Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[nuff]

That may be Donovan's opinion. Doesn't make it right. I'm not really familiar with him, so I can't speak specifically about him, but I have seen crime reporters that are simply not that passionate about what they investigate.

Kevin Donovan is a reliable top-notch investigative reporter who is, unlike Blatchford, completely objective.

 

[JDG]

What doesn't make sense is that the findings of an ex-coroner trump those of the actual coroner.

They both have the same training, one is simply retired. Please don't make 'ex' sound as if it means 'incompetent'.

The 'coroner' didn't really disagree with the findings of the 'ex', he simply had not focussed on the wrist markings. They still existed, or so it seems.

 

[MistyWaters]

What doesn't make sense is that the findings of an ex-coroner trump those of the actual coroner.

Nowhere is it reported the Coroner ever concluded a M/S occurred.

Take away all the chatter, speculation, anonymous sources and opinion. A 911 call was placed and emergency response arrived at the Sherman residence. Two bodies were discovered and their identities were first disclosed not by LE, but through Twitter. As is routine, LE announce the deaths are deemed “suspicious”, which is the exact opposite to “foul play is not suspected”.

Two days later the preliminary results of the autopsy were disclosed. The Coroner determined the cause of death for both was ligature neck compression and immediately the Homicide Team took lead in the investigation.

There are various medical journals to be found on the internet which suggest injuries sustained to the neck area may differ, depending if death by ligature neck compression was the result of suicide or homicide. I’d guess those injuries vary depending on the extent of force applied. Wrist restraints would certainly be another key element of homicide and media reports indicate the first autopsy also discovered evidence of that on both bodies.

Based only on the above, why would it be concluded the Coroner initially determined a M/S occurred and changed his mind later?

Other indications the TPS Homicide Team were investigating a double homicide upon the cause of death being determined -

• Noticing the TPS webpage, their mandate is to pursue and build homicide convictions.
• The Sherman home was retained as a Crime Scene for almost six weeks, until the day before TPS announced the double homicide. A good reason would be to sweep the large home down for fingerprints and DNA. With a M/S, what would be the point?
• Formal autopsy findings are never disclosed until toxicology results have been received. This typically takes at least 4-6 weeks in Canada.

Prior to Jan 26th, the family, close friends and associates, everyone close to the Shermans who publicly commented strongly disputed the notion of M/S. Alternatively, I wonder if anyone, even one single person other than KW was actively forwarding the theory? Because I hadn’t noticed.

 

[andreww]

Nowhere is it reported the Coroner ever concluded a M/S occurred.

Take away all the chatter, speculation, anonymous sources and opinion. A 911 call was placed and emergency response arrived at the Sherman residence. Two bodies were discovered and their identities were first disclosed not by LE, but through Twitter. As is routine, LE announce the deaths are deemed “suspicious”, which is the exact opposite to “foul play is not suspected”.

Two days later the preliminary results of the autopsy were disclosed. The Coroner determined the cause of death for both was ligature neck compression and immediately the Homicide Team took lead in the investigation.

There are various medical journals to be found on the internet which suggest injuries sustained to the neck area may differ, depending if death by ligature neck compression was the result of suicide or homicide. I’d guess those injuries vary depending on the extent of force applied. Wrist restraints would certainly be another key element of homicide and media reports indicate the first autopsy also discovered evidence of that on both bodies.

Based only on the above, why would it be concluded the Coroner initially determined a M/S occurred and changed his mind later?

Other indications the TPS Homicide Team were investigating a double homicide upon the cause of death being determined -

• Noticing the TPS webpage, their mandate is to pursue and build homicide convictions.
• The Sherman home was retained as a Crime Scene for almost six weeks, until the day before TPS announced the double homicide. A good reason would be to sweep the large home down for fingerprints and DNA. With a M/S, what would be the point?
• Formal autopsy findings are never disclosed until toxicology results have been received. This typically takes at least 4-6 weeks in Canada.

Prior to Jan 26th, the family, close friends and associates, everyone close to the Shermans who publicly commented strongly disputed the notion of M/S. Alternatively, I wonder if anyone, even one single person other than KW was actively forwarding the theory? Because I hadn’t noticed.

I think its quite evident what direction the investigation was taking given that the production orders only ever listed Honey Sherman as the only victim, even after the original autopsy. It wasn't until after the independent investigation announced their findings on the front page of every paper in the city did TPS do an about face. And, as ABro pointed out in her story, some police officers were not happy with the change in direction. As for spending well over a month in the house, you are correct, it just takes time to process everything, and this being such a high profile case, TPS wanted to be thorough. That said, the fact that there have been no arrests and the lead detective is no longer working the case full time, leads me to believe that they found absolutely nothing out of the ordinary.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think its quite evident what direction the investigation was taking given that the production orders only ever listed Honey Sherman as the only victim, even after the original autopsy. It wasn't until after the independent investigation announced their findings on the front page of every paper in the city did TPS do an about face. And, as ABro pointed out in her story, some police officers were not happy with the change in direction. As for spending well over a month in the house, you are correct, it just takes time to process everything, and this being such a high profile case, TPS wanted to be thorough. That said, the fact that there have been no arrests and the lead detective is no longer working the case full time, leads me to believe that they found absolutely nothing out of the ordinary.

The subpoenas prove nothing unless we know who they were issued too. LE isn’t required to write a book in order to have one granted. Honey’a accounts, Honey’s death is all that’s required. No mention of Barry’s death whatsoever indicates the subpoenas mentioned by the media didn’t apply to him whatsoever.

It’s important to understand the Coroner is responsible for determining two different components during the autopsy process. The cause of death and the manner of death. The cause of death was deemed to be Ligature Neck Compression but absolutely nowhere is it stated the Coroner immediately assumed that was a result of M/S. It’s helpful if your argument could be based on facts rather than your personal conclusion.

No arrests at this point in time means absolutely nothing. If you follow other cases in Canada, even in the case of spousal/domestic homicide involving one who obviously was an immediate suspect, you will notice often arrests are not made until many months or even years later. That’s just how it goes. It can take time for LE to compile compelling evidence.

We have just learned the investigation is still active so that’s a good reason for optimism, as opposed to concluding nothing is happening.
Sherman murder probe obtains seven more search warrants | The Star

 

[WINDSOR]

I have been reading the reports in the news media regarding the amount of investigative work by the TPS, that was going on in the Bruce McArthur case, unbeknownst to the public.

Just because the TPS has not said much about their investigative efforts, and in fact appear to publicly minimise what they are doing, does not mean at this time a lot of effort is being expended to make an arrest.

 

[MistyWaters]

That may be Donovan's opinion. Doesn't make it right. I'm not really familiar with him, so I can't speak specifically about him, but I have seen crime reporters that are simply not that passionate about what they investigate. They write a story simply to get a paycheque. Christie Blatchford is someone who I'd be more inclined to believe for instance. Anne Brockhurst is another that is obviously passionate, and she has written an article that openly questions LE's decision to call this a double murder. In fact, in that article she states that some of her police contacts were not happy with the change in direction of this case. So it all comes down to who you believe or trust.

Investigative reporting isn’t about “opinion”, it’s based on fact finding.

Comparing a “trusted” news sources between a professional court reporter working for MSM and an internet blogger is a real stretch.

Police sources who were not happy? What’s that about? Policeman are not MDs. Would you go to LE to help you figure out why you have a fever or for help if you accidentally fell off a ladder and broke your leg? I don’t think so. That’s also why LE is not involved in determining the cause or manner of deaths. They are not trained medical experts.

 

[JDG]

...

 

[andreww]

I have been reading the reports in the news media regarding the amount of investigative work by the TPS, that was going on in the Bruce McArthur case, unbeknownst to the public.

Just because the TPS has not said much about their investigative efforts, and in fact appear to publicly minimise what they are doing, does not mean at this time a lot of effort is being expended to make an arrest.

When the lead investigator is only working the case part time it does not bode well for an outcome. Just sayin.

 

[andreww]

Investigative reporting isn’t about “opinion”, it’s based on fact finding.

Comparing a “trusted” news sources between a professional court reporter working for MSM and an internet blogger is a real stretch.

Police sources who were not happy? What’s that about? Policeman are not MDs. Would you go to LE to help you figure out why you have a fever or for help if you accidentally fell off a ladder and broke your leg? I don’t think so. That’s also why LE is not involved in determining the cause or manner of deaths. They are not trained medical experts.

Lets not get carried away here about the coroners role. Its pretty clear that both died by strangulation. I highly doubt that it is the coroner that will rule this a suicide or a murder, he just provides a piece of the puzzle to the detective to evaluate. In this case he could shed some insight into whether he believes it was the belts that caused the neck compression or something else. He have to evaluate the injuries to Honey, check for defence wounds, fingernail scrapings, etc. But the coroner definitely isn't the one that decides if this is a murder or a suicide.

As an example, say a person laces another persons drink with a fatal dose of medication, then stages it to look like they took their own life. There would be no possible way for the coroner to determine anything but how the person died.

 

[andreww]

The subpoenas prove nothing unless we know who they were issued too. LE isn’t required to write a book in order to have one granted. Honey’a accounts, Honey’s death is all that’s required. No mention of Barry’s death whatsoever indicates the subpoenas mentioned by the media didn’t apply to him whatsoever.

It’s important to understand the Coroner is responsible for determining two different components during the autopsy process. The cause of death and the manner of death. The cause of death was deemed to be Ligature Neck Compression but absolutely nowhere is it stated the Coroner immediately assumed that was a result of M/S. It’s helpful if your argument could be based on facts rather than your personal conclusion.

No arrests at this point in time means absolutely nothing. If you follow other cases in Canada, even in the case of spousal/domestic homicide involving one who obviously was an immediate suspect, you will notice often arrests are not made until many months or even years later. That’s just how it goes. It can take time for LE to compile compelling evidence.

We have just learned the investigation is still active so that’s a good reason for optimism, as opposed to concluding nothing is happening.
Sherman murder probe obtains seven more search warrants | The Star

Look, we can just agree to disagree on this. What you say makes perfect sense except for the fact that not one warrant was issued in the name of Barry Sherman. If indeed this was a double murder, and both deaths were being investigated equally, one would expect that police would subpoena at least something using Barry's name? People wonder why, when police come under fire, how such things happened? Short answer is that too many people have blind faith in what they do. Basically they are given license to lie and withhold information from the public. Necessary in some instances, an excuse in others. Don't kid yourself, I learned many years ago that police will lie to your face and violate your rights, simply because they can.

 

[Satchie]

Isn't it possible TPS considered both M-S and Double murder as possible scenarios, as they gathered evidence? Isn't it possible the court didn't release all the subpeonas that had been issued, but only the innocuous ones concerning Honey, while the important ones concerning Barry, which could reveal the direction of the investigation, weren't released?

I think the Star has made a lot of hay by claiming incomplete information is the whole story, and they get away with it because TPS policy is not to challenge their partial stories by revealing additional facts, until it suits the TPS agenda.

I do hope this is resolved so we can learn the Star's role in all this (since it was the Star's story that riled up the family).

 

[MistyWaters]

Isn't it possible TPS considered both M-S and Double murder as possible scenarios, as they gathered evidence? Isn't it possible the court didn't release all the subpeonas that had been issued, but only the innocuous ones concerning Honey, while the important ones concerning Barry, which could reveal the direction of the investigation, weren't released?

I think the Star has made a lot of hay by claiming incomplete information is the whole story, and they get away with it because TPS policy is not to challenge their partial stories by revealing additional facts, until it suits the TPS agenda.

I do hope this is resolved so we can learn the Star's role in all this (since it was the Star's story that riled up the family).

The Toronto Sun published one of the earliest news reports on Dec 16th - “sources say police”. It wouldn’t surprise me if other media outlets who picked up the story reduced the reference to “police source” even if the source was only passing on second hand information at the onset, true or otherwise. Just a strong hunch but I think Warmington knows who that original source is.

BBM

“Officially, Toronto Police aren’t commenting on the tragedy — other than to call the deaths of one of Canada’s richest couples “suspicious.”

However, sources say police were working Friday night on the theory the demise of the billionaire Apotex founder and his wife, which has stunned the city and those who knew them, may have been a murder-suicide.”
Murder-suicide suspected in deaths of Toronto billionaire and wife | Toronto Sun

 

[MistyWaters]

Look, we can just agree to disagree on this. What you say makes perfect sense except for the fact that not one warrant was issued in the name of Barry Sherman. If indeed this was a double murder, and both deaths were being investigated equally, one would expect that police would subpoena at least something using Barry's name? People wonder why, when police come under fire, how such things happened? Short answer is that too many people have blind faith in what they do. Basically they are given license to lie and withhold information from the public. Necessary in some instances, an excuse in others. Don't kid yourself, I learned many years ago that police will lie to your face and violate your rights, simply because they can.

In the absence of any mention whatsoever of Barry Sherman’s death, the subpoenas mentioned obviously could not have pertained to records or documents in Barry’s name. That’s just how it goes - Barry and Honey Sherman were two different people and just because a spouse dies is not an automatic reason to subpoena a partners records without just cause.

Your theory would stand only if Barry was noted as involved in a M/S but that was not the case. The exact opposite - the absence of his name only proves mention of him wasn’t relative on the few subpoenas that were released by the court.

It’s just as likely LE intentionally held back subpoenaing any of Barry’s records until after the Manner of Death was formally announced, to eliminate the risk of FIPPA pre-empting their undisclosed but suspicious death investigation. LE was in an advantageous investigative position during those first few weeks by withholding information. IMO

 

[dotr]

Wondering if it is easier to first or primarily focus on HS's murder as it might provide the key to understanding what happened, as there are likely fewer people and reasons to have her murdered.
BS on the other hand, as is well documented, had many enemies and reasons for people to want him dead.
Was HS the prime target, or BS?
Were they each equally targeted for murder?

speculation, imo.

 

[Arnie M]

A logical look at some possibilities .....

It was a murder-suicide but was not pre-planned. More like a simmering disagreement that burst forth that evening and resulted in injury and death to Honey .
Barry , knowing the ramifications and consequences has to do something , he decides to exit himself as well.
He then did some "staging" .... make it look like something else .... or make it very difficult for anyone to figure out exactly what happened. Thus saving face in the eyes of family and friends.
Make it a "head-scratcher" .... cause and motive undetermined . This is exactly what we have today. Smart guy.

This is the easiest scenario to pencil out , none of it is beyond reasonable comprehension , it does not require a conspiracy theory , just a bit of setup and staging at the swimming pool rail.
All that is required is a momentary outburst of extreme anger resulting in assault. Not hard to comprehend.
.............................

On the other hand .......

Double murder requires an endless list of requirements that defy logic
~~Murderer would require access to the home ahead of time , unknown , and unseen by anyone
~~Murderer would need to intimately know the home , security , or lack of security , cameras , lack of cameras etc.
~~Murderer would require advance knowledge of the Sherman's travels and plans for that evening
~~Murderer would require advance knowledge of staff , housekeepers , plant-waterers , real estate showings , where the belts are kept etc.
~~Murderer would be vulnerable to exposure by having to lurk and hide for the several hours between when Honey and Barry arrived home , we are told they were both wearing their original daytime clothing and jackets.

If indeed it was an outsider-enemy , and if indeed it was a passionate-murderer who desired to "leave a message" he failed because no clear message can be gained by the staging by the pool.

Rather , three possible "messages" emerge , suicide-suicide , murder-suicide , murder-murder , or something else. A lot of wasted effort to create a message that does not work.

If "leaving a message" was not a requirement of the murderer , two bullets in a parking lot would have accomplished it. The Sherman's were not cloaked with security during their downtown travels and life . A bit of stalking is all that would be required.

 

[Arnie M]

Exploring the mind of Barry .......

Barry used some clever trickery when he sold the original Empire company. Nearly every business sale includes a non-compete clause.

For example if you buy an established and successful business it may include a building and real estate priced at the going rates (some value) it often has a lot of "goodwill" attached (very valuable) , it has a steady stream of clients and customers (very valuable) , it has a "good name" (very valuable)

A non-compete clause is part of a normal business sale ..... it states that if I sell you my business I will not open a new similar business across the street and compete head to head with you and undermine your chances of success. Otherwise you would never buy my business in the first place.

By splitting (legal) hairs he got away with it when starting an identical business (Apotex) by claiming Barry Sherman LLC and Barry Sherman are two different things. Technically correct but has a very bad aroma surrounding it. It certainly violates the intentions of the non-compete agreement.


And we must remember the first offer Barry made to the Empire trustees was rejected. His next offer was for more money and was accepted . In part because it also included future plans for the orphaned children and the deal was accepted by Royal Trust .

Remember that Royal Trust had the responsibility for the future of the children and Barry's "sweetener promise" of employment and share ownership appeared to satisfy the trust company .

But Barry was clever enough to add the caveat ... "only if he was still owner of the business" .

Fair enough , a careful businessman would want to protect himself from unseen circumstances. But Barry would have known full well it also released him from the future obligations and intentions such as the "sweetener clause" regarding the orphaned children which he signed with the trust company to get them to approve the original sale to him.


............

Regarding the trust company ....

Royal Trust maybe should have retained control of those proceeds (the sale of Empire) (many hundreds of thousands of dollars) They could have dispensed the proceeds on behalf of the Winter children including payments to the adoptive parents (who took on a huge responsibility) with a remainder of the funds dispensed to the children when they achieved adulthood.

Remember , back in those days (1970's) investment incomes and bank savings account interests were very high , some Government of Canada savings bonds paid 19% . If the net proceeds of the Empire sale was $300,000 even just a 10% return would be $30,000 per year , a handsome income in those days , even for a family with 5 children.

I expect that whatever the adoptive parents did with the funds was honorable , what they did is none of my business , and none of our business .

My point is that Royal Trust was obligated to take care of the future of the orphaned children. In hindsight they maybe could have done better ..... which I understand was one aspect of the legal actions taken by the Winter children . (I believe the lawsuit was against BOTH Barry Sherman and Royal Trust).

Barry sold the original Empire company without honoring the signed non-compete contact , along with the fact it removed the responsibility he signed with Royal Trust regarding the orphaned children .

By splitting (legal) hairs he got away with it by claiming Barry Sherman LLC and Barry Sherman are two different things. Technically correct but has a very bad aroma surrounding it.

The bad aroma was not enough to win the lawsuit on behalf of the orphaned Winter children , but it sure makes sense why they took the action in the first place. Not to mention that Barry and Apotex are known as the most lawyered up company in Canada. Not to mention the efforts a famous trust company would undertake to protect their good name.

The Winter children were up against a mountain of lawyers retained by billionaires .

 

[MistyWaters]

A logical look at some possibilities .....

It was a murder-suicide but was not pre-planned. More like a simmering disagreement that burst forth that evening and resulted in injury and death to Honey .
Barry , knowing the ramifications and consequences has to do something , he decides to exit himself as well.
He then did some "staging" .... make it look like something else .... or make it very difficult for anyone to figure out exactly what happened. Thus saving face in the eyes of family and friends.
Make it a "head-scratcher" .... cause and motive undetermined . This is exactly what we have today. Smart guy.

This is the easiest scenario to pencil out , none of it is beyond reasonable comprehension , it does not require a conspiracy theory , just a bit of setup and staging at the swimming pool rail.
All that is required is a momentary outburst of extreme anger resulting in assault. Not hard to comprehend.
.............................

On the other hand .......

Double murder requires an endless list of requirements that defy logic
~~Murderer would require access to the home ahead of time , unknown , and unseen by anyone
~~Murderer would need to intimately know the home , security , or lack of security , cameras , lack of cameras etc.
~~Murderer would require advance knowledge of the Sherman's travels and plans for that evening
~~Murderer would require advance knowledge of staff , housekeepers , plant-waterers , real estate showings , where the belts are kept etc.
~~Murderer would be vulnerable to exposure by having to lurk and hide for the several hours between when Honey and Barry arrived home , we are told they were both wearing their original daytime clothing and jackets.

If indeed it was an outsider-enemy , and if indeed it was a passionate-murderer who desired to "leave a message" he failed because no clear message can be gained by the staging by the pool.

Rather , three possible "messages" emerge , suicide-suicide , murder-suicide , murder-murder , or something else. A lot of wasted effort to create a message that does not work.

If "leaving a message" was not a requirement of the murderer , two bullets in a parking lot would have accomplished it. The Sherman's were not cloaked with security during their downtown travels and life . A bit of stalking is all that would be required.

One thing to remember is the Coroner (working for the Office of Chief Coroner, Ontario) supported by a team including forensic pathologists and other medical experts is responsible in determining the cause and manner of death. But it’s not their role to determine the way in which a perp/s might’ve committed the homicides. That’s the responsibility of TPS Homicide Division.

The deaths were already ruled a double homicide back in
January and we just don’t know what evidence LE has gathered so far. But I don’t think it’s fair to say a murder can’t have occured because it would’ve been too difficult. For starters, the realitors lockbox contained a house-key. Rarely do household staff work in the evenings or overnight. Once victims are held hostage with intent to murder, any evening plans become insignificant.

 

[MistyWaters]

@ JDG Was it you who mentioned it was common for high end homes in Toronto to be shown by an Open House? I remember quite a debate about the topic earlier.

I discovered there’s a different realtor’s name associated with another real estate company that appears on the original Nov/17 listing of the Sherman residence, not the same name or company that was indicated by the real estate sign. I believe it’s known as a co-listing, when two realtors are involved with the same sales listing.

One of the two realtors advertised the Open House on their public FB page, iirc it was held the end of Nov/17 almost immediately upon the home being listed. Not a realtors open house, just a regular open house for the interested public to attend. I’d have to dig up the links again but I must say I was very surprised at that. Indeed you were absolutely 100% right in your view.

Then just two weeks later the couple was murdered, again a realtor makes the discovery. I’ve always believed the house for sale provided the perp/s with opportunity in some way.

ETA: archived listing
Check out this listing on REALTOR.ca

 

[MistyWaters]

The topic of real estate lock boxes has already been mentioned regarding this case:

“A realtor’s “lock box,” which gave access to agents and their clients viewing Barry and Honey Sherman’s house, has expanded the pool of “persons of interest” in what is now officially a double murder investigation.”
Police investigation into Sherman double murder focuses on realtor’s ‘lock box’



I notice a June/18 bulletin issued to RECO real estate members emphasizing a number of key points, including a reminder of the importance of ensuring their clients acknowledge the risk associated to lock boxes. As the Shermans had planned to travel to Florida over Christmas, I’d guess maybe they weren’t unduly concerned with any risk prior to their vacation. But on the other hand, in the normal course of events it would seem prudent for a realtor to strongly suggest at most the lockbox only be in place during the homeowners absence especially if that client happened to be the 12th richest person in Canada.

Quoted from:
Lockboxes - RECO Website
At minimum, the explanation of risks should include the possibility that:

• The lockbox may be broken into to gain access to the property, which could result in theft or damage to the property;
• An unauthorized person could use the lockbox to enter the property by gaining access to the code or breaking into the lockbox;
• Keys may be lost or the lockbox may be improperly closed, allowing unauthorized access to the property; and,
• Use of a lockbox on the property may void or limit coverage under the seller’s property insurance policy. Sellers should be encouraged to contact their property insurers before agreeing to install a lockbox.