Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[andreww]

My biggest concern about this case is that as public interest fades, efforts by law enforcement will diminish and this case will just be forgotten.

Those who support the M/S theory have some validity in believing that since no information is coming out regarding the M/M scenario, there was no M/M and therefore it it was a M/S.

However I believe after all these months the TPS, if they had investigated thoroughly and realised in fact, it was a M/S they would have quietly announced that fact and closed the case. They still may do that in the coming weeks or months.

However I believe we sleuthers must keep the case alive, so to speak, until some official resolution is declared.

I believe if asked today, the TPS would say they are still investigating.

Again, money is power. The family is connected, and those connections were definitely called upon. Police are sworn to "Serve & Protect", and in this case revealing the truth does nothing to protect the public, so if the mayor, Premier or Prime minster requests a favour, what harm is there in obliging? Barry Sherman donated more money in this city than probably all but a few banks. What would be the point of ruining the mans legacy over one day of his life? Perhaps that favour equates to continued support, campaign donations, or even a new hospital or library some day. I really don't think you understand how things work in the world of big money and politics. Politicians lie, and they do it daily and straight to your face. Decisions are not made based on right and wrong, they are based on the all mighty dollar. In the past decade or so our government has increased its presence in the gabling industry and is now getting in to the marijuana business. Is that really for the good of the people? Kathleen Wynne flushed two billion dollars of our money down the toilet in order to secure two ridings in Oakville, do you really thing asking police to let this case die is that huge of a deal for her?

But whatever, continue with your theories of international espionage and corporate backstabbing because thats all they are, theories. I'll base my opinions on the trained officers who were on the scene. That officer that said there were not currently looking for any suspects was not going rogue. That was obviously the opinion of all the officers on scene, which leads me to believe that the crime scene told a pretty obvious story. The day the family hired Greenspan I said it right here on these boards, the police will be persuaded to change their minds and that will be the end of it, and to this day I am waiting to be proved wrong.

The only family member that has even said a word publicly is Kerry Winter. Listen to what he said, then see how the family, through the press claimed that he had a nervous breakdown. Why are friends and associates not speaking publicly, looking for answers? Why are police not asking the public for help or giving updates? And why has the family not offered a reward? Because everybody involved in this mess wants it to go away, and it definitely will.

 

[JDG]

I do believe the officer at the initial scene was 'going rogue' in that he made a statement without any substantiation whatsoever.

To state that a crime scene is/isnt a murder/suicide or whatever is VERY WRONG until after the coroner has done proper autopsies and has a COD/MOD.

As for the 'family' saying that KW has had a nervous breakdown, it was not the children of BS/HS, it was his late brothers' widow, the person involved in the same lawsuit as himself. KW and his brothers have been in court for many years against the Sherman family and the FACT that he has now lost his abilities to instruct a lawyer, speaks to the issue as being found to be truthful at some point.
This is not a smear against Kerry, I wish him nothing but the best.

But, to keep repeating the same old theory does not make it true.

As for the police, in general they do the best they can do to carry out their duties but they are not under any obligation to keep the public up to date on any investigation. The FACT that they are not releasing information on a daily/weekly basis does NOT mean they have deep sixed the whole thing.

You would really have to stretch to believe that EVERYONE can be bought off.

Do I believe people lie? Yes. Does money influence people? Yes.

Do police, coroners, legal beagles and ALL levels of politicians just throw their reputations out the window for a few bucks or because a deceased person WAS powerful, all at the same time?? NO

Just curious, how do you know that the family donated more money in this city than anyone other than the banks??

There are a lot of very wealthy families in Toronto who have donated a lot of money to various charities, some anonymously and many have name plaques in most of the major hospitals, causes, etc.

 

[deugirtni]

My biggest concern about this case is that as public interest fades, efforts by law enforcement will diminish and this case will just be forgotten.

Those who support the M/S theory have some validity in believing that since no information is coming out regarding the M/M scenario, there was no M/M and therefore it it was a M/S.

However I believe after all these months the TPS, if they had investigated thoroughly and realised in fact, it was a M/S they would have quietly announced that fact and closed the case. They still may do that in the coming weeks or months.

However I believe we sleuthers must keep the case alive, so to speak, until some official resolution is declared.

I believe if asked today, the TPS would say they are still investigating.

It isn't really normal for police to keep the public updated on their investigations, and this case is no different. They may not have as many working on the case, but we can safely bet they are still investigating. They have not come out to say there has been a change in the M/M statement, and I believe they would have if their further investigation had led them to a different determination than their previous determination which was publicly announced.
We will just have to sit tight, like in every other unresolved case.
imo.

 

[casesensitive]

What would be the point of ruining the mans legacy over one day of his life?

snipped by me

With all due respect, this is probably the most inane statement that you have ever made Andrew. I am poking fun at you, but I think that you would probably like to take this statement back.

 

[andreww]

I do believe the officer at the initial scene was 'going rogue' in that he made a statement without any substantiation whatsoever.

To state that a crime scene is/isnt a murder/suicide or whatever is VERY WRONG until after the coroner has done proper autopsies and has a COD/MOD.

As for the 'family' saying that KW has had a nervous breakdown, it was not the children of BS/HS, it was his late brothers' widow, the person involved in the same lawsuit as himself. KW and his brothers have been in court for many years against the Sherman family and the FACT that he has now lost his abilities to instruct a lawyer, speaks to the issue as being found to be truthful at some point.
This is not a smear against Kerry, I wish him nothing but the best.

But, to keep repeating the same old theory does not make it true.

As for the police, in general they do the best they can do to carry out their duties but they are not under any obligation to keep the public up to date on any investigation. The FACT that they are not releasing information on a daily/weekly basis does NOT mean they have deep sixed the whole thing.

You would really have to stretch to believe that EVERYONE can be bought off.

Do I believe people lie? Yes. Does money influence people? Yes.

Do police, coroners, legal beagles and ALL levels of politicians just throw their reputations out the window for a few bucks or because a deceased person WAS powerful, all at the same time?? NO

Just curious, how do you know that the family donated more money in this city than anyone other than the banks??

There are a lot of very wealthy families in Toronto who have donated a lot of money to various charities, some anonymously and many have name plaques in most of the major hospitals, causes, etc.

The officer did not go rogue. An officer will not speak publicly to the media without authorization from his superiors, and even then, he will be told exactly what he can or can't say. If he spoke off the record, it would have been noted as such, but as I recall, the statement was televised wasn't it?

No the police are not obligated to update, but as a regular follower of crime in this city, I can say without a doubt that this case is different. They are definitely MUCH quieter than they have ever been on such a high profile case.

Repeating the same old theory does not make it true, but it doesn't make it false either.

You would really have to stretch to believe that EVERYONE can be bought off? Not really. Police are like ants, each doing a very small task that is assembled later by the lead detective. I have no doubt that every person involved in this investigation, including the coroner, did exactly what they were supposed to do. I do not think that the coroner nor anyone else was privy to enough information to make any conclusions as to what actually happened. So this is just like many cases that happen every day, the conclusion isn't what they might have thought it would be, and they move on to the next case. The only people that would know the truth would be the Chief and Gomes.

Over the past decade, BS and his company have donated over $100,000,000. This does not include the addition to the Baycrest Centre that he funded, nor does it include political donations or his donations to the United Way, which he was a key supporter of. So you tell me? Who gave more?

 

[andreww]

It isn't really normal for police to keep the public updated on their investigations, and this case is no different. They may not have as many working on the case, but we can safely bet they are still investigating. They have not come out to say there has been a change in the M/M statement, and I believe they would have if their further investigation had led them to a different determination than their previous determination which was publicly announced.
We will just have to sit tight, like in every other unresolved case.
imo.

I would say that it is normal procedure to give updates in high profile cases. Look at the MacArthur case, the Millard case, the Bernardo case, or any other front page worthy case. Police have given one statement regarding the Danforth Shooter and journalists have been very vocal that this is not normal behaviour, and that there is more to this story that is being kept from us.

 

[nuff]

While we all wait for news (which may never come) - book suggestion:
Unnatural Causes, by Richard Shepherd, a UK forensic pathologist. Well-written and fascinating, with a discussion on second (and sometimes third and fourth) autopsies and the relationship of pathologists, who are often colleagues, testifying for either side in an adversarial justice system. He also speaks about the PTSD he developed later in life.

 

[Kerry Winter]

Again, money is power. The family is connected, and those connections were definitely called upon. Police are sworn to "Serve & Protect", and in this case revealing the truth does nothing to protect the public, so if the mayor, Premier or Prime minster requests a favour, what harm is there in obliging? Barry Sherman donated more money in this city than probably all but a few banks. What would be the point of ruining the mans legacy over one day of his life? Perhaps that favour equates to continued support, campaign donations, or even a new hospital or library some day. I really don't think you understand how things work in the world of big money and politics. Politicians lie, and they do it daily and straight to your face. Decisions are not made based on right and wrong, they are based on the all mighty dollar. In the past decade or so our government has increased its presence in the gabling industry and is now getting in to the marijuana business. Is that really for the good of the people? Kathleen Wynne flushed two billion dollars of our money down the toilet in order to secure two ridings in Oakville, do you really thing asking police to let this case die is that huge of a deal for her?

But whatever, continue with your theories of international espionage and corporate backstabbing because thats all they are, theories. I'll base my opinions on the trained officers who were on the scene. That officer that said there were not currently looking for any suspects was not going rogue. That was obviously the opinion of all the officers on scene, which leads me to believe that the crime scene told a pretty obvious story. The day the family hired Greenspan I said it right here on these boards, the police will be persuaded to change their minds and that will be the end of it, and to this day I am waiting to be proved wrong.

The only family member that has even said a word publicly is Kerry Winter. Listen to what he said, then see how the family, through the press claimed that he had a nervous breakdown. Why are friends and associates not speaking publicly, looking for answers? Why are police not asking the public for help or giving updates? And why has the family not offered a reward? Because everybody involved in this mess wants it to go away, and it definitely will.

Thx Andreww: the cover-up will be exposed....

 

[Kerry Winter]

I do believe the officer at the initial scene was 'going rogue' in that he made a statement without any substantiation whatsoever.

To state that a crime scene is/isnt a murder/suicide or whatever is VERY WRONG until after the coroner has done proper autopsies and has a COD/MOD.

As for the 'family' saying that KW has had a nervous breakdown, it was not the children of BS/HS, it was his late brothers' widow, the person involved in the same lawsuit as himself. KW and his brothers have been in court for many years against the Sherman family and the FACT that he has now lost his abilities to instruct a lawyer, speaks to the issue as being found to be truthful at some point.
This is not a smear against Kerry, I wish him nothing but the best.

But, to keep repeating the same old theory does not make it true.

As for the police, in general they do the best they can do to carry out their duties but they are not under any obligation to keep the public up to date on any investigation. The FACT that they are not releasing information on a daily/weekly basis does NOT mean they have deep sixed the whole thing.

You would really have to stretch to believe that EVERYONE can be bought off.

Do I believe people lie? Yes. Does money influence people? Yes.

Do police, coroners, legal beagles and ALL levels of politicians just throw their reputations out the window for a few bucks or because a deceased person WAS powerful, all at the same time?? NO

Just curious, how do you know that the family donated more money in this city than anyone other than the banks??

There are a lot of very wealthy families in Toronto who have donated a lot of money to various charities, some anonymously and many have name plaques in most of the major hospitals, causes, etc.

Sometimes....someone takes one for the team. I sat beside my sister-in-law Julia during our court of appeal hearing. The optics of dancing on my cousin’s grave wouldn’t have looked very nice to the 3 judge panel. Oh....Kerry’s crazy....that explains his behaviour. Didn’t help us overturn/lost our apoeal.
I’ve written several times on Websleuths that a story will be published in an American mag that will reveal all l know. It will explain clearly why The Fifth Estate turned on me. Why l was discredited and marginalized. I know the truth. What’s so shocking is that l’ve openly told Detective B. Price, Tom Klatt, the Globe and Mail, The Toronto Sun, The Toronto Star, Maclean’s, contacted premier Doug Ford and his attorney general to tell them what l know....and, only The Daily Mail and this upcoming mag would print the truth...my allegations. The Canadian media and their failure to report what l know is most remarkable.
I will be vindicated. Greenspan’s effort to portray me as a “nut”...that no media outlet outside of Canada would contact me and hear what l have to say/what l know has failed. Even, his effort to run interference proves to me he’s concerned.
Rest assured: this cover-up won’t succeed. The truth will come out.
I only wish during the last few months l could have shared all l know in this forum. The day is coming!
Did l mention that The Fifth Estate asked me to go on another show. Everything l know they had already filmed and NEVER showed!!!! True. Even the CBC will be exposed for their “ambush”....their set up polygraph and making me out to be the murderer. From the cover of the National Enquirer to ¥}~|]]¥=.
To you MistyWaters:

 

[Kerry Winter]

Only Andreww sees the forest from the trees. It’s been so quiet for so long: the bomb is about to drop!!!!

 

[Tripod]

Only Andreww sees the forest from the trees. It’s been so quiet for so long: the bomb is about to drop!!!!

Hope SOMEthing drops. The truth would be nice

 

[WINDSOR]

I often wonder about the great conspiracies and cover-ups, perpetrated by the rich and powerful, to keep the common man in the dark about what is really going on.

In most cases it sure seems like a waste of time and effort on the part of the 'Powers'. Most people really do not care care what happened. Ask anybody if the fact how Sherman's died makes any difference to them, and the most common answer will be. "Who?"

Even the powerful interests that Kerry alludes to really do not care. The only people who do care are us Sleuthers, and a few friends and family members of the Shermans' as they would like to see justice served.
In the this case what is the benefit to the people perpetrating the cover-up of M/S with a M/M scenario? I see no benefit in terms of money or power to justify such a cover-up.

 

[deugirtni]

I also believe it would be impossible for so many to 'know' it was a murder/suicide, but yet reported publicly as a double homicide - without it coming out. Such a thing would presume that basically nobody has integrity or standards any more. Just as one of the officers on the Toronto police force wrote a scathing letter to the mayor calling his own chief a puppet on strings, which then became public, this situation would also be leaked and come to the forefront. Many would know about it, and they'd be all talking both amongst themselves, as well as likely to their families, and it explodes from there. Human nature is such. Just my opinion, but I'm sticking to it.

 

[Satchie]

I agree about the impossibility of a mass conspiracy in modern society. For one thing, it's a highly competitive environment, people aren't raised to be loyal to a boss, like in the mafia. For sure someone would leak a conspiracy because it would serve their personal agenda to bring the conspirators down. And the media would be all over it.

Mass delusion, on the other hand, is very common.

 

[deugirtni]

I agree about the impossibility of a mass conspiracy in modern society. For one thing, it's a highly competitive environment, people aren't raised to be loyal to a boss, like in the mafia. For sure someone would leak a conspiracy because it would serve their personal agenda to bring the conspirators down. And the media would be all over it.

Mass delusion, on the other hand, is very common.

I would think it would serve more than just someone's personal agenda to expose that type and level of conspiracy.

 

[MistyWaters]

I often wonder about the great conspiracies and cover-ups, perpetrated by the rich and powerful, to keep the common man in the dark about what is really going on.

In most cases it sure seems like a waste of time and effort on the part of the 'Powers'. Most people really do not care care what happened. Ask anybody if the fact how Sherman's died makes any difference to them, and the most common answer will be. "Who?"

Even the powerful interests that Kerry alludes to really do not care. The only people who do care are us Sleuthers, and a few friends and family members of the Shermans' as they would like to see justice served.
In the this case what is the benefit to the people perpetrating the cover-up of M/S with a M/M scenario? I see no benefit in terms of money or power to justify such a cover-up.

The only benefit to a M/S scenario that I can imagine might have been to the cousins’ lawsuit if time could be wound backward and the Court had indeed allowed a civil trial to proceed because M/S or double suicide might be perceived to have occurred to intentionally prevent any fiduciary obligation to the plaintiffs. But the lawsuit had already been entirely dismissed prior to the deaths so that makes no sense either.

I suppose the only other persons who’d benefit from M/S are the murder suspects in this case who, upon conviction, could be facing a 50 year jail sentence for 2 x 1st degree murder. No targeted double murder, no crime.

Because otherwise as you suggest, there’s no benefit to the general public, as who cares if TPS has two more or two less unsolved homicides on their books.

 

[Arnie M]

.
There is certainly something hinkey going on. All the original police investigation focused on the murder of Honey (not Barry) ..... right up until the "Greenspan private investigation" .... then the police made the awkward statement they were looking at it as a double murder ..... now silence.

Investigative journalist Ann Brocklehurst pencils it out nicely in her article here ....

Why did cops investigating murders of Barry and Honey Sherman switch from murder/suicide to deouble murder scenario?

 

[MistyWaters]

.
There is certainly something hinkey going on. All the original police investigation focused on the murder of Honey (not Barry) ..... right up until the "Greenspan private investigation" .... then the police made the awkward statement they were looking at it as a double murder ..... now silence.

Investigative journalist Ann Brocklehurst pencils it out nicely in her article here ....

Why did cops investigating murders of Barry and Honey Sherman switch from murder/suicide to deouble murder scenario?

If the unknown documents that were subpoenaed were all primarily in Honey’s name because she managed their personal business dealings, then I suppose one could say “the investigation focused on the murder of Honey” because that’s the reason for the subpoena to be granted. It also explains the absence of any mention of her husband. That’s absolutely routine and nothing hinky about it whatsoever.

 

[Satchie]

If the unknown documents that were subpoenaed were all primarily in Honey’s name because she managed their personal business dealings, then I suppose one could say “the investigation focused on the murder of Honey” because that’s the reason for the subpoena to be granted. It also explains the absence of any mention of her husband. That’s absolutely routine and nothing hinky about it whatsoever.

I agree, plus we don't know whether/which subpoenas were not released.

Just because the news media picked up a few crumbs of information from below the table doesn't mean we know what kind of feast is on the table.

 

[ldlager]

I agree, plus we don't know whether/which subpoenas were not released.

Just because the news media picked up a few crumbs of information from below the table doesn't mean we know what kind of feast is on the table.

Startling revelations in the Toronto star today regarding questionable activities in the investigation by LE. Unexplained delays in interviewing Chiasson; waiting a month before viewing CCTV footage from Apotex on the day of the murder -LE didn’t even realize the video was protected by a software security feature, and had to go to Apotex a month later to obtain an unprotected copy; and waiting almost 9 months to get a DNA sample from someone known to the family who was in the house on the day of the murders. Judge is prohibiting release of any info related to the warrants, etc. And Gomes and detective Price are only working part time on the Sherman case.

Some of this stuff really makes me wonder WTF is going on with this case.