Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8
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MistyWaters
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Thanks! From your link, good to know.
“Making public the inner workings of the Sherman investigation “poses a serious risk of compromising the police investigation,” Pringle said.
As the judge who has signed off on all search warrants and production orders she said she is satisfied the probe is “active and ongoing … I can say that the police investigation appears to be extensive, meticulous and careful. Contrary to the applicant’s concern that it has stalled, the investigation appears to be progressing at this time.”..”
Lets just go back a couple of years to when Kathleen Wynne threw about 2 billion dollars down the toilet in order to secure two riding in Oakville. How many liberals came forward to speak out about that? I don't think you understand how things work in government and industry, lying is the norm rather than the exception. What you see as a blockbuster scandal, the people involved would barely bat an eyelash over. Kerry Winter, the only insider that is saying anything, tells you something and you don't believe him. What makes you think anybody would believe some random police officer? But we know you would never hear from a police officer because of the "blue line" which is never crossed. Career suicide is something that about zero percent of the population will commit, so the secret is safe.
Pretty telling statement right there. I'm waiting for the family to respond with outrage about that, but am not holding my breath. Of course, this whole charade was never about finding a killer anyway.
Kerry may be an 'insider' as far as his familial relationship with the deceased, however he is not an insider as far as the murder investigation, nor facts of this case.
KW states he has not even visited the Sherman's home. Ever. KW is a person of interest, if only by virtue of his ongoing lawsuits with the victims over the past decade, not to mention derogatory comments made about them. As a POI, he would be the last person anyone with 'inside knowledge' would be sharing classified information with, unless a tidbit (truth or lie) was shared to try to coerce him into talking about what he may or may not know about the crime.
KW knows what he himself has experienced in regard to this case.. questions he was asked, details of the lie detector test, etc. Kerry's opinion and perception of things may be biased, based on his personal ongoing history in the courts. If a POI in any other case were to tell you information conflicting with police statements in regard to murder or suicide, and the information just happened to make the POI appear not involved, would it be surprising that *that* person may not be necessarily believed? imo
What Kerry Winter can talk about is the nature of the relationship between Honey and Barry, a relationship that in the press has been lauded as nothing less than perfect. In that respect he is an insider, and when an insiders perception of the relationship differs so greatly from what is being said in the press and by friends and relatives, it makes me take notice. In that regard, he definitely is an insider.
First, I believe the Toronto Star deserves a great big thank you for pursuing information on the Sherman case, and trying to bring the police to account, and make them responsible to the public.
If there is a 'cover-up' as a few believe, this type of media investigation will discover it.
A side note regarding the gas plant in Oakville.
To the many residents in those two ridings who opposed the Gas Plant (at a cost of about $1B, not $2B), Wynne's decision to cancel the plant was an example of government being responsive to the will of the electorate in their ridings. Rightly or wrongly there was massive objections to the Gas electrical generation plant by the citizens. Personally I too feel it was the wrong choice for the Liberals; but the Oakville residents felt it was the right choice.
It was not a cover-up or a conspiracy, it was done openly and Wynne paid the price in the long run.
If there is a 'cover-up' as a few believe, this type of media investigation will discover it.
A side note regarding the gas plant in Oakville.
To the many residents in those two ridings who opposed the Gas Plant (at a cost of about $1B, not $2B), Wynne's decision to cancel the plant was an example of government being responsive to the will of the electorate in their ridings. Rightly or wrongly there was massive objections to the Gas electrical generation plant by the citizens. Personally I too feel it was the wrong choice for the Liberals; but the Oakville residents felt it was the right choice.
It was not a cover-up or a conspiracy, it was done openly and Wynne paid the price in the long run.
OH MY GOD! Seriously?
-Wynne could have avoided cancelation penalties by waiting. That did not serve her election purposes.
- Wynne's cancelation cost $230 million. Thats what she stated
- Final tally, close to a billion$
- Liberals refused to hand over correspondences regarding plant
- When they did, no emails were found that originated from the ministry of energy
- Liberals permanently deleted emails regarding the transaction.
- Liberals cancelled the Mississauga plant a week before the election.
Lets be blunt, nobody wants a power plant in their backyard. Wherever you put one, there will be opposition. Obviously significant funds were spent to decide where the plants "should be". They were NOT cancelled because it was the wrong decision to put them there, they were canceled simply to secure votes for the liberal party. That is not the way government should work, and not fair to taxpayers. If you are from Oakville, good for you, you got lucky.
MistyWaters
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KW’s “proof” of a M/S has already been debunked. He admitted to embellishing and fabricating his story and apparently his motive was to “hurt” the legacy of the murder victim. All that, not exactly what I’d consider a reliable source of unbiased information.
Then later media reports indicate mental health issues and the appointment of a litigation guardian. Owing to his unknown mental disability, until such time as KW does eventually pass a mental health assessment, at present he’s neither accountable nor liable for anything he says. So what is there to believe?
Barry Sherman's cousin fails lie detector test over allegation of plot to kill Honey Sherman | CBC News
“An angry and bitter cousin of Barry Sherman has failed a lie detector test after making unsubstantiated allegations that the former Apotex CEO was part of an aborted plot to kill his wife two decades ago.
Winter admits he could be seen as a suspect in the Sherman killings.
“I was betrayed. My cousin hurt me, and now I want to hurt him," Winter told The Fifth Estate.“.....
"I probably had reasons to lash out to do the dirty deed," he told The Fifth Estate's Bob McKeown. "I had nothing to do with it. I don't know who did it." ....”
.......Winter told Galianos on camera that he "embellished" part of the scheme. He also said he fabricated other parts of the story.
"He was lying, and the test results — the polygraphist — confirms that," said Michael Arntfield, a criminologist at Western University in London, Ont., who observed the polygraph test.
"I mean, why go through this whole song and dance? That's really the underlying question here."....”
How can KW talk about the relationship between Honey and Barry when he was on bad terms with them ever since he sued, which was.. how many years ago?
Secondly, I'm pretty sure there are times in most marriages where one or the other might have certain thoughts.. of leaving that person one way or another. Every marriage has its ebbs and flows.
Third - regardless of the above, there is nothing to say that KW speaks the truth about BS wanting a hit on his wife at one point, in fact, as mentioned just above, there is evidence that that story may be contrived.
Fourth - AND even if it wasn't contrived, it is also possible that BS, with his dry sense of humor perhaps, made a joke, yes perhaps in bad taste, thinking that it would be taken as such, and perhaps it even *was* taken as a joke, and then later, when it suited a different purpose, it was confabulated into something much different.
Fifth - I recall reading or hearing KW's particular thoughts on HS as a person, and it's safe to say that she wasn't his favorite. There are all kinds of biases and baggage here, not to mention being a POI, according to himself, with an obvious agenda in making claims of a story different from police statements.
ilovewings
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I wonder if this is going to be one of those unsolved crimes- I hope not
Also.. for those that may think there is no harm, no foul, in officially reporting a murder/suicide as a double homicide, some more thought could perhaps go into that.
For one, as has previously been discussed, there are issues in regard to Jewish rules about burials and etc... although in this day and age, hopefully that is a moot point, regardless.
I have no idea whether one or either of the couple had any life insurance, however there may be stipulations in such a policy regarding no payouts in the event of a suicide - of course this would depend on exactly when the policy was taken out, and what the actual wording says.
Also in regard to any possible life insurance - I don't believe it is possible for a murderer to collect on a life insurance policy when he murders that person who had life insurance.
Also, in regard to the 'slayer's rule', or whatever it is called - this can create one huge mess, depending on how each of the couple's Wills were worded, in regard to who goes first, and where the estate would go to, etc.
There could be so many things that are contingent upon exactly whether these killings were self inflicted, inflicted one upon the other, or inflicted by others, that police (and coroner, and government) could be setting themselves up for utterly HUGE lawsuits, should the truth ever slink out to the extent that people started being questioned under authority and matters started being investigated by parties higher up the food chain... considering the value of these peoples' estates.
It is crazy-thinking to even imagine that police could play around with this stuff, imho.
For one, as has previously been discussed, there are issues in regard to Jewish rules about burials and etc... although in this day and age, hopefully that is a moot point, regardless.
I have no idea whether one or either of the couple had any life insurance, however there may be stipulations in such a policy regarding no payouts in the event of a suicide - of course this would depend on exactly when the policy was taken out, and what the actual wording says.
Also in regard to any possible life insurance - I don't believe it is possible for a murderer to collect on a life insurance policy when he murders that person who had life insurance.
Also, in regard to the 'slayer's rule', or whatever it is called - this can create one huge mess, depending on how each of the couple's Wills were worded, in regard to who goes first, and where the estate would go to, etc.
There could be so many things that are contingent upon exactly whether these killings were self inflicted, inflicted one upon the other, or inflicted by others, that police (and coroner, and government) could be setting themselves up for utterly HUGE lawsuits, should the truth ever slink out to the extent that people started being questioned under authority and matters started being investigated by parties higher up the food chain... considering the value of these peoples' estates.
It is crazy-thinking to even imagine that police could play around with this stuff, imho.
So does this mean that there is DNA?
Wondering what new warrant " target locations" might be that are so specific they would compromise the investigation?
What may have come up to require another warrant granted (Sunday, Sept. 23) this late in the game?
Curious as to how/why the documents concerning the now dismissed m/s theory, would - if " Read out of context and in isolation, bits and pieces of information have real potential to be misleading.”
speculation, imo.rbbm.
Sherman murder probe obtains seven more search warrants | The Star
"Some targets of previous warrants — cellular telephone and banking records — were made public, but these new warrants target locations that are too specific to release without compromising the investigation, a Crown attorney told the court."
"Pringle is the go-to judge for all Sherman warrants, court heard. Four new authorizations were obtained April 16, two on June 27, and one was granted Sunday, Sept. 23."
"Why have police only recently asked for DNA samples from a person who was in the Sherman house on Wednesday, Dec. 13, the last time the couple was seen alive? The Star’s investigation has revealed that police were doing this to exclude the person (a woman who was a friend and regular visitor) from DNA found at the site."
"Citing case law, the Star pointed out that if there is an earlier theory in a case (for example, murder-suicide) that portion of the police warrant information can be released without harming the rest of the probe."
"Pringle ruled that she could not allow access even to “certain theories that may now have been discarded by police.” She said the warrant documents are too intertwined and “not easily severed into discrete parts or issues. Read out of context and in isolation, bits and pieces of information have real potential to be misleading.”
Wondering what new warrant " target locations" might be that are so specific they would compromise the investigation?
What may have come up to require another warrant granted (Sunday, Sept. 23) this late in the game?
Curious as to how/why the documents concerning the now dismissed m/s theory, would - if " Read out of context and in isolation, bits and pieces of information have real potential to be misleading.”
speculation, imo.rbbm.
Sherman murder probe obtains seven more search warrants | The Star
"Some targets of previous warrants — cellular telephone and banking records — were made public, but these new warrants target locations that are too specific to release without compromising the investigation, a Crown attorney told the court."
"Pringle is the go-to judge for all Sherman warrants, court heard. Four new authorizations were obtained April 16, two on June 27, and one was granted Sunday, Sept. 23."
"Why have police only recently asked for DNA samples from a person who was in the Sherman house on Wednesday, Dec. 13, the last time the couple was seen alive? The Star’s investigation has revealed that police were doing this to exclude the person (a woman who was a friend and regular visitor) from DNA found at the site."
"Citing case law, the Star pointed out that if there is an earlier theory in a case (for example, murder-suicide) that portion of the police warrant information can be released without harming the rest of the probe."
"Pringle ruled that she could not allow access even to “certain theories that may now have been discarded by police.” She said the warrant documents are too intertwined and “not easily severed into discrete parts or issues. Read out of context and in isolation, bits and pieces of information have real potential to be misleading.”
MistyWaters
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In Canada in the past it wasn’t unusual for defendants to wait for several years for their criminal trials to be heard by the court. The initial arrest was based on reasonable and probable cause and during the unlimited and lengthy period following, LE was able to continue to compile additional evidence.
All that changed with what’s known as the 2017 Jordan’s decision ruled by the Supreme Court of Canada, that defendants must be tried within 30 months. As a result, I’m certain LE must now conduct far greater due diligence in acquiring strong evidence prior to a arrest, in order to ensure the trial process will be concluded within that timeframe.
Whether that takes months or even years, IMO it’s better that no charges are announced rather than a guilty defendant getting off because of either weak evidence or the prosecution isn’t in a position to proceed under the rigid timeline. I’d like to think this is where the case stands at the moment.
“Under the new framework, unreasonable delay was to be presumed if proceedings topped.........30 months in superior court.”
More than 200 cases tossed over delays since Supreme Court's Jordan decision | CBC News
MistyWaters
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Right on! Although Kevin’s motions haven’t been successful, his efforts serve as a round-about means of releasing information.
In his prior August attempt to have the Sherman Estate files released, a different judge also gave him a very glowing remark.
“.....There shall be no order as to costs in this matter. I must take this opportunity to thank Mr. Donovan for the thoroughness of his materials and the skill of his presentation. Should he ever be minded to change professions, I am sure the Bar would be honoured to have him as a colleague!”
CanLII - 2018 ONSC 4706 (CanLII)
From that same ruling, interestingly the Judge agrees the family may have the reason to be fearful for their personal safety if the motive for the Sherman murders is not yet “spent”.
“By the same token, the apprehensions regarding risk, while necessarily speculative in these circumstances, are nevertheless reasonable. Without greater clarity regarding the motive underlying the crimes, it is impossible to acquire confidence that the motive is spent and might not be transported to some other who administers or is the beneficiary of the assets of the deceased.”
While I’m at it, maybe it’s just me but I thought the examples the judge gave of Open Court Principles seemed more specific than “would normally” be necessary or maybe it’s just a coincidence the Shermans were last seen alive, also on a Wednesday.
BBM
The open court principle is a fundamental one, but not every detail pertaining to the administration of justice is subject to the same degree of public interest. The names of judges hearing cases and the reasons given for deciding them are, for example, quite fundamental elements of the administration of justice. The open court principle would apply most heavily to prevent denying the public the ability to review such information. The home address of judges, the plate number of their vehicles or where they had lunch on Wednesday, on the other hand, would obviously constitute private details that would normally have no bearing on the open courts principle.“
All well and good, but the scheme to kill Honey happened when he and Barry were still getting along. As I recall Kerry told a friend about the plot back then and the friend confirmed the conversation. How exactly do you explain that? As far as Kerry having a grudge? Who could blame him? Doesn't necessarily mean that what he said is fabricated. He admitted to embellishing, but many people do that, and as the lie detector was sprung on him, thats a bit of dirty pool in my opinion. Kerry Winter is outspoke, someone that doesn't give a crap anymore. Does that make him mentally ill? Id be very interested in hearing the results of the assessment.
It puts me in mind of the recent Dellen Millard trial. Marlena Meneses lied her way through her appearance on the witness stand, nobody denies that. However there were several tidbits that she put out there that were undeniable as they were backed up by facts. One should not be so eager to throw out everything a potential witness says because parts of their story seem incredible.
Delays mean nothing until an arrest is made. The clock starts ticking then. The fact that the lead detective is only working part time on this case leads me to believe that its going nowhere but into a filing cabinet somewhere.
Okay, say that 'A' conversation took place between BS and KW at a time when things were good between the two men, that BS spoke about this, AND that he wasn't joking, or otherwise just venting to another man-friend.... if what KW says IS true, AND was taken in the manner in which it was meant to be taken, BS still obviously didn't go through with it. December 2017 is how many years later, and we're to believe he endured a life of h3ll with HS all these years, until just when they were going off to celebrate the holiday season and he... planned it or snapped?
For me, having been married a number of years, and having seen other couples over the years, I CAN imagine a conversation having taken place, but in a different way than how KW presents it/understood it.
So I wonder how BS also managed to bind their wrists without leaving the binding material in the home after successful completion?
MistyWaters
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It’s become one reason why charges can’t always be laid quickly, even if there is a strong suspect.
That one detective is still working fulltime on the case I think is encouraging.
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