didn't think to or have the time to set up the sale of Empire?

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

But it is not reasonable to discuss murder suicide when LE have stated it is a double homicide.

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LE said the McStay family was in Mexico.

LE said Rebecca Zahau killed herself.

In these, and many, many other threads here, the discussion of other alternatives continued.

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[casesensitive]

*********And, I am sorry if this offends anyone, it is not meant to. *******

But, when anyone retires they are often under the feet of the person who is at home. The person at home, is used to going about their day and the retiree, is often following them around like a puppy, with a 'what are we going to do now?" look on their face. THAT can be exasperating.

*******As I said, not trying to offend anyone. BUT its true.******

Although BS retired, he continued to work at Apotex.

"Sherman had stepped down as CEO in 2012, but continued to work long hours at the company he founded...".

http://business.financialpost.com/n...-apotex-resigns-to-pursue-other-opportunities

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Not if they run the company into the ground, which is what they were doing. Also from a fiduciary standpoint, it's better to try to diversify a bit and go with mutual funds or something. Certainly if the company continued to decline in value, the orphans would have a huge case against the trust company for not selling once they realized that they had no idea how to run a pharmaceutical company.

Oh, yes, agree, I think I misunderstood what you were saying... the trustees would have been wise to sell much sooner.

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[clearskies1]

I don't understand where this is coming from when LE have declared this to be a double homicide?

I don't think they declared it to be a double homicide. I believe Det-Sgt Gomes said that they had "sufficient evidence to describe it as a double homicide investigation".

 

[AllyJane]

...
***warning*** graphic - don't read if you'll get upset
===============


hired someone (or team), gave them the house keys (no forced entry)

told them where to wait for her (front door? side door?)

He leaves work 3 hours later (alibi)

Goes down the ramp into garage.

him/team are there waiting for pay.

Theory 1 (murder / murder with a twist)

Things didn't go according to plan, she's all bloody, it was supposed to be fast and clean.

Because of sloppy job, he decides to pay them less.

That enrages killer/s and kill him too.


Theory 2 (murder / accidental/involuntary death)

All went according to plan. He pays them as agreed. House keys are given back.

Lets him/them tie hands very tight then remove ties so it looks like he's been roughed up a little, and take ties with them so it will look like someone was there.

Jacket/coat is pulled down to restrain arms, sits on floor, belt around neck (not very tight), then belt wrapped around railing.

Killer/s leave the house (not sure how, haven't thought about that, maybe through garage door, so they wont have to lock the upstairs doors).

He sits there and waits to be discovered the next morning, and be "saved."

Something goes wrong, nobody went looking for them the next morning!!!

He waits and waits, sitting on that hard flooring. Hours goes by, and at some point he either falls asleep, or gets itchy, or tries to adjust position, and slides and the belt is now chocking him. He tries and tries to get up, but hands are stuck in jacket.

ALL JUST PRODUCT OF MY OVERACTIVE IMAGINATION.

Please be gentle when shooting down theories :couch: oke:

Or with BS's numerous enemies, someone killed them both. Your scenario is very complicated and unlikely considering he was killed by neck compression which is usually pretty quick vs a slower asphyxiation that you describe. I am not sure why when the LE says targetted killing that people find it difficult to understand yet the concept of a couple (that has no history of physical violence between them) suddenly has a 75 year old bookworm snap and create an elaborate plan to kill her and kill himself. Not sure why that scenario is more plausible than the evidence pointing to a targetted killing.

 

[kay74]

Murder/Suicide? Then why did both of them have marks on their wrists from being tied. He couldn't kill her with his wrists tied!

 

[AllyJane]

I don't think they declared it to be a double homicide. I believe Det-Sgt Gomes said that they had "sufficient evidence to describe it as a double homicide investigation".

From The Toronto Star Jan 26

Toronto homicide detectives have confirmed Barry and Honey Sherman were targeted and killed six weeks ago, strangled, then held upright by leather belts looped around the smooth stainless steel railing of their home’s indoor pool.

 

[Grey-St]

I don't think anyone is laughing or attacking. Every few pages, one of us who is Canadian points out that guns are extremely difficult to obtain in Canada, handguns in particular being almost unheard of. For this reason, the fact that they didn't use a gun really cannot be relied on to mean that it was unplanned or not a hit. By my understanding, that is all that was being reiterated.

I wouldn't say guns are unheard of by any stretch. It really just comes down to the circumstances of the killer(s). Did they know they right people, could they find a clean gun, etc... I really think what needs to be more focused on by folks that can't get past the cause and manner of death, is that this was a target double homicide. For whatever reason, the killer(s) wanted to use ligatures and stage the deaths to possibly look like either a murder-suicide, or a double-suicide, or staged the bodies like that for some other nefarious reason. That seems to be pretty evident at this point I'd say. JMO.

 

[kay74]

Hazel...I have exactly the same thought.Possibly she gave him an ultimatum.How many night s should she eat alone or wait till after 9.They were getting old and perhaps she wanted him to spend more time playing golf etc.By all reports he was no athlete and did not enjoy socializing.Something she said may have enraged him and cause him to lose it and accidentally kill her.To save face realizing his life was essentially over he thought he could cover it up by committing suicide with the belt and making it look like they both did.I just cant shake that thought.

While his wrists were tied!

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Couldn't this later part also be the reason why she didn't think to or have the time to set up the sale of Empire?

Yes, I can't imagine... Dying of cancer, and dealing with the grief and trauma of your spouse's sudden death, and the realization that your children will have no one and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Horrible for her.

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[hudunit]

I dont think he planned it...it just happened and he had to cover up and checked himself out.MOO

 

[brightii]

I feel sad to think that the Sherman’s lives have been dissected and analyzed in such a negative light. They are, IMO, and according to TPS, murder victims.

The way I see it is they were an elderly couple who had very different personalities that likely served them well throughout their long marriage. They each had qualities that were a good complement for the other. Normally a long marriage is celebrated and admired and yet their marriage is open game for all sorts of speculation which is so unfair, IMO, because they are not here to defend themselves. It’s also sad, IMO, because their children and loved ones have now been exposed to all the criticism online. The Sherman’s together raised a large family and that is a point of pride that should remain a part of their legacy along with their business and social successes, IMO.

BS didn’t seem the type to harbour emotional grudges from what I’ve read about him. He seemed to be a detached, intellectual guy who was quiet and philosophical and I can’t imagine him doing anything harmful to HS, the mother of his children and his lifelong partner. I’m sure they loved their family and neither would have done anything to hurt one another or their loved ones.

I sure hope there will be justice for them both so that the good, productive and meaningful lives they lived will long be remembered and honoured by their family, friends and wider community. IMO, they gave a lot of themselves in this life and they deserve to rest in peace.

All MOO.

 

[human]

:whiteflag:
It's just a theory, and it's only based on what we know so far. I know many are going to go "oh no, not again!" :waiting:

We have read about them being very different as in "opposites attract" and that works well up to a certain point. One article I read describes her as a "party animal" and he would rather go to the dentist than to another fundraiser.

For years he worked 6 days a week, and worked until late. During the family trip he would rather spend time writing his book.

So, I am wondering how things were after he retired 5 years ago, and if he was looking forward to the trip to Florida with full agenda of social engagements.

At their age, people usually think of downsizing and yet they were in the process of building a bigger house. All very exciting for her, but how about him? With all the other pressing problems he had in his mind, not being able to bury himself in work like before and having to listen to her talking about all the planning the wedding, parties, spending money, selecting tiles, curtains, windows, etc. etc., instead of purchasing an already built house, anticipating all the problems they could encounter when building the new home ... maybe he couldn't take it anymore and...

She had enough money to entertain herself while he worked. I would never discuss curtains with my husband. What for? He is as interested in curtains as I am in motorcycles. She probably consulted with designers and friends

He worked many hours a day so I doubt if he was bombarded by her at all.

And I am sure he did not find the fund raisers fun. My husband hates stuff like that so I would go with friends. Barry has to show up because they are giving millions.How often are fundraisers?

I am personalizing because I am more like Honey and my husband is like Barry, minus the billions.After being married for decades, you work it out.

And they had the money to do as they pleased. She even drove on a golfimg trip with girlfriends

Why would he care about a big house? No cleaning or maintenance for him. .

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Ok fine. How do i use the ignore feature? I really do not care to have to scroll. I'm on tapatalk. Nevermind, i found it!

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It could be worse... Wait until you're on a thread with post after post of completely irrelevant mountain lion trivia. [emoji23]

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