Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[Deleted member 102539]

What do you figure caused the 'recent' abrasion marks on the wrists of both BS and HS during the first autopsy, causing the pathologist to remove 'all of the skin' from each of the couple's wrists?

Chiasson noticed that all of the skin had been removed from the wrists of both Barry and Honey. Present with Chiasson were three private investigators — Tom Klatt, Ray Zarb and Mike Davis — all former members of the Toronto Police homicide squad.

As Chiasson began the first autopsy, Dr. Michael Pickup entered the autopsy suite. With him, he brought a series of photographs taken at the death scene by Toronto police forensic identification officers, and also detailed photos of the bodies taken prior to the first autopsies that Pickup had performed.

The photos showed markings made by some type of rope or plastic tie that had encircled both Barry and Honey’s wrists and damaged the skin. The deduction Chiasson and the private detectives made was that their wrists had been bound prior to death. From the photos they could not determine if the hands were bound in front, or behind their backs. As to the biopsy that would determine the age of the skin abrasions on the wrists, the Star could not get answers. The photographs indicated they were recent abrasions, sources said.

Photos of the scene did not reveal any ropes or ties that could be responsible for the abrasions.

How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star

As a layman I wonder about the autopsie and remove of the skin on both their wrists. I would have thought, the underlying tissue would have been as important as the skin.

 

[MistyWaters]

The jump from Susan Gomes not working the case fulltime, to not working the case at all, and without any substantiation to back it up, is a rather big one, isn't it? They might or they might not have 'nothing', or something, we don't know. I suppose we would have to bring the learned judge into this massive conspiracy theory if we suggest the judge lied when she was quoted to say:

"...Contrary to the applicant’s concern that it has stalled, the investigation appears to be progressing at this time."

Sherman murder probe obtains seven more search warrants | The Star

I was wondering the same. Has the Judge, maybe the latest Detective working on the case and even Kevin Donovan been added to the growing list of people involved in this increasingky widespread coverup? It’s gotten huge - Federal, provincial and municipal politicians, TPS chief and various Detectives, several Cdn news organizations, Coroners, pathologists, Greenspan a defence attorney, plus the retired police officers involved in the PI team too.... a partial list at least.

Actually what strikes me as totally bizarre is why this yet unsolved targeted double homicide even attracts a conspiracy element at all —- considering three very recent Ontario cases highlighting the dire consequences of prior undetected homicides. In each instance after the first murder, the perp continued to take the lives of other innocent victims.

Dellen Millard went on to murder Tim Bosma because Laura Babcock was only considered a missing person and his father was deemed to have died by suicide.

Melissa Merritt and Christopher Fattore went on to murder Caleb Harrison because neither of his parents deaths in that same home were found suspicious.

Elizabeth Wettlaufer admitted to murdering 8 people in nursing homes and not one of those deaths was initially investigated as such.

It sometimes seems LE and the Coroners Office just never does the right thing in the eyes of the general public. They’re either criticized by some for not conducting a thorough death investigations or if they do, as in this case, they face allegations of corruption.

In Canada, even though our Justice system is built on rehabilitation as opposed to punishment, to take those who are responsible off the street for max 50 years for these murders can also save lives of future innocent victims. So imo, the outcome of this investigation will hopefully serve not only Justice to the Shermans, but it will eliminate the possibility of future deaths caused by the same perp/s.

 

[Satchie]

I think this was a very carefully thought-out plan: whatever really happened, it was staged to conceal that. Whoever did it seems to have been very determined to baffle police.

I don't absolutely rule out the possibility of M/S, given what WS knows for sure, so far. But if it was, BS was very determined to conceal it, giving no warnings, leaving no note, making no effort to ensure the bodies were discovered by appropriate persons, apparently leaving behind no evidence that could reconstruct what had happened, and, it seems, also leaving behind evidence to make it seem like double murder. So it's possible police have no choice but to classify it as double murder, and follow all leads diligently. Especially given the criticism they've been under for failing to identify Wayne Millard's death as murder.

But I don't believe it's a conspiracy to cover up an obvious M/S. I also don't believe it's possible to draw conclusions from the tiny amounts of info released to the Star. The one conspiracy LE absolutely engage in is to keep suspects in the dark about their investigation. So everyone has to be kept in the dark.

 

[andreww]

I think this was a very carefully thought-out plan: whatever really happened, it was staged to conceal that. Whoever did it seems to have been very determined to baffle police.

I don't absolutely rule out the possibility of M/S, given what WS knows for sure, so far. But if it was, BS was very determined to conceal it, giving no warnings, leaving no note, making no effort to ensure the bodies were discovered by appropriate persons, apparently leaving behind no evidence that could reconstruct what had happened, and, it seems, also leaving behind evidence to make it seem like double murder. So it's possible police have no choice but to classify it as double murder, and follow all leads diligently. Especially given the criticism they've been under for failing to identify Wayne Millard's death as murder.

But I don't believe it's a conspiracy to cover up an obvious M/S. I also don't believe it's possible to draw conclusions from the tiny amounts of info released to the Star. The one conspiracy LE absolutely engage in is to keep suspects in the dark about their investigation. So everyone has to be kept in the dark.

This is what I don't understand about the double murder theory. Why would they carry it out in that manner? Why tie wrists, then untie them? It simply doesn't make any sense. If you want to kill someone, you shoot them and leave. Every second that you spend at a murder scene increases the risk that you will leave a clue behind. I just don't buy it.

 

[JDG]

Unless you don't just want to shoot and leave. This was set up in such a way as to bring disgrace and misery to someone. And, possibly a message of sorts.
Not just death.

 

[andreww]

I was wondering the same. Has the Judge, maybe the latest Detective working on the case and even Kevin Donovan been added to the growing list of people involved in this increasingky widespread coverup? It’s gotten huge - Federal, provincial and municipal politicians, TPS chief and various Detectives, several Cdn news organizations, Coroners, pathologists, Greenspan a defence attorney, plus the retired police officers involved in the PI team too.... a partial list at least.

Actually what strikes me as totally bizarre is why this yet unsolved targeted double homicide even attracts a conspiracy element at all —- considering three very recent Ontario cases highlighting the dire consequences of prior undetected homicides. In each instance after the first murder, the perp continued to take the lives of other innocent victims.

Dellen Millard went on to murder Tim Bosma because Laura Babcock was only considered a missing person and his father was deemed to have died by suicide.

Melissa Merritt and Christopher Fattore went on to murder Caleb Harrison because neither of his parents deaths in that same home were found suspicious.

Elizabeth Wettlaufer admitted to murdering 8 people in nursing homes and not one of those deaths was initially investigated as such.

It sometimes seems LE and the Coroners Office just never does the right thing in the eyes of the general public. They’re either criticized by some for not conducting a thorough death investigations or if they do, as in this case, they face allegations of corruption.

In Canada, even though our Justice system is built on rehabilitation as opposed to punishment, to take those who are responsible off the street for max 50 years for these murders can also save lives of future innocent victims. So imo, the outcome of this investigation will hopefully serve not only Justice to the Shermans, but it will eliminate the possibility of future deaths caused by the same perp/s.

I never faulted the police in the handling of Wayne Millards death. Certainly if they had put a lot more effort in to the investigation, they might have found something. However hindsight is 20/20. What people fail to take in to account is that there are literally thousands of sudden death cases in a city as large as Toronto every year. How much manpower would be required to investigate every one of them thoroughly? So they use their best judgment, mixed with a little bit of intuition to make a quick determination. Yes, every once in a while they are going to be wrong, but there simply isn't any other option. Not such an outrageous concept.

 

[andreww]

Unless you don't just want to shoot and leave. This was set up in such a way as to bring disgrace and misery to someone. And, possibly a message of sorts.
Not just death.

How do you figure. From what I know, signs of trauma were not exactly obvious. What is the message and who is it directed at? And other than the movies, when was the last time you saw a murder like that? To me this crime is straight out of the pages of JonBenet Ramsey, a crime was committed and then bizarrely staged to look like something else. At the end of the day you can only speculate as to what is real and what isn't.

 

[andreww]

• I'd like to know what, if anything, was found under Honey's fingernails?
• I'd like to know why police originally worked this as a M/S if the wrists of both victims showed obvious signs of restraint?
• I'd like to know if the key lock box showed any signs of tampering?
• I'd like to know if either victim had defence wounds?

I think the answers to those four questions would go a long way towards telling us what actually happened here.

 

[dotr]

One thing seems clear to me at least, the person/s responsible for the deaths, did a " good job".
If it was murder meant to look like suicide, at least initially, it worked!
If it was suicide disguised as murder, that also looked plausible!
The culprit who arranged this, must have been a clever, sadistic, bizarre and dramatic person.
imo, speculation.

 

[Satchie]

How do you figure. From what I know, signs of trauma were not exactly obvious. What is the message and who is it directed at? And other than the movies, when was the last time you saw a murder like that? To me this crime is straight out of the pages of JonBenet Ramsey, a crime was committed and then bizarrely staged to look like something else. At the end of the day you can only speculate as to what is real and what isn't.

I agree. Because if it was M-S, why would BS stage his wife's body in that grotesque way? That's equally rare for M-S, as it is for double-murder.

 

[MistyWaters]

How do you figure. From what I know, signs of trauma were not exactly obvious. What is the message and who is it directed at? And other than the movies, when was the last time you saw a murder like that? To me this crime is straight out of the pages of JonBenet Ramsey, a crime was committed and then bizarrely staged to look like something else. At the end of the day you can only speculate as to what is real and what isn't.

Until the perp/s are known, it’s impossible to know what the message was supposed to be. Frankly I don’t think there even was one, other than it was initially planned to be staged as double suicide, a suicide pact, both causes of death the same, ligature of the neck, sad but hey they’re old people, maybe going senile, nothing more to live for. If Robin Williams could do it, so could they. But at some point Honey resisted and was injured but by then the perp/s could hardly walk out the door and plan another do-over at a later date. IMO that’s the simplest explanation.

 

[MistyWaters]

One thing seems clear to me at least, the person/s responsible for the deaths, did a " good job".
If it was murder meant to look like suicide, at least initially, it worked!
If it was suicide disguised as murder, that also looked plausible!
The culprit who arranged this, must have been a clever, sadistic, bizarre and dramatic person.
imo, speculation.

And extraordinarily diabolical too. Which may be why the family has good reason to request the Court not release personal details associated with the Estate files.

Any murderer walking the streets is a danger to the public, but someone who goes to such great lengths to disguise a murder like that rises to an even higher level of macabre and sadistic imo.

 

[1&2&3]

Would it be possible that KW’s mental breakdown was triggered by the fact he knew with Barry’s death, any hope of receiving a part of his company, was gone? His dreams and fight for what he perceived was stolen by Barry in not following KW’s father’s plan for the four boys future, was over.

IMO, KW was standing up for a right that he truly believed Barry had cheated he and his brothers out of. Due to BS business knowledge, he knew how to “play the game” so things would come out his way. Similar to the way many lawyers do.

 

[MistyWaters]

Would it be possible that KW’s mental breakdown was triggered by the fact he knew with Barry’s death, any hope of receiving a part of his company, was gone? His dreams and fight for what he perceived was stolen by Barry in not following KW’s father’s plan for the four boys future, was over.

IMO, KW was standing up for a right that he truly believed Barry had cheated he and his brothers out of. Due to BS business knowledge, he knew how to “play the game” so things would come out his way. Similar to the way many lawyers do.

Sure, anything’s possible. It could be that the billion dollar battle had become such a large focus of KWs life that he felt betrayed that Barry was no longer able to participate, even if it was due his death by homicide.

The lawsuit had already been dismissed without going to trial in September, 2017 and the court had awarded $300,000 in legal costs to Barry one week prior to the deaths. Years before that the cousins also lost a similar lawsuit against Royal Trust for not looking out for their interests as well. But perhaps KW believed the latest appeal would go in their favour.

'I had absolutely nothing to do with it,' Barry Sherman's cousin says | The Star

However I do have to disagree that Barry was in any position to influence the Court’s ruling by playing any game. It primarily involved basic contract law and the fact that what’s absent from contracts can’t later be enforced.

 

[Kerry Winter]

I often wonder about the great conspiracies and cover-ups, perpetrated by the rich and powerful, to keep the common man in the dark about what is really going on.

In most cases it sure seems like a waste of time and effort on the part of the 'Powers'. Most people really do not care care what happened. Ask anybody if the fact how Sherman's died makes any difference to them, and the most common answer will be. "Who?"

Even the powerful interests that Kerry alludes to really do not care. The only people who do care are us Sleuthers, and a few friends and family members of the Shermans' as they would like to see justice served.
In the this case what is the benefit to the people perpetrating the cover-up of M/S with a M/M scenario? I see no benefit in terms of money or power to justify such a cover-up.

I believe you underestimate how difficult it is for the family to accept that Barry went off the deep end......killed Honey......then, snuffed it!

 

[Kerry Winter]

.
There is certainly something hinkey going on. All the original police investigation focused on the murder of Honey (not Barry) ..... right up until the "Greenspan private investigation" .... then the police made the awkward statement they were looking at it as a double murder ..... now silence.

Investigative journalist Ann Brocklehurst pencils it out nicely in her article here ....

Why did cops investigating murders of Barry and Honey Sherman switch from murder/suicide to deouble murder scenario?

Ann....lovely lady and very smart.

 

[Kerry Winter]

First, I believe the Toronto Star deserves a great big thank you for pursuing information on the Sherman case, and trying to bring the police to account, and make them responsible to the public.

If there is a 'cover-up' as a few believe, this type of media investigation will discover it.



A side note regarding the gas plant in Oakville.
To the many residents in those two ridings who opposed the Gas Plant (at a cost of about $1B, not $2B), Wynne's decision to cancel the plant was an example of government being responsive to the will of the electorate in their ridings. Rightly or wrongly there was massive objections to the Gas electrical generation plant by the citizens. Personally I too feel it was the wrong choice for the Liberals; but the Oakville residents felt it was the right choice.

It was not a cover-up or a conspiracy, it was done openly and Wynne paid the price in the long run.

On the phone with Kevin Donovan for over an hour tonight.
He’s writing a book on the Sherman murders. Obviously, we disagree.

 

[Kerry Winter]

Hmmmmmm ............ some of the main investigators are only working "part time" on the case

(from the article) .... Yim said “more than 50 officers have been involved in this investigation to date.” Asked by the Star during cross-examination to name all of the officers, Yim was unable to. The Star provided the names of the lead officer, Detective Sgt. Susan Gomes, and the lead investigator, Detective Brandon Price, plus the name of an additional officer. Yim agreed those officers were working on the case, but he said they were not working full-time on the Sherman probe. Crown attorney Peter Scrutton told court there was “at least one” officer working full-time on the case (Yim).

In the case of Mr Kim it sounds more like he is systematically plodding through about 5000 documents and electronic files , a major task for sure , but also make note they are still pursuing "different investigative avenues"

(from the article) ..... “The investigation is still active and ongoing,” Detective Dennis Yim told a Toronto court last week during a hearing in which the Star was seeking information on the case. “Investigators are methodically reviewing material and pursuing different investigative avenues.”

He told court last week that 3,700 pages of documents and 1,390 electronic files have been obtained, but would not say what they contain.

I am unable to see any information here that would indicate police are hot on the trail of a murderer . Rather it sounds more like they are still looking for any hint there is even one out there.

Sherman murder probe obtains seven more search warrants | The Star

WEll said Arnie!

 

[Kerry Winter]

.
Kerry has always acknowledged his past and his mistakes and tells us he is clean and sober for 6 years now . Today he lives as a family man and holds down a responsible job . I would tend to want to congratulate him rather than kick him.

Another thing I admire about Kerry is that he posts in his own name for all the world to see.

I also admire his brutal honesty , he does not mix words , he tells us exactly how he feels and what he thinks.

As a result he takes a lot of flak from anonymous posters who themselves hide behind fake identities and fake avatars in order to throw grenades over the wall at him

And to analyze his mental health based on a comment from a former sister-in-law who lives a long ways away is abusive

Thx!!!!!!!

 

[deugirtni]

Would it be possible that KW’s mental breakdown was triggered by the fact he knew with Barry’s death, any hope of receiving a part of his company, was gone? His dreams and fight for what he perceived was stolen by Barry in not following KW’s father’s plan for the four boys future, was over.

IMO, KW was standing up for a right that he truly believed Barry had cheated he and his brothers out of. Due to BS business knowledge, he knew how to “play the game” so things would come out his way. Similar to the way many lawyers do.

Might I ask - what exactly was KW's father's plan for the four boys' future, which BS was not following?