Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[MistyWaters]

Double post

 

[andreww]

Okay, say that 'A' conversation took place between BS and KW at a time when things were good between the two men, that BS spoke about this, AND that he wasn't joking, or otherwise just venting to another man-friend.... if what KW says IS true, AND was taken in the manner in which it was meant to be taken, BS still obviously didn't go through with it. December 2017 is how many years later, and we're to believe he endured a life of h3ll with HS all these years, until just when they were going off to celebrate the holiday season and he... planned it or snapped?
For me, having been married a number of years, and having seen other couples over the years, I CAN imagine a conversation having taken place, but in a different way than how KW presents it/understood it.
So I wonder how BS also managed to bind their wrists without leaving the binding material in the home after successful completion?

I don't believe their wrists were bound. Simple as that. Nobody, including the family's team actually saw their wrists, and nobody has described the extent of the injuries. All four wrists? Barry's wrists? Honey's wrists?

 

[MistyWaters]

<snipped to reply> He admitted to embellishing, but many people do that, and as the lie detector was sprung on him, thats a bit of dirty pool in my opinion. Kerry Winter is outspoke, someone that doesn't give a crap anymore. Does that make him mentally ill? Id be very interested in hearing the results of the assessment.

This is the first time in all my years I’ve ever heard of someone publicly disputing a cause of death, then admitting to fabrication and embellishment of “the proof” while expecting people still to believe them. It’s just not true that many people do that and most certainly it’s bound to draw questions pertaining to that person’s mental wellbeing considering the entire Fifth Estate performance, including fantasies of decapitation. McKoewn, the host, the shocked look on his face at what he was hearing during the interview expressed a thousand words.

On the topic of any similarity to WMs death, initially ruled a suicide, I’m reminded of an early comment DM made to LE. Now we know why he discouraged a murder investigation from taking place.

“He had depression in him … he carried some great sadness with him throughout life, but I never really knew what it was," Millard told police. "He never wanted to share it with me."..”

Along those lines, what’s KW problem with a murder investigation now taking place? Somebody else is eventually charged, then he can cheer on the perp who put an end to the lives of the same two people he’s publicly admitted his vicious hatred toward.

 

[JayFriend]

It’s become one reason why charges can’t always be laid quickly, even if there is a strong suspect.

That one detective is still working fulltime on the case I think is encouraging.

Exactly. A case can be investigated for a very long time. Even a cold case can be resurrected. But once charges are laid, the clock starts ticking and LE had better have all the evidence and witnesses ready to go. The investigation needs to be as complete as it will ever be.

 

[ldlager]

It’s become one reason why charges can’t always be laid quickly, even if there is a strong suspect.

That one detective is still working fulltime on the case I think is encouraging.

Only the one doing paperwork and writing warrants. Not an investigator

 

[MistyWaters]

Only the one doing paperwork and writing warrants. Not an investigator

That’s still a huge amount of investigation that’s been happening or whatever one might call it.

“Detective Yim, who was seconded to the homicide squad from one of Toronto’s police divisions, said the Sherman case has been his full-time assignment since Dec. 21, 2017. His role is to prepare search warrant applications and review information yielded by the warrants.

He told court last week that 3,700 pages of documents and 1,390 electronic files have been obtained, but would not say what they contain.”
Sherman murder probe obtains seven more search warrants | The Star

 

[deugirtni]

Only the one doing paperwork and writing warrants. Not an investigator

They do refer to him as a 'detective', does that mean anything? His salary is above $100K/year.. not so unusual these days, but when you think about it, it's still a lot of money to be paying out to have even one dedicated officer full-time on any case.. and especially if no new tips or anything have come in.. I can imagine the others would become involved again in a flash if something came up, or if something were discovered from a past piece of info.

 

[Arnie M]

Hmmmmmm ............ some of the main investigators are only working "part time" on the case

(from the article) .... Yim said “more than 50 officers have been involved in this investigation to date.” Asked by the Star during cross-examination to name all of the officers, Yim was unable to. The Star provided the names of the lead officer, Detective Sgt. Susan Gomes, and the lead investigator, Detective Brandon Price, plus the name of an additional officer. Yim agreed those officers were working on the case, but he said they were not working full-time on the Sherman probe. Crown attorney Peter Scrutton told court there was “at least one” officer working full-time on the case (Yim).

In the case of Mr Kim it sounds more like he is systematically plodding through about 5000 documents and electronic files , a major task for sure , but also make note they are still pursuing "different investigative avenues"

(from the article) ..... “The investigation is still active and ongoing,” Detective Dennis Yim told a Toronto court last week during a hearing in which the Star was seeking information on the case. “Investigators are methodically reviewing material and pursuing different investigative avenues.”

He told court last week that 3,700 pages of documents and 1,390 electronic files have been obtained, but would not say what they contain.

I am unable to see any information here that would indicate police are hot on the trail of a murderer . Rather it sounds more like they are still looking for any hint there is even one out there.

Sherman murder probe obtains seven more search warrants | The Star

 

[Arnie M]

KW’s “proof” of a M/S has already been debunked. He admitted to embellishing and fabricating his story and apparently his motive was to “hurt” the legacy of the murder victim. All that, not exactly what I’d consider a reliable source of unbiased information.

Then later media reports indicate mental health issues and the appointment of a litigation guardian. Owing to his unknown mental disability, until such time as KW does eventually pass a mental health assessment, at present he’s neither accountable nor liable for anything he says. So what is there to believe?

Barry Sherman's cousin fails lie detector test over allegation of plot to kill Honey Sherman | CBC News
“An angry and bitter cousin of Barry Sherman has failed a lie detector test after making unsubstantiated allegations that the former Apotex CEO was part of an aborted plot to kill his wife two decades ago.

Winter admits he could be seen as a suspect in the Sherman killings.

“I was betrayed. My cousin hurt me, and now I want to hurt him," Winter told The Fifth Estate.“.....

"I probably had reasons to lash out to do the dirty deed," he told The Fifth Estate's Bob McKeown. "I had nothing to do with it. I don't know who did it." ....”

.......Winter told Galianos on camera that he "embellished" part of the scheme. He also said he fabricated other parts of the story.

"He was lying, and the test results — the polygraphist — confirms that," said Michael Arntfield, a criminologist at Western University in London, Ont., who observed the polygraph test.

"I mean, why go through this whole song and dance? That's really the underlying question here."....”

.
Kerry has always acknowledged his past and his mistakes and tells us he is clean and sober for 6 years now . Today he lives as a family man and holds down a responsible job . I would tend to want to congratulate him rather than kick him.

Another thing I admire about Kerry is that he posts in his own name for all the world to see.

I also admire his brutal honesty , he does not mix words , he tells us exactly how he feels and what he thinks.

As a result he takes a lot of flak from anonymous posters who themselves hide behind fake identities and fake avatars in order to throw grenades over the wall at him

And to analyze his mental health based on a comment from a former sister-in-law who lives a long ways away is abusive

 

[deugirtni]

I would say that it is normal procedure to give updates in high profile cases. Look at the MacArthur case, the Millard case, the Bernardo case, or any other front page worthy case. Police have given one statement regarding the Danforth Shooter and journalists have been very vocal that this is not normal behaviour, and that there is more to this story that is being kept from us.

I think the difference is that in the cases noted, there is a suspect/accused they were actively working on. To our knowledge, TPS hasn't yet cracked this case... therefore, what is to report, other than to disclose their investigative work, which is not normal for them to disclose. imo.

 

[deugirtni]

.
Kerry has always acknowledged his past and his mistakes and tells us he is clean and sober for 6 years now . Today he lives as a family man and holds down a responsible job . I would tend to want to congratulate him rather than kick him.

Another thing I admire about Kerry is that he posts in his own name for all the world to see.

I also admire his brutal honesty , he does not mix words , he tells us exactly how he feels and what he thinks.

As a result he takes a lot of flak from anonymous posters who themselves hide behind fake identities and fake avatars in order to throw grenades over the wall at him

And to analyze his mental health based on a comment from a former sister-in-law who lives a long ways away is abusive

With all due respect, it seems unfair to me to suggest one of our WS members is abusive as described above.

Most all of us here hide behind fake names and avatars, as the anonymity of interactions here is part of the allure of this online forum. Conversely, it was KW's choice to be recognized as a verified insider on this thread, presumably for the express purpose OF voicing exactly how he feels and what he thinks. It is not just his 'former sister-in-law' who believes that KW's mental/emotional status may be suffering, it has been reported publicly in MSM that after undergoing a mental health assessment, he is now being represented by a legal litigation guardian; he was televised on national television openly stating that he had fantasies of wanting "to roll his head down the parking lot” when talking about the deceased, and it is a well-known fact that he has been in a legal battle for a decade with the deceased in an effort to sue for millions of dollars; it was reported in MSM that he failed a lie detector test when talking about his knowledge of BS wanting to take out a hit on his wife, and he was said to have admitted that he embellished his story.

Considering that WS runs with what is reported in MSM and not rumor from other sources, that seems to be a lot of credible information that has been contained in posts here.

Nobody suggests that KW shouldn't be congratulated on his accomplishments, or sympathized with for what happened to his parents during his childhood, however he has put himself on the line here, by spinning a tale of conspiracy from police, medical examiners, media, government officials, perhaps even the courts, in an effort to further his agenda to cast doubt on the official police stance of this having been a double homicide, when he has himself said he is a person of interest. People here can admire KW's 'brutal honesty', however making the determination of it *being* honesty is a personal opinion, just as some others might believe differently, or reserve their judgement. imo.

 

[deugirtni]

I don't believe their wrists were bound. Simple as that. Nobody, including the family's team actually saw their wrists, and nobody has described the extent of the injuries. All four wrists? Barry's wrists? Honey's wrists?

What do you figure caused the 'recent' abrasion marks on the wrists of both BS and HS during the first autopsy, causing the pathologist to remove 'all of the skin' from each of the couple's wrists?

Chiasson noticed that all of the skin had been removed from the wrists of both Barry and Honey. Present with Chiasson were three private investigators — Tom Klatt, Ray Zarb and Mike Davis — all former members of the Toronto Police homicide squad.

As Chiasson began the first autopsy, Dr. Michael Pickup entered the autopsy suite. With him, he brought a series of photographs taken at the death scene by Toronto police forensic identification officers, and also detailed photos of the bodies taken prior to the first autopsies that Pickup had performed.

The photos showed markings made by some type of rope or plastic tie that had encircled both Barry and Honey’s wrists and damaged the skin. The deduction Chiasson and the private detectives made was that their wrists had been bound prior to death. From the photos they could not determine if the hands were bound in front, or behind their backs. As to the biopsy that would determine the age of the skin abrasions on the wrists, the Star could not get answers. The photographs indicated they were recent abrasions, sources said.

Photos of the scene did not reveal any ropes or ties that could be responsible for the abrasions.

How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star

 

[andreww]

What do you figure caused the 'recent' abrasion marks on the wrists of both BS and HS during the first autopsy, causing the pathologist to remove 'all of the skin' from each of the couple's wrists?

Chiasson noticed that all of the skin had been removed from the wrists of both Barry and Honey. Present with Chiasson were three private investigators — Tom Klatt, Ray Zarb and Mike Davis — all former members of the Toronto Police homicide squad.

As Chiasson began the first autopsy, Dr. Michael Pickup entered the autopsy suite. With him, he brought a series of photographs taken at the death scene by Toronto police forensic identification officers, and also detailed photos of the bodies taken prior to the first autopsies that Pickup had performed.

The photos showed markings made by some type of rope or plastic tie that had encircled both Barry and Honey’s wrists and damaged the skin. The deduction Chiasson and the private detectives made was that their wrists had been bound prior to death. From the photos they could not determine if the hands were bound in front, or behind their backs. As to the biopsy that would determine the age of the skin abrasions on the wrists, the Star could not get answers. The photographs indicated they were recent abrasions, sources said.

Photos of the scene did not reveal any ropes or ties that could be responsible for the abrasions.

How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star

Like I have said before, consider the source for this information. It obviously didn't come from TPS, so it could only have come from Greenspan's team whose only purpose, in my opinion, was to get this classified as a double murder. Answer me this, if Barry and Honey both had obvious marks that indicated they were both bound, why would they have worked this case as a murder suicide for so long? Also remember that, if my scenario is correct, there would have been a struggle between Barry & Hone prior to Honey's death. It is quite possible that some kind of abrasion was caused during this struggle.

 

[andreww]

I think the difference is that in the cases noted, there is a suspect/accused they were actively working on. To our knowledge, TPS hasn't yet cracked this case... therefore, what is to report, other than to disclose their investigative work, which is not normal for them to disclose. imo.

Susan Gomes isn't even working this case "full time", which probably means she is not working the case at all. To me that sounds like they have absolutely nothing to go on. Nothing. No suspect, no car description, no fingerprint, footprint, or stray hair. This case is already dead, stop believing that the ominous silence may be a sign that police may be close to an arrest, it ain't going to happen.

 

[MistyWaters]

.
Kerry has always acknowledged his past and his mistakes and tells us he is clean and sober for 6 years now . Today he lives as a family man and holds down a responsible job . I would tend to want to congratulate him rather than kick him.

Another thing I admire about Kerry is that he posts in his own name for all the world to see.

I also admire his brutal honesty , he does not mix words , he tells us exactly how he feels and what he thinks.

As a result he takes a lot of flak from anonymous posters who themselves hide behind fake identities and fake avatars in order to throw grenades over the wall at him

And to analyze his mental health based on a comment from a former sister-in-law who lives a long ways away is abusive

Perhaps you haven’t followed this case very closely.

The topic of KWs mental health did not come from a SIL’s “comment”. An affidavit was filed to the court to support a mental health assessment. Subsequent media reports indicate a litigation guardian was indeed appointed to represent KW during the appeal of the civil suit.

MANDEL: Barry Sherman’s cousin Kerry Winter suffered nervous breakdown, sister-in-law tells court

 

[evenadams]

With all due respect, it seems unfair to me to suggest one of our WS members is abusive as described above.

Most all of us here hide behind fake names and avatars, as the anonymity of interactions here is part of the allure of this online forum. Conversely, it was KW's choice to be recognized as a verified insider on this thread, presumably for the express purpose OF voicing exactly how he feels and what he thinks. It is not just his 'former sister-in-law' who believes that KW's mental/emotional status may be suffering, it has been reported publicly in MSM that after undergoing a mental health assessment, he is now being represented by a legal litigation guardian; he was televised on national television openly stating that he had fantasies of wanting "to roll his head down the parking lot” when talking about the deceased, and it is a well-known fact that he has been in a legal battle for a decade with the deceased in an effort to sue for millions of dollars; it was reported in MSM that he failed a lie detector test when talking about his knowledge of BS wanting to take out a hit on his wife, and he was said to have admitted that he embellished his story.

Considering that WS runs with what is reported in MSM and not rumor from other sources, that seems to be a lot of credible information that has been contained in posts here.

Nobody suggests that KW shouldn't be congratulated on his accomplishments, or sympathized with for what happened to his parents during his childhood, however he has put himself on the line here, by spinning a tale of conspiracy from police, medical examiners, media, government officials, perhaps even the courts, in an effort to further his agenda to cast doubt on the official police stance of this having been a double homicide, when he has himself said he is a person of interest. People here can admire KW's 'brutal honesty', however making the determination of it *being* honesty is a personal opinion, just as some others might believe differently, or reserve their judgement. imo.

Very well-said. Thank you for it.

 

[MistyWaters]

Susan Gomes isn't even working this case "full time", which probably means she is not working the case at all. To me that sounds like they have absolutely nothing to go on. Nothing. No suspect, no car description, no fingerprint, footprint, or stray hair. This case is already dead, stop believing that the ominous silence may be a sign that police may be close to an arrest, it ain't going to happen.

“The investigation is still active and ongoing,” Detective Dennis Yim told a Toronto court last week during a hearing in which the Star was seeking information on the case. “Investigators are methodically reviewing material and pursuing different investigative avenues.”
Sherman murder probe obtains seven more search warrants | The Star

 

[deugirtni]

Like I have said before, consider the source for this information. It obviously didn't come from TPS, so it could only have come from Greenspan's team whose only purpose, in my opinion, was to get this classified as a double murder. Answer me this, if Barry and Honey both had obvious marks that indicated they were both bound, why would they have worked this case as a murder suicide for so long? Also remember that, if my scenario is correct, there would have been a struggle between Barry & Hone prior to Honey's death. It is quite possible that some kind of abrasion was caused during this struggle.

I realize that the source of the article was Team-Family. In that light, say we leave out Dr. Chiasson's opinions. However, for Pathologist Chiasson to make a claim that the first pathologist, Michael Pickup:
-entered the autopsy suite as Chiasson began his work,
-bringing deathscene photos
-as well as 'detailed' photos taken (presumably by Dr. Pickup or assistant(s)) prior to the first autopsies, and
-claiming that all of the wrist skin had been removed from each of the victims, and
-that the photos (presumably the 'detailed' photos taken before first autopsy) showed markings encircling the wrists of both victims, damaging the skin

Those things are being stated as fact, not opinion, and are easily refutable - and if so refuted, would severely damage Chiasson's reputation, which he has spent a lifetime building. And for what? A bit more cash, which I'm pretty certain he's fairly well paid by virtue of his job titles and employers, past and present.

From my POV, I think it is safe to say that the two specialists also conversed about the autopsies, and the wrists, and the missing skin, and why it was removed - questions would have been asked, and Dr. Pickup's presence and offerings of photographs seem to indicate that he was cooperating with Dr. Chiasson's efforts. I think we can deduce that the removed skin would have been kept as evidence. They may have even discussed thoughts on what the markings meant, although no such claim was made (publicly). Perhaps Dr. Pickup was not at liberty to go as far as expressing any such opinion, but it doesn't mean that he didn't have one, or that it was necessarily different from that of Dr. Chiasson's opinion.

We also know that biopsy testing was done ON the skin samples to determine the age of the markings, and although the government will not disclose the findings, the experienced team reported that the photos indicated they were recent. I think that likely any of us here would not be that hard pressed to make such a determination just based on simple life experience, however the official test results will wait until a trial, most likely. I'm not sure how long such test results take, or what is involved in that particular process of determining age of skin tissue damage. For all we know, those test results could have been the final deciding factor in TPS stating double homicide a month later, or at least a contributing factor?

It isn't like police made an official statement saying murder/suicide and then changed it - they did not make any statement in that regard until a month later, after saying they fully investigated while keeping an open mind to all possibilities. In the first hours after the bodies were found, I'm sure it was horrifying for neighbours and Toronto residents, and police obviously feel under pressure to calm the public and prevent mass hysteria. Their words took on meaning when people read between the lines when Det Price stated there were no outstanding suspects - but really, what kind of police work would it be if they jumped to accept the most viable explanation at first glance, without fully investigating or doing any kind of testing, not even autopsies, or questioning of people who were known to be last in the home, or people who discovered the bodies, or people who were employed to do work in the home, or personal circumstances, or or or or or?

I don't like to think this, but perhaps TPS is simply really bad at their jobs and they should have oversight from an independent party, considering all of their rather huge blunders that have come to light in recent times? imo.

Chiasson noticed that all of the skin had been removed from the wrists of both Barry and Honey. ...

As Chiasson began the first autopsy, Dr. Michael Pickup entered the autopsy suite. With him, he brought a series of photographs taken at the death scene by Toronto police forensic identification officers, and also detailed photos of the bodies taken prior to the first autopsies that Pickup had performed.

The photos showed markings ... that had encircled both Barry and Honey’s wrists and damaged the skin. ... As to the biopsy that would determine the age of the skin abrasions on the wrists, the Star could not get answers. The photographs indicated they were recent abrasions, sources said.

 

[deugirtni]

Susan Gomes isn't even working this case "full time", which probably means she is not working the case at all. To me that sounds like they have absolutely nothing to go on. Nothing. No suspect, no car description, no fingerprint, footprint, or stray hair. This case is already dead, stop believing that the ominous silence may be a sign that police may be close to an arrest, it ain't going to happen.

Not to be a WS Narc, but it is inappropriate for one member to demand that other members do.. anything. Nobody said they believe the 'ominous silence' (even though we got a bit of an update just days ago from The Star's investigative reporter who has thankfully taken an interest in this case) may be a sign of imminent arrest. I too doubt if they have a viable suspect at this time. However, just like in all the other unsolved murder cases, this 'opinion' does not equate with that it must therefore be murder/suicide. Unfortunately, for whatever reasons, some cases take years to solve or to get that tip that breaks the case, but the method and/or cause of death doesn't change due to the time it takes to solve. That is my opinion, but I won't demand that other members agree with it.

 

[deugirtni]

Susan Gomes isn't even working this case "full time", which probably means she is not working the case at all. To me that sounds like they have absolutely nothing to go on. Nothing. No suspect, no car description, no fingerprint, footprint, or stray hair. This case is already dead, stop believing that the ominous silence may be a sign that police may be close to an arrest, it ain't going to happen.

The jump from Susan Gomes not working the case fulltime, to not working the case at all, and without any substantiation to back it up, is a rather big one, isn't it? They might or they might not have 'nothing', or something, we don't know. I suppose we would have to bring the learned judge into this massive conspiracy theory if we suggest the judge lied when she was quoted to say:

"...Contrary to the applicant’s concern that it has stalled, the investigation appears to be progressing at this time."

Sherman murder probe obtains seven more search warrants | The Star